Qatar round 1 2010. RACE

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wander @ Apr 14 2010, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gotta love your theories. They are sometimes so far-fetched, you just might get something right every now and then.
Actually there is a lot of truth in Lex's assertions (2007 theories and political machinations aside). Melandri first switched to the 'stones when he was riding for Gresini, and if memory serves me correctly the only other Honda which was also Bridgestone shod was Makoto Tamada's. Crucially, the bike had not been engineered around the tyre unlike the Desmosedicci, but being a RCV211V was ultra accommodating and much easier to set up than its 800cc counterpart. The point Lex makes about rearward weight bias is very true. Now that Honda have ostensively produced a bike designed around the Bridgestone, where last year was about data, and the previous incarnations of the bike being built around the Michelins, Pedrosa and Melandri are currently struggling, because they set up their bikes to transfer weight and are unable to do this. It is common knowledge that Dovizioso on the other hand has always favoured a rearward weighted set up.

On the subject of the new found Honda speed, I was speculating that having done the maths, noone would be that worried about the engine regs given that the entire ruling was ushered in by the MSMA themselves. On reflection, I still believe that none of the key players are overtly concerned, because their engines are now designed to comfortably deliver according to the new ruling. We know that Yamaha and Ducati -the latter through reverting to a Big Bang configuration have shaved a fair bit off the top end. But Neil Spalding made a very good point during the Eurosport coverage. Ducati and Yamaha are by nature cautious. The one thing Honda have proven they can do is built a fast reliable and above all durablemotor. Quite simply, that's their territory. Perhaps the RCV212 hasn't got markedly quicker, merely that HRC engineers are confident that they needn't make any concessions to accommodate the new engine ruling unlike Yamaha and Ducati.

Yeah, I guess... OR it's the soup green that is making Melandri's eyes hurt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 14 2010, 07:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agree, it was a tall order holding off the dominance of the faster disc valve apriia's on a bike that purportedly hadn't seen so much in the way of development as a rear hugger since Kato rode it.

Rog mentioned that watching Sunday's race Dovi seemed weak on the brakes. To me that was always his main strength - he was a masterful late braker, and I recall him out braking Jorge on countless occasions. I'm sorry to say it appears Rog may well be right and the tables have turned.

I think thats a matter of riding to the bikes strengths. The Honda 250 was notoriously stable into turns and could out corner an Aprilia, so Dovi made it happen. One of the Honda motogp bikes issues has been getting into the turns, so its not a surprise Dovi can't match Rossi on the brakes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 14 2010, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>On the subject of the new found Honda speed,

I found this in Toby Moody's Qatar review on autosport, but i've not found anything else about it yet. Could be an interesting development though...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Have those engineers come up with something already that is working for Honda? Too right they have, judging by the leap it had out of the final corner, a new ‘torque-ometer' maybe having an influence in getting 235bhp to floor from a slow speed exit to a near 150 degree, second-gear corner.

Fitted around the final drive sprocket on the side of the engine, rumour has it that this device can deliver the precise amount of torque in conjunction with power at any speed, and at anytime. Far cleverer people than I will know the ins and outs of it, but having analysts to assimilate the data it creates is key.

hmmm how long before all teams have ‘torque-ometer' interesting

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 14 2010, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No need to wonder. Its not that big of a secret. Its just that nobody is willing to talk about it. Its like a family secret, everybody is willing to stay silent because it will make everybody look bad. If the truth was to come out, it would be denied. If anybody doesn't believe for one minute that the current Bstone is designed for and around Rossi's need, they are completely ignorant or utterly in denial. Its just another form of the 'Saturday night special' except worse for the rivals. Spec, yeah, its a Rossi-spec tire. Dorna eliminated the tire war, in that they also eliminated the possibility of losing control over who gets tires developed to rival the golden goose. Dorna used the threat of being banished from the series all together to get what they wanted out of Bstone. Who here who blamed the Michelins for Rossi's loss of the title would have elected him to stay with them, be patient, and develop a superior tire? Well that's what Ducati did when they went with Bstone. Once they had developed a superior tire with the maker, they were forced to hand it over to the golden child. Even worse, then the tire rival was denied access to work with Ducati to develop again a superior Michelin. Dorna isn't as dumb as we think. Period.

I don't think the tire is designed for Rossi, it's much more likely that Dorna saw the 2007 Bridgestone front tire and said "Right then. We can't allow that thing to be fully developed or we will have to completely rewrite the circuit safety rules". I think they changed the front profile which made the contact patch smaller and less aggressive at full lean. A less aggressive profile would control performance and allow the tire war to continue safely. Eventually Bridgestone designed the Rossi/Stoner front tire that had flexible edges to increase the contact patch at full lean. Michelin basically threw in the towel even when it was rumored that Ducati brokered a deal to keep them in the sport. If I remember correctly, Michelin didn't supply a bid for single supplier either.

I think Dorna changed the tires to control cornerspeed and hopefully continue the tire war, but Bridgestone either ruined it for everyone or they did some amazing engineering to maintain the advantage (depends on how you look at it). Imo, they ruined it for everyone after the GPC went to great pains at the end of 2007 to maintain a tire war.

Long story short, the relatively low performance of the front tire is the reason these bikes must have a rearward weight bias. If you overload the front, you go down in a heap. The riders keep the weight on the rear and they turn in at high speed to give the tire the appropriate g-load. This is exactly what Stoner said on Sunday. He wasn't being aggressive enough and as a result the front tire wasn't loaded properly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pigeon @ Apr 14 2010, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>hmmm how long before all teams have ‘torque-ometer' interesting

Moto Liam first discussed the device on his webshow at OTT. He actually didn't know what it was, but I believe somebody on Kropotkin's site was able to elucidate.

The torque-ometer apparently measures exactly how much power is going through the front sprocket to the rear sprocket which is different than slip detection by the wheel sensors. The torque-ometer may have other uses as well like wheelie control, engine braking, etc.

+1 lex

F1 did something similar when treads were added to get corner speeds down. Jums conspiracy therioes are hilariously entertaining!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 14 2010, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>+1 lex

F1 did something similar when treads were added to get corner speeds down. Jums conspiracy therioes are hilariously entertaining!

Did you follow the '08 season?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 14 2010, 08:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No need to wonder. Its not that big of a secret. Its just that nobody is willing to talk about it. Its like a family secret, everybody is willing to stay silent because it will make everybody look bad. If the truth was to come out, it would be denied. If anybody doesn't believe for one minute that the current Bstone is designed for and around Rossi's need, they are completely ignorant or utterly in denial. Its just another form of the 'Saturday night special' except worse for the rivals. Spec, yeah, its a Rossi-spec tire. Dorna eliminated the tire war, in that they also eliminated the possibility of losing control over who gets tires developed to rival the golden goose. Dorna used the threat of being banished from the series all together to get what they wanted out of Bstone. Who here who blamed the Michelins for Rossi's loss of the title would have elected him to stay with them, be patient, and develop a superior tire? Well that's what Ducati did when they went with Bstone. Once they had developed a superior tire with the maker, they were forced to hand it over to the golden child. Even worse, then the tire rival was denied access to work with Ducati to develop again a superior Michelin. Dorna isn't as dumb as we think. Period.
Jumkie don't tell me that you really believe on above ........, i can only hope that you are just trying to wind up boppers

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 14 2010, 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually there is a lot of truth in Lex's assertions (2007 theories and political machinations aside). Melandri first switched to the 'stones when he was riding for Gresini, and if memory serves me correctly the only other Honda which was also Bridgestone shod was Makoto Tamada's. Crucially, the bike had not been engineered around the tyre unlike the Desmosedicci, but being a RCV211V was ultra accommodating and much easier to set up than its 800cc counterpart. The point Lex makes about rearward weight bias is very true. Now that Honda have ostensively produced a bike designed around the Bridgestone, where last year was about data, and the previous incarnations of the bike being built around the Michelins, Pedrosa and Melandri are currently struggling, because they set up their bikes to transfer weight and are unable to do this. It is common knowledge that Dovizioso on the other hand has always favoured a rearward weighted set up.

On the subject of the new found Honda speed, I was speculating that having done the maths, noone would be that worried about the engine regs given that the entire ruling was ushered in by the MSMA themselves. On reflection, I still believe that none of the key players are overtly concerned, because their engines are now designed to comfortably deliver according to the new ruling. We know that Yamaha and Ducati -the latter through reverting to a Big Bang configuration have shaved a fair bit off the top end. But Neil Spalding made a very good point during the Eurosport coverage. Ducati and Yamaha are by nature cautious. The one thing Honda have proven they can do is built a fast reliable and above all durablemotor. Quite simply, that's their territory. Perhaps the RCV212 hasn't got markedly quicker, merely that HRC engineers are confident that they needn't make any concessions to accommodate the new engine ruling unlike Yamaha and Ducati.

Man, I could only hope someday you could make something I said sound so good. Hey a man can have a dream, can't he?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Apr 15 2010, 08:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did you follow the '08 season?
Yes


What's easier to beleive

the corner speeds are getting too fast, thus the safety regs for all circuits become null and void therefore millions need to be spent by all circuits re- designing their run offs. So dorna put restrictions on bridgestones development direction of this front tyre to keep things affordable and safe for all.

Or

to keep Valentino rossi winning, dorna directly influences and blackmails bridgestone into making tyres just for rossi...........

The problems with the michelins for rossi at least were much more focussed on the rear tyre anyway......A lot seem to forget that several tracks did major re-surfacing at the end of 2006, which benefitted the bridgestones enormously, one to note was laguna where all bridgestone runners performed incredibly well especially when compared to the year before.

It really depends on if your scientific and realistic or if you want to beleive that the powers that be are conspiring to make rossi win because you have a deep seeded hatred for him or overly successful people in general.......

I've just watched the race for about the 5th time, and I still can't believe that's Hayden on the bike. The riding style is right, but the bike wasn't moving like Nick was onboard. The rear was bolted to the ground and the bike was carrying more speed through the corners than Dovi's Honda.

Also, when Hayden got passed he let the person go through and then responded several laps later. It looked like someone had put Tommy or Roger Lee on the bike.

I'm not sure what Nicky has been up to this off season, but he seems like a different person.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 12 2010, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi rode amazingly well, last on the speed trap and visibly slower on the straight to almost 07 levels. He pulled out just what was required in the corners to hold them back, all of this while battling a lack of grip with fuel issues. Great stuff but nickys ride was so improved you can't go past it.

Exactly, Rossi pulled a half a second gap to second place two previous laps before last one!

lap / Gap to 2nd / Variation / To Rider / Gap to 3th / Variation / To Rider
17 / 0.088 / Dovisiozo / 0.268 / Hayden
18 / 0.918 / 0.830 / Hayden / 0.920 / 0.652 / Dovisiozo
19 / 1.152 / 0.234 / Dovisiozo / 1.499 / 0.579 / Hayden
20 / 1.656 / <span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%0.504<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100% / Dovisiozo / 1.879 / 0.380 / Hayden
21 / <u>2.197</u> / <span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%0.541<span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100% / Lorenzo / 2.225 / 0.346 / Dovisiozo
22 / 1.022 / -1.175 / Lorenzo / 1.865 / -0.360 / Dovisiozo

http://resources.motogp.com/files/results/...alysisbylap.pdf

So, all changes to the rules and regulations are made to favor Rossi. Great.

What about the mother of all changes -- the 800cc/21 liters formula.
I am waiting to hear that Honda forced it to favor Rossi

All subsequent changes depended on this one, so...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 14 2010, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've just watched the race for about the 5th time, and I still can't believe that's Hayden on the bike. The riding style is right, but the bike wasn't moving like Nick was onboard. The rear was bolted to the ground and the bike was carrying more speed through the corners than Dovi's Honda.

Also, when Hayden got passed he let the person go through and then responded several laps later. It looked like someone had put Tommy or Roger Lee on the bike.

I'm not sure what Nicky has been up to this off season, but he seems like a different person.
Lex it could have been that Nicky was in shock like a lot of his fans were, and didn't realize he had the pace to hang, maybe he will take some confidence from Qatar and we will see an agressive Hayden for the remainder of the season? I know, I know...unlikely to happen but I can dream can't I?

BTW...Nick and the offseason...my guess, not eating and getting skinny! Nick's weight(or lack of weight) could explain some performance gains at Qatar.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 15 2010, 03:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, all changes to the rules and regulations are made to favor Rossi. Great.

What about the mother of all changes -- the 800cc/21 liters formula.
I am waiting to hear that Honda forced it to favor Rossi

All subsequent changes depended on this one, so...

No J4rn0, Rossi is just the GOAT, simple! In every sense, adapting to all formulas and all changes too!

Didn’t someone miss our Bopperism?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 14 2010, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Theoretically, they tie if they are running the same lap times. When was the last time you saw 2 bikes run exact lap times, lap after lap, . Its not going to happen for numerous different reasons,with the main one being the bike that is better handling is going to be easier on the tires and is going to pull away, like Rossi and Lorenzo both did the other night when they set their fastest lap times of the race with 2-3 laps remaining.The superior handling bike saved tires and pulled the faster bikes by 3 to 4 tenths a lap, regardless of their top speed.

Yes, in theory, on a separate run they tie. In a dog fight the faster bike win unless other factors take over such as riders.
Tire wear is absolutely a factor for race development but is not part of this discussion. You assume better handling means less tire wear but that's just your assumption. It can just as well result in the opposite. It all depends on where the handling weakens/advantage are. Apex power delivery, suspension, frame..... There is definitely not one single answer to this.
Lorenzo's late charges are about to become a trade mark, Rossi hardly pulled away from anyone, but rather stayed on top of it while the others fought internally so I fail to see your point.
How about a comment on the 2 strokes where the 4 cyl were always the preferred ones?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L8Braker @ Apr 15 2010, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lex it could have been that Nicky was in shock like a lot of his fans were, and didn't realize he had the pace to hang, maybe he will take some confidence from Qatar and we will see an agressive Hayden for the remainder of the season? I know, I know...unlikely to happen but I can dream can't I?

BTW...Nick and the offseason...my guess, not eating and getting skinny! Nick's weight(or lack of weight) could explain some performance gains at Qatar.
Not only do i think that the bike is a little better for his riding style, im wondering how much the Spies factor is playing into his sudden turnaround, if it is in fact a turnaround, or an anomaly. It is easy to get into a groove [rut] where you think you are doing everything you can do and start to mentally accept what is going on.You still put in the work but not much is happening. Nicky has always fed on the adoration of the US fan and now that has been challenged, not in reality, but in his mind. A new focus or a new motivation is sometimes all it takes to turn things around.Lets wait a couple more races and see if this is a turn around.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Apr 15 2010, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No J4rn0, Rossi is just the GOAT, simple! In every sense, adapting to all formulas and all changes too!

Didn’t someone miss our Bopperism?

That wasn't my point at all, I'm not religious and not interested in GOATs and holy wars
I just stated that the 800cc class was the biggest change of them all in recent years, and it surely wasn't engineered to help Valentino Rossi -- that's all.

Babel, how many races did Ducati win in the 990 era? They were the fastest bike from day one, yet Cappers only managed six wins in four seasons. Top speed is great, no doubt. And it's certainly an exaggeration to say it falls well down the order of priorities. But I don't think there are many engineers who would place it above handling, stability and usable power.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 14 2010, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually there is a lot of truth in Lex's assertions (2007 theories and political machinations aside). Melandri first switched to the 'stones when he was riding for Gresini, and if memory serves me correctly the only other Honda which was also Bridgestone shod was Makoto Tamada's. Crucially, the bike had not been engineered around the tyre unlike the Desmosedicci, but being a RCV211V was ultra accommodating and much easier to set up than its 800cc counterpart. The point Lex makes about rearward weight bias is very true. Now that Honda have ostensively produced a bike designed around the Bridgestone, where last year was about data, and the previous incarnations of the bike being built around the Michelins, Pedrosa and Melandri are currently struggling, because they set up their bikes to transfer weight and are unable to do this. It is common knowledge that Dovizioso on the other hand has always favoured a rearward weighted set up.

On the subject of the new found Honda speed, I was speculating that having done the maths, noone would be that worried about the engine regs given that the entire ruling was ushered in by the MSMA themselves. On reflection, I still believe that none of the key players are overtly concerned, because their engines are now designed to comfortably deliver according to the new ruling. We know that Yamaha and Ducati -the latter through reverting to a Big Bang configuration have shaved a fair bit off the top end. But Neil Spalding made a very good point during the Eurosport coverage. Ducati and Yamaha are by nature cautious. The one thing Honda have proven they can do is built a fast reliable and above all durablemotor. Quite simply, that's their territory. Perhaps the RCV212 hasn't got markedly quicker, merely that HRC engineers are confident that they needn't make any concessions to accommodate the new engine ruling unlike Yamaha and Ducati.
As usual, sir, a pleasure to read.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 14 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If I remember correctly, Michelin didn't supply a bid for single supplier either.
True. Michelin have said they have no interest in a closed competition.