Qatar Motorcycle Grand Prix - Round 19

Saffa said:

Which is a complete overreaction, unless there were serious consequences, like innocent people involved etc. If you just drove your car into a wall, ditch, or whatever it was, it should be dealt with in the usual way, as it does for everyone else. The fact that some journos wanted him to apologise again and face further action was absolutely pathetic.

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I don't disagree that firing is an overreaction but I do disagree that he should apologize for his actions and face some kind of consequences. The past shows that transgressions of this nature have serious consequences as it should. Ant West ban for dirty piss and likewise Ianonne were over the top and then Pecco gets off with a not even a warning. It just doesn't make sense.

Saffa said:

I'm not saying it meant 5 laps to go. I'm saying neither you or anyone other than Gressini knows what it meant. Those are the facts.

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The fact is we know what map 8 means to ducati. Add to that the situation made the original map 8 meaning relevant gives us a good idea of what they were trying to say. I will repeat that I am very happy DiGi ignored it.

michaelm said:

Agree and disagree.

Sure he should be judged as a motogp rider on how he comports himself on track, which is more responsibly than many, while walking the walk at the end of the season 2 seasons in a row.

Agree he shouldn’t be required to be a role model off track in his early 20s either. Disagree drink driving is a minor peccadillo particularly for a guy who can probably afford a private jet let alone a limousine or uber/taxi. From accounts over the years more than a few posters on here have been wiped out by sober car drivers while riding let alone by drunk drivers.

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People in fact do make poor decisions when intoxicated, because they are intellectually compromised, not because they are morally bankrupt. And that is key. The public make a moral judgement about drunk driving which is an error in logical thinking. The general public make a wrong, blanket assumption that all people who drive drunk do so because they blithely engage in acts of depraved indifference to public safety. IMHO - those that do are in the minority. The great majority of drunk drivers are seriously troubled people with poor impulse control, exacerbated by the disinhibiting effects of alcohol.
Naturally, I agree, that anyone who is convicted of multiple counts of drunk driving should have their license revoked, not because they are bad people per se, but because they're not in control of their impulses. Alcoholism is a physical and spiritual disease. People who have Alzheimers should not be allowed to have a license either, but not because they're "bad people". But because they're incapable of safe driving.

I've been thrown off my bike and badly injured twice, both times by sober drivers who A. Didn't look where where they were going and B. Didn't bother to signal their turn. These are the motherfuckers who need to have their license revoked for a 5 year period. Again, not because they're evil, but because they're ....... stupid and thoughtless.

Keshav said:

People in fact do make poor decisions when intoxicated, because they are intellectually compromised, not because they are morally bankrupt. And that is key. The public make a moral judgement about drunk driving which is an error in logical thinking. The general public make a wrong, blanket assumption that all people who drive drunk do so because they blithely engage in acts of depraved indifference to public safety. IMHO - those that do are in the minority. The great majority of drunk drivers are seriously troubled people with poor impulse control, exacerbated by the disinhibiting effects of alcohol.
Naturally, I agree, that anyone who is convicted of multiple counts of drunk driving should have their license revoked, not because they are bad people per se, but because they're not in control of their impulses. Alcoholism is a physical and spiritual disease. People who have Alzheimers should not be allowed to have a license either, but not because they're "bad people". But because they're incapable of safe driving.

I've been thrown off my bike and badly injured twice, both times by sober drivers who A. Didn't look where where they were going and B. Didn't bother to signal their turn. These are the motherfuckers who need to have their license revoked for a 5 year period. Again, not because they're evil, but because they're ....... stupid and thoughtless.

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Agree 100%.

Keshav said:

People in fact do make poor decisions when intoxicated, because they are intellectually compromised, not because they are morally bankrupt. And that is key. People make a moral judgement about drunk driving which is an error in logical thinking. The general public make a wrong, blanket assumption that all people who drive drunk do so because they blithely engage in acts of depraved indifference to public safety. IMHO - those that do are in the minority. The great majority of drunk drivers are seriously troubled people with poor impulse control, exacerbated by the disinhibiting effects of alcohol.
Naturally, I agree, that anyone who is convicted of multiple counts of drunk driving should have their license revoked, not because they are bad people per se, but because they're not in control of their impulses. Alcoholism is a physical and spiritual disease. People who have Alzheimers should not be allowed to have a license either, but not because they're "bad people". But because they're incapable of safe driving.

I've been thrown off my bike and badly injured twice, both times by sober drivers who A. Didn't look where where they were going and B. Didn't bother to signal their turn. These are the motherfuckers who need to have their license revoked for a 5 year period. Again, not because they're evil, but because they're ....... stupid and thoughtless.

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I don't disagree with anything you said here. Where I differ is the amount of responsibility someone who drives for a living and is the face of a motorized vehicle company has in this situation. I don't think he should be fired, but steps should be taken to make sure he doesn't have a problem like alcoholism. He is a role model of young impressionable kids and has responsibility because of this. He should have made a statement about the fact he made a terrible mistake and made a bad decision. I don't think he should have been black balled for his actions but it would have gone a long way for people who are family members of victims of drunk driving had he owned up to his mistake. My biggest problem is how dorna pulled this under the rug and that isn't his fault. Its a bad look for any organization to do that and it sends the wrong message to the youth.

Ok, now that we've dealt with drunk driving, let's get back to map 8.

Throughout the history of racing, there has always been the unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of teams to influence the outcome of a race to benefit one of their drivers/riders who may be in s better or worse position depending on the out come. Historically, most fans are against this kind of shenanigans and governing bodies for the most part say they want no team orders to influence the outcome, yet mostly turn a blind eye when it happens.

That is the extreme beauty of Map8! It lets everybody off the hook. Who wants to win a championship thanks to map 8? It will be a tainted championship and reduces the value of the accomplishment.

If it means what most think it to mean......

Using Map 8 to determine the winner is cheating. Do people consider Barry Bonds to be the home run king in baseball? Most will consider his record to have an asterisk and he will never be in the Hall of Fame, because he cheated.

Bern1 said:

Ok, now that we've dealt with drunk driving, let's get back to map 8.

Throughout the history of racing, there has always been the unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of teams to influence the outcome of a race to benefit one of their drivers/riders who may be in s better or worse position depending on the out come. Historically, most fans are against this kind of shenanigans and governing bodies for the most part say they want no team orders to influence the outcome, yet mostly turn a blind eye when it happens.

That is the extreme beauty of Map8! It lets everybody off the hook. Who wants to win a championship thanks to map 8? It will be a tainted championship and reduces the value of the accomplishment.

If it means what most think it to mean......

Using Map 8 to determine the winner is cheating. Do people consider Barry Bonds to be the home run king in baseball? Most will consider his record to have an asterisk and he will never be in the Hall of Fame, because he cheated.

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Yet the Houston Astros don't have an asterisk next to their world series win. Add to that what went on in moto3 this weekend was not only shameful and a disgrace to racing, dorna is promoting the actions on their social media as great racing. Ever single comment is in agreement that what went on was total .........

MdubSTYLIE said:

Yet the Houston Astros don't have an asterisk next to their world series win. Add to that what went on in moto3 this weekend was not only shameful and a disgrace to racing, dorna is promoting the actions on their social media as great racing. Ever single comment is in agreement that what went on was total .........

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Houston SHOULD have an asterisk on that and yes, past weekend total ........ with Dorna condoning it.

Here we get into the bigger picture of a society that is devolving in front of our eyes to accept things that we all know are ........, yet accept because some with really deep pockets and no ethics want it that way and effectively render us powerless in the face of the ......... More than one instance of this will doubtless come to mind....

Bern1 said:

Ok, now that we've dealt with drunk driving, let's get back to map 8.

Throughout the history of racing, there has always been the unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of teams to influence the outcome of a race to benefit one of their drivers/riders who may be in s better or worse position depending on the out come. Historically, most fans are against this kind of shenanigans and governing bodies for the most part say they want no team orders to influence the outcome, yet mostly turn a blind eye when it happens.

That is the extreme beauty of Map8! It lets everybody off the hook. Who wants to win a championship thanks to map 8? It will be a tainted championship and reduces the value of the accomplishment.

If it means what most think it to mean......

Using Map 8 to determine the winner is cheating. Do people consider Barry Bonds to be the home run king in baseball? Most will consider his record to have an asterisk and he will never be in the Hall of Fame, because he cheated.

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This.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Yet the Houston Astros don't have an asterisk next to their world series win. Add to that what went on in moto3 this weekend was not only shameful and a disgrace to racing, dorna is promoting the actions on their social media as great racing. Ever single comment is in agreement that what went on was total .........

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I about puked every time I heard Matt Birt say; "There was no way Masia was making that turn." B fuqqin S. Masia saw he had Sasaki on the outside and stood his bike up and ran him wide. Twice. His teammate did the same thing.

Saffa said:

I'm not saying it meant 5 laps to go. I'm saying neither you or anyone other than Gressini knows what it meant. Those are the facts.

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If it really did mean 5 to go, why not just say that instead of using code? I don't recall the Map 8 race with Lorenzo so when I saw on the screen that Digi got a map 8 message I was like WTF is that?

Bern1 said:

Ok, now that we've dealt with drunk driving, let's get back to map 8.

Throughout the history of racing, there has always been the unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of teams to influence the outcome of a race to benefit one of their drivers/riders who may be in s better or worse position depending on the out come. Historically, most fans are against this kind of shenanigans and governing bodies for the most part say they want no team orders to influence the outcome, yet mostly turn a blind eye when it happens.

That is the extreme beauty of Map8! It lets everybody off the hook. Who wants to win a championship thanks to map 8? It will be a tainted championship and reduces the value of the accomplishment.

If it means what most think it to mean......

Using Map 8 to determine the winner is cheating. Do people consider Barry Bonds to be the home run king in baseball? Most will consider his record to have an asterisk and he will never be in the Hall of Fame, because he cheated.

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While I don't support brinksmanship in the nonrivalrous, nonscoring sessions like practice and qualifying, it doesn't bother me when teams deploy creative/perverse strategies in the main event. It doesn't bother me that Ducati would endeavor to send team orders, and it doesn't bother me that a rider without a contract disobeyed team orders (if that's what occurred).

Motorsport is a matter of complex incentives on the track and off the track. The reason team orders exist is because the teams run multiple bikes, and because MotoGP uses satellite bikes rather than satellite engines. The teams run multiple riders because the championship payout depends partly on their season ending position, and they need to spread risk.

Everything is related to something else. If anti-sporting behavior harms the sport, the sanctioning body must create disincentives. Perhaps the best organization in this regard is the NFL, who constantly evolve the rules to ensure that no team derives an advantage from rule-breaking or anti-competitive behavior on the field. NBA would probably be an example of the worst sport because they allow intentional fouling to delay end of game and to create an advertising windfall. Anyway, if Map8 is a problem, MotoGP needs to start far upstream to reduce the benefit. They will never be able to ban all of the code messages or pitboard signals.

We also don't know the reason Map8 was transmitted. Would Ducati really expect a satellite rider without a contract to follow a Map8 team order? Is it possible that the Gresini pit crew were having a dig at Ducati without authorization from their team managers, and without fully understanding how it would affect fan perception of the race? We don't know, and they aren't going to air their dirty laundry.

PRS717 said:

If it really did mean 5 to go, why not just say that instead of using code? I don't recall the Map 8 race with Lorenzo so when I saw on the screen that Digi got a map 8 message I was like WTF is that?

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Some of us have not forgot and turned it into a long running joke. This is from Gaz last year for the Valencia race

Gaz said:

He will ride protected.

No doubt, if needed there will be Ducati around him or who may suffer 'mapping 8' moments if Bagnaia needs it to get the title.

All he needs to do is finish and points will come

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mylexicon said:

We also don't know the reason Map8 was transmitted. Would Ducati really expect a satellite rider without a contract to follow a Map8 team order? Is it possible that the Gresini pit crew were having a dig at Ducati without authorization from their team managers, and without fully understanding how it would affect fan perception of the race? We don't know, and they aren't going to air their dirty laundry.

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In the race Lorenzo received the map 8 message Danilo did just that. He went completely off track to let Dovi through while being a satellite rider. I like the idea of it being a joke but for that to be true they would have had to know before the race that they would be following Pecco. When it would be more likely they would be following Jorge. I'll say again the message came after Pecco's lap time dropped and the opportunity presented itself to go. Which would make sense that the message meant either don't pass or go, but not 5 laps to go. That just doesn't make any sense.

We may yet get an answer to the question. If, as some say, DiGia ignored team orders to let Pecco roll, there may yet be backlash from Ducati. As to what shape that retribution might take, who knows?

Bern1 said:

We may yet get an answer to the question. If, as some say, DiGia ignored team orders to let Pecco roll, there may yet be backlash from Ducati. As to what shape that retribution might take, who knows?

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But herein lies the conundrum. What are they gonna do, fire Digi? Digi knew he was playing with house money. Gresini gave him the message so they can wash their hands of it and say Digi went rogue. Seems to me any retribution would be Ducati biting its own nose to spite its face.

PRS717 said:

But herein lies the conundrum. What are they gonna do, fire Digi? Digi knew he was playing with house money. Gresini gave him the message so they can wash their hands of it and say Digi went rogue. Seems to me any retribution would be Ducati biting its own nose to spite its face.

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Fabio doesn't want to go to WSBK according to his management (IIRC), but if he did want to try WSBK, he may have burned a bridge.

Personally, I don't understand why the riders cling to the GP paddock. I'm sure they have indominable self belief, and maybe their sponsorship contracts make it difficult to switch, but Fabio's best result prior to the hand of Michelin (or something) intervening with 8th place....on the best bike in the paddock.

Writing is on the wall for a lot of these guys. Remy did the right thing, imo, but he's not from the continent so his situation could be a bit different.

If any of that is true, I just like Digia a bit more. We'll never know. His results this year, except for the win, will hardly make any other team very excited. Add to that any Ducati intrigue and it seems doubtful he'll get any kind of ride in MotoGP. I'd hate to think that a team would turn him down because he dared defy orders and and the Ducati Big Machine but who knows.

It's Mav who is not supposed to be able to pass, isn't it??? He would have let Pecco win because well, we know he wouldn't have made the pass. (And I still like Mav, just don't ask me why!)

Bern1 said:

It's Mav who is not supposed to be able to pass, isn't it??? He would have let Pecco win because well, we know he wouldn't have made the pass. (And I still like Mav, just don't ask me why!)

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If map 8 was a person it would be Mav

I thought Qatar was a decent race. I noticed in one of the corners the Honda was just spinning the rear wheel on exit and it looked like maybe some chattering. That's a seriously bad bike. Not even sure how Marc is dragging that thing anywhere near the top ten.

Fabio rode a great race. He just had so much more speed than Pecco in the second half of the race. I'm going to be honest, I'm not high on Bagnaia. Yes he's about to become a double world champion but I don't think he's got that killer instinct the greatest riders have/had. If Marc performs on the Ducati next season, he's going to be absolutely cutthroat and a bunch of these riders haven't experienced that.

Martin I think got ...... on the tires. Who's fault it is, is a good question. Not like anyone is going to come out and take responsibility on that one. I've not been impressed by anything Michelin has done since they came back in 2016. That front tire is .... and I heard they won't have a new one till 2025? Not sure how Dorna and the FIM let that fly.

Valencia is probably going to be dull. One line circuit with these aero bikes? Oof.