Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
If that were so - Hayden wouldn't have been treated as the parts-test-dummy in '07. No?
It seems pretty clear that the board of directors at Repsol continue to be narrowly focused
on winning over their target market by way of a Spanish rider.
Exactly. Dani gets badgered into answers by the Italian and Spanish press (and remember, Suppo vs Puig is Italy vs Spain, the biggest war in the paddock, and one that never ends), while Stoner could almost be described as an ingenu, with no real understanding of the full implications his comments may have. He speaks his mind, even when sometimes it would be better not to.
Puig's role was reduced inside HRC, but Puig is a huge factor in MotoGP. Having had his wings clipped by Honda (see what I did there?) he merely shifted his attention to Repsol, and used that as leverage.
BTW, Puig gets a bad rap, one which he doesn't entirely deserve. MotoGP would be greatly diminished without Puig and his machinations, he has set up the Red Bull Rookies - which is churning out a string of talented riders of various different nationalities - he has spotted and nurtured talent, he has badgered companies into getting involved. He may be completely one-sided as a rider manager (which is his job, of course), but in a wider context, he does a lot of good things.
Similarly, Suppo achieves the same kind of long-range goals while being a bit of a snake in the paddock. If I had to compare the two, I'd say Puig was like a shark: safe enough if you keep him in front of you, and all attacks are made in the open and clearly telegraphed. Suppo is more like a snake, where you lose sight of him for a moment and he slithers up behind you, and you don't know whether he'll just slither past in a disinterested way, or whether you'll feel a sharp pain, followed by a numbing sensation that rises through your body until your heart and breathing stops.
Yes, and before. In the 125 and 250 days Stoner was quite outspoken (for his experience and stature anyway) about the likes of DeAngelis, Lorenzo and the other nutters he considered dangerous. As far as i can remember he has always respected Dani and Dani respected him, they have raced each other hard on a lot of occasions but always stay clean and totally fair.
I'm glad you have said that, because i've given him the benefit of the doubt despite all the hate that goes on here. I understand that he wants Dani to win and that he primarily nurtures Spanish riders, but i don't get this critisism of Dorna and Alberto for the amount of Spaniards in the series when its no secret that riders from other countries are subsidised into the series to widen its global appeal (look at the Brits getting the help they do). I would expect the purists to have more of an issue with this than the fact that Spain has a system that produces a lot of excellent riders.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Seeing that i love a good conspiracy, and GP has some good ones, i always looked at the rider who is in favor of a separated paddock, as the rider who knows he is getting something his team mate is not. More of a hiding of potentially scandalous data, than just not wanting to share.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
.... Pig and Soup... But at one time Pig could ride the .... out of a bike.... So .... Soupo a little more
Pig Soup
Pig Soup
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Kropo, thanks for making the time to post here. I’m very impressed with your willingness to be candid. I think you can see, for the most part we are all very passionate with various degrees of knowledge about the sport, even if that passion is over the top sometimes. I spend a lot of time here because following motorcycle racing is my hobby (perhaps addiction) which is true about many of us here. There really are few places I can go and talk GP without having to give a mini tutorial on the sport then receive enough interest on the topic to have a meaningful conversation. Even with people I disagree with here on Powerslide (and there are a few) I very much enjoy the exchange (even if its sometimes just arguing) and surreptitiously I really do appreciate them (shh don’t tell them I said the last part.)
You’ve made this point about Alberto Puig before and it made me cringe the first time, and though I was very much compelled to give my take, I did not chimed in since a few members did and basically expressed my thoughts (who honestly did it more eloquently and articulate job of it than I could have done). Since I've been so outspoken on Alberto Puig, allow me to elaborate my sentiments.
Here is what you said before which is not so different than what you say above:
I really like the anology you used with Kim Jon & Osama, very witty I might add, haha. I’ll take the liberty of using a similar analogy. Saying Alberto Puig “gets a bad rap” because without him “GP would be greatly diminished” is a bit like saying Stalin gets a bad rap because without him Russia would have never emerged into the Soviet superpower. Saying "Without Puig, there is no MotoGP." is an even bolder statement. Continuing with my analogy, sure Stalin was our “ally” during WWII, and established a certain level of “improvement” for his nation, but at what cost and was this the only way?? Conversely, I ask, must Puig’s brand of virulent modus operandi be the only path to advance GP? I’m not convinced this MO only stems from Puig's single-minded focus to advocate for his rider Dani. He’s made several very telling public statements for me to conclude they are not simply isolated incidents of brain lapse, but rather it really does reveal the man. Now I certainly don’t know the guy personally, as you may obviously know him more than about anybody here, and I’ll admit, my bias stems from being a Hayden fan; but allow me to make another comparison. Alberto’s public tirades and observed mannerism reminds me of when cops get caught on camera doing something dubious and then say how it was an isolated incident and really doesn’t represent the cop’s character (even though your eyes tell you the opposite). Puig’s had enough “isolated incidents” for me to make some conclusions; for which I imagine isn’t so far off the mark. And this is the crap that spills into the public arena, so I can only imagine the .... he must do behind closed doors with the blessing of a very powerful friend in Carmelo (who himself isn’t a saint).
Those great things you say Puig has done for the sport, are as much a function of his animalistic focus as they are from the simple fact he was given the charge to do so. That is to say, he’s the guy they picked to be the Rookies cup manager, talent scout, etc. Do you really think he’s the only guy who could competently do this? Is there nobody with passion and love for the sport, who if given the charge, the resources, and the support could do an equal or better job? (there are retired guys like Roberts Sr. & Schwantz itching to get back into the sport). If tasked to do so, could they not pull it off? Or is there a reason why Puig (busy being a manager) is the chosen one? Perhaps you may be familiar with the situation last year with the AMA? Puig reminds me a little bit of Roger Edmondson, who’s manner of advancing his sport included a high degree of arrogance & treachery. Did he advance the sport, some may say yes. (It seems this year there is a bit more parity in the AMA, and the racing has been exciting). But we really don’t know how much their arrogant methods actually hindered perhaps a greater outcome. I feel the same with Alberto Puig, sure you can point to some advancements & scouting talent (which frankly is hard to debate because we don’t know who was passed over and why), but had he been a decent person, can you say the outcome may have been worse?
Personally, I think Puig (apart from being Dani’s loyal manager) serves some greater agenda which comes from his power source. All three classes are stacked with Spanish riders, and I’m not convinced this is only where the talent pool resides. If Puig has been tasked to scout out talent, this rather skewed anomaly should give you pause to ponder (regardless that now rookies cup contestant come from various places). I don’t buy its only because its just “popular” in Spain. And for the sake of limiting the scope here, lets not even talk about the conflict of interest of managing a contestant as well as other certain personal interest while having an office with the governing body (how that even happened and continues to be allowed should be an additional clue about his power source). But that’s another topic, since it relates to Puig, it certainly relates to why such a vial man has retained his influence on the sport.
I mentioned a few other members had commented on their sentiments regarding Alberto Puig. I think you will find its not simply blind hate like Tom would like to think.
I know the guy isn't going away. But I'm not gonna accept he's just a necessary evil.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Crikey!!
Thats some problem you have there Jumkie
I think the term "blind hate" may be a but mild
Thats some problem you have there Jumkie
I think the term "blind hate" may be a but mild
Joined May 2008
3K Posts | 79+
Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
Crikey!!
Thats some problem you have there Jumkie
I think the term "blind hate" may be a but mild
Compared to the rest of this thread, that's a remarkably weak retort. At least TRY next time, eh?
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Compared to the rest of this thread, that's a remarkably weak retort. At least TRY next time, eh?
Im surprized u expected more from BM.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Nup thats some pretty messed up weirdness there. Not surprised in the pic's of Laguna Seca with Dani and that one with Puig they both looked pretty weirded out
OK, some excellent points, which deserve a few responses.
Firstly, your comparison to Stalin. That's an interesting one. Stalin was definitely a disgusting human being and a complete war criminal, but it is undeniably true that without Stalin, the Nazis wouldn't have been defeated. Stalin organized the production of the tanks and arms that kept Hitler occupied and weakened the Germans until defeat was inevitable. Admittedly, much of that loss is also down to Hitler's stubborn refusal to pull back from the Eastern Front, where he was suffering an 80% casualty rate, but Stalin kept the forces together. Of course, Stalin's rise can be traced back to the Bolshevik hijacking of the Russian Revolution, but that's an entirely different discussion altogether. Yes, the evil of Stalin was necessary to defeat the greater evil of Hitler, but that left us with the evil of Stalin to deal with.
To get back to the point: Could someone else fulfil the role that Puig plays in MotoGP? Yes they could. However, the problem is that nobody has stepped forward to do so. Puig was not asked to run the Red Bull Rookies Cup, he schemed, pressured and manipulated behind the scenes to make it happen. In fact, he pushed for the RB Rookies to happen because the Grand Prix Academy was producing so many Spaniards, and he understood (along with Ezpeleta) that the series needs more nationalities.
So why are there so many Spaniards in the series? Is this down to Puig? To my mind, the dominance of the Spaniards is caused by the growing importance of the Spanish 125cc championship. The other national championships have been waning over the past 15 years, even the level of the Italian championship is pretty miserable. Look at Lorenzo Savadori, who walked the 125cc title, but is way down the field in the 125cc World Championship. Spanish wildcard riders coming in from the CEV are scoring points and threatening the top 10, something that other wildcards simply cannot do. The CEV has become the de facto talent pool for 125cc (and now Moto2) talent, because it's well organized, well funded, has a full and active schedule and a highly competitive field. The fact that Dorna runs it suggests that they understand how to run a racing series, and make money out of it.
So with too many Spaniards coming through from the CEV and into the Grand Prix Academy, Puig, together with Clifford and Auinger, put together the Red Bull Rookies Cup. An American won it this year, and there are currently a Frenchman, a Norwegian, a Spaniard, a Czech and a German racing in the 125 world championships who came out of the RBR. This is a huge change for the better.
You say that there are many others who would like to get involved and could do Puig's job. True, but why isn't Kenny Sr running a similar program? Kevin Schwantz - to his credit - got involved in the RBR in the US, and is now fully involved in the international RBR. But why isn't Giacomo Agostini or Marco Lucchinelli running an Italian talent-scouting program? Why isn't Niall Mackenzie, Carl Fogarty or Neil Hodgson running a British program? Where's Jean-Philippe Ruggia or Jean-Michel Bayle?
Apparently they cannot muster either the enthusiasm, motivation, funding or organizational skills to put such a program together. Puig can, and has. Talk is cheap among old motorcycle racers, around the paddock and across the internet, but actually getting off your arse and organizing .... is much much tougher. Puig did so, others haven't.
Yes, Puig is an arsehole, and a manipulative, lying, scheming troll. But he gets .... done. Now, Hitler built one of the most remarkable networks of roads the world has ever seen, and made the trains run on time. The question you have to ask is, do you want the trains to run on time or not? If you don't want Puig to be running things, that's fine, but they won't get done if he doesn't do them, because nobody is stepping up to take his place. And those that could step up to take his place are just as evil, scheming and manipulative. The paddock isn't full of great, honest, hard-working people all ready to pull together and make the world a better place for motorcycle racing. It's full of lying, conniving, thieving, scheming, incompetent, back-stabbing scum out to make a quick buck. It also contains a surprisingly large number of competent and likable people, though as I have an extraordinarily low opinion of human beings, any number greater than zero qualifies as "surprisingly large." The reason for my low opinion of the human race, I might add, is basing my opinion on myself. If I'm the last, best hope of mankind, we're .......
Excellent points krop, another who has done fook all is Mick Doohan, the Australian SBK series is constantly on the verge of collapse.
Joined Oct 2006
3K Posts | 34+
Tar Heel State
Pay attention to Krop and Jum's post's ladies and gentlemen that's how it's done, no calling one out because of their nationality, sexual preference, or lack of knowledge on World events, Just two guys agreeing to disagree sort of and giving everyone lots of insight into Puig.
thanks guys, enjoyed reading those posts.
thanks guys, enjoyed reading those posts.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
In your experience, is this true in motorcycle racing in general, or is it mainly GP.
This is true in business in general, but more so in motorcycle racing, especially so in GP. Anywhere where there's glamour and perceived value.
Just to emphasize, business everywhere is an unsavory affair, and the more glamor there is attached to an industry, the more chancers and snake oil salesmen jump in.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Thats a pretty jaded look at the world. There are plenty of hard working business people in this world who are not lying, conniving, thieving, scheming, incompetent, back-stabbing scum . They are out to make a buck, but who isnt..
True enough, and I'm one of them, but business is not easy anywhere. As I said, the more glamor, the worse the excesses, which is why TV, the music industry, F1, fashion, MotoGP, advertising and a host of other industries tend to be nests of vipers. I think compared to the music industry, MotoGP's pretty good, but compared to, say, your local bike shop, MotoGP is Sodom and Gomorrah.
