Pedrosa Growing On Some Of You? Think Again!

Jumkie · Sep 22, 2010

chopperman said:
^^^^ Suppo and Puig are managers, and are therefore about as trustworthy and reliable as those nice gentlemen who ask for help moving the money of dead people out of Nigerian banks.

Maybe im being naive but id be interested to know on what grounds puig is asking repsol to use their weight to get rid of suppo. Is he that scared of a suppo casey team. Surly if that were the case puig would want the garage wall to come down. Keep your enemy's close and all that ?

On the grounds that Puig is a treacherous backstabbing shameless deceitful ungrateful wicked malevolent who personifies the worst of Dorna and its agend for Spanish domination and Spanish sponsorship. I called it before Stoner signed; anybody who is Dani’s teammate while Alberto Puig is alive (a man who I'm convinced balances the evil side of the universe) will face every possible resistance detrimental to their effort. Its so easy to see I don’t know why people continue to ignore it. Puig is Carmelo and vise versa, and they will always favor the Spanish at the expense of what is already a fake competition. Honda will go with it because they don’t care who wins on their bike, as long as it’s a Honda. Stoner is ......, you will see.

chopperman · Sep 22, 2010

Jumkie said:
On the grounds that Puig is a treacherous backstabbing shameless deceitful ungrateful wicked malevolent who personifies the worst of Dorna and its agend for Spanish domination and Spanish sponsorship. I called it before Stoner signed; anybody who is Dani’s teammate while Alberto Puig is alive (a man who I'm convinced balances the evil side of the universe) will face every possible resistance detrimental to their effort. Its so easy to see I don’t know why people continue to ignore it. Puig is Carmelo and vise versa, and they will always favor the Spanish at the expense of what is already a fake competition. Honda will go with it because they don’t care who wins on their bike, as long as it’s a Honda. Stoner is ......, you will see.

But i wonder what he said to repsol or offered repsol so they would go to HRC and demand they get rid of suppo ? If this is true i will join you in saying puig is a piece of .... and should go for the sake of our sport.

Arrabbiata1 · Sep 22, 2010

Kropotkin said:
For those of you who want to take sides, remember, this is like picking sides in a cage fight between Kim Jong Il and Osama bin Laden. Whoever you root for, you end up feeling morally tainted.

That's Brilliant Dave

Jumkie · Sep 22, 2010

Kropotkin said:
Puig was just getting some control over HRC, and wants to keep things as they are. It's your basic power struggle. Puig had control over his side of the garage, and a weak opposite side, and doesn't want anyone coming in. Suppo is supposed to be coming in as overall manager, so as Puig's boss, and Puig hates that idea.

For those of you who want to take sides, remember, this is like picking sides in a cage fight between Kim Jong Il and Osama bin Laden. Whoever you root for, you end up feeling morally tainted.

Kropo, your candid takes are refreshing and much need in this sport. Suppo may be a big ......., but he's not to the level of unchecked treacherous power like Alberto Puig has at his disposal. I'm not fooled, Carmelo and Puig are bed buddies who have eachother's back and are willing to do anything, anything, to maintain their strangle hold and agenda on the series. Its a good old boy club: Dorna, Repsol, Carmelo, Alberto, etal. You'd have as much success getting rid of Carmelo from Dorna as you would Alberto from his power source, not the case with Suppo. That's the difference, sure Suppo might have the same capacity for deceit, but he has no where near the power to do it.

Pigeon · Sep 22, 2010

Becoming the best thread in a while.may this one continue on n on n on

Jumkie · Sep 22, 2010

chopperman said:
But i wonder what he said to repsol or offered repsol so they would go to HRC and demand they get rid of suppo ? If this is true i will join you in saying puig is a piece of .... and should go for the sake of our sport.

Spanish domination and the marketing value that comes with it (Spanish champ selling Spanish .... means value for a Spanish company). Why do you think Repsol have always demanded a Spanish rider? I'm sure he told them they are on the cusp of a world title with Pedrosa. His latest form has made this very palpable. Puig is using this momentum to 86 (that means get rid of) Suppo while he has perceived standing to do so. Puig, like the Devil, is very conniving and shrewd, and he knows Casey is a threat under Suppo. If anything, Casey can ride the bike as good as Dani, this is a major problem he sees in the future. Its easier to explain why your guy hasn't won a title when he out performs his teammate (just blame the bike), but its very hard when he doesn't beat his teammate, something Casey can very much do. Plus Puig is desperate, his golden boy is losing time, only one more year on the formula that was designed by Honda/Repsol/Puig/Pedros' aspirations for title. Alberto is desperate, Honda is desperate, Repsol is desperate. Honda/Repsol had become weary of Pedro's lack of delivery, close but no cigar. But now there is hope, and Puig is exploiting this to the fullest. Rossi to Ducati, as much as we both agree he's great, its still a big unknown. Yamaha without Rossi and Fugiwara, big unknown for Lorenzo. Honda signs Casey, holy ...., Puig must neutralize this threat now that it looks like they have perhaps the best chance at winning a championship (God knows they weren't gonna get one while Rossi/Lorenzo/Yamaha and Casey/Ducati was in the mix. And on top of that, Puig has Carmelos ear, a very valuable tool, and one that Honda & Repsol can appreciate.

michaelm · Sep 22, 2010

Arrabbiata1 said:
That's Brilliant Dave

Agreed. And great to get the heads-up on all this from such a source.

Whilst this may be a battle between a cobra and a black mamba, it is inteesting to speculate. You would think puig might have the advantage at present if he does have repsol's support , particularly as suppo has not delivered redbull, or anyone else, for which purpose he was supposedly originally hired. Puig could be playing a risky game since it is rumoured repsol are not very committed and do not put in marlboro levels of money in any case, but to mix the metaphors I guess he is cornered.

From the stoner fan point of view i share some of jumkie's concerns but think that honda at this stage will go for the best chance of winning the 2011 title regardless of puig, repsol etc. His problem is that the way the bike is shaping up particular heroics by the rider may not be necessary to win the title, and dani is obviously pretty good anyway. If he turns up at the valencia test and blasts the field away it would obviate most problems; this is not impossible as I don't think pedrosa is half a second a lap faster than hayden, as stoner was even with nicky performing very well at aragon. I wonder which bike they will give him and what the base settings will be?. I wouldn't be expecting much helpfrom dani(or dovi for that matter) if I were him.

chopperman · Sep 22, 2010

Jumkie said:
Spanish domination and the marketing value that comes with it (Spanish champ selling Spanish .... means value for a Spanish company). Why do you think Repsol have always demanded a Spanish rider? I'm sure he told them they are on the cusp of a world title with Pedrosa. His latest form has made this very palpable. Puig is using this momentum to 86 (that means get rid of) Suppo while he has perceived standing to do so. Puig, like the Devil, is very conniving and shrewd, and he knows Casey is a threat under Suppo. If anything, Casey can ride the bike as good as Dani, this is a major problem he sees in the future. Its easier to explain why your guy hasn't won a title when he out performs his teammate (just blame the bike), but its very hard when he doesn't beat his teammate, something Casey can very much do. Plus Puig is desperate, his golden boy is losing time, only one more year on the formula that was designed by Honda/Repsol/Puig/Pedros' aspirations for title. Alberto is desperate, Honda is desperate, Repsol is desperate. Honda/Repsol had become weary of Pedro's lack of delivery, close but no cigar. But now there is hope, and Puig is exploiting this to the fullest. Rossi to Ducati, as much as we both agree he's great, its still a big unknown. Yamaha without Rossi and Fugiwara, big unknown for Lorenzo. Honda signs Casey, holy ...., Puig must neutralize this threat now that it looks like they have perhaps the best chance at winning a championship (God knows they weren't gonna get one while Rossi/Lorenzo/Yamaha and Casey/Ducati was in the mix. And on top of that, Puig has Carmelos ear, a very valuable tool, and one that Honda & Repsol can appreciate.

But Repsol were quite happy to have an aussie champ (Doohan) and a spanish rider in second (criv) in the past. Its not as ive they have had a spanish champ since criv either. They have waited 6 years for dani with no championship to show for it, surly they would settle for any champ then no champ ?

Pigeon · Sep 22, 2010

Unlikely but if two of big players in this get cold feet repsol / and a Spanish TV comp ? Is due a renewal if i remember

if they pull out i wouldn't worry about garage walls.

Who will step up and man the Motogp fort then

has Rossi got more than running a moto2 team on his mind.

BIG IF but if it ever happened could Rossi get TV Backers involved a KR back and more

imo Pug has just about ran his course and maybe Mr Honda has had enough too

would it be a big egg on the face to Honda if they dont get a 800 title.

Are Honda about to man up and be ruthless with ppl they have given a free rein too

The Honda Cold war has began by the sounds of it.

Whole will it involve and crush

chopperman · Sep 22, 2010

Pigeon said:
Unlikely but if two of big players in this get cold feet repsol / and a Spanish TV comp ? Is due a renewal if i remember

if they pull out i wouldn't worry about garage walls.

Who will step up and man the Motogp fort then

has Rossi got more than running a moto2 team on his mind.

BIG IF but if it ever happened could Rossi get TV Backers involved a KR back and more

imo Pug has just about ran his course and maybe Mr Honda has had enough too

would it be a big egg on the face to Honda if they dont get a 800 title.

Are Honda about to man up and be ruthless with ppl they have given a free rein too

The Honda Cold war has began by the sounds of it.

Whole will it involve and crush

This is adding some spice to the silly season for sure

Talpa · Sep 22, 2010

I have no problem with the split garage, why do teammates have to be all cuddly and friendly? After all your teammate is the first one you want to beat. This is rubbish and Mick Doohan's was completely right. I can't help but notice that Haydenettes are unitedly outspoken on this issue, and while Nicky was considerably boned by HRC in 2007-08, and even 2006 to some extent, its not a viable reason for such opposition to the wall. Rog is right-Lorenzo is a stunning example of how a rider can flourish with a wall-after all he's more than likely going to win the title this year.

Of course it works, providing the riders are talented enough to take their own road. And Casey is talented enough, but it seems not too patient with his new employer, for it will take a lot longer to challenge for wins without pedro's data.

Repsol did enjoy 5 titles with an Australian, and didn't Puig hand pick Stoner amongst the Spanish masses? One could say Puig is almost the one most responsible for the opportunities given to Stoner. Hardly as patriarchal as he is being accused of. And while it is accepted that he is an ......., one must also consider the nature needed to be the best in the world-none of these guys are angels-Suppo and Stoner certainly included. Jeez look at Mick Doohan!

I'm sure if they could have secured Red Bull they would have, but Spain remains the country where Motogp enjoys the most support, so Repsol still have the most to gain from their investment. I'm sure that HRC will look favorably on financial support no matter who or where it comes from.......

As I've said previously, without one VR and the Factory M1 in its current state, Pedro would have a Motogp title by now, no doubt, as he has some titles to back this thoery. These guys are there to win, not to make friends. So I offer that some shouldn't let their blind hatred blind them to the more than obvious realities of the sport.

BarryMachine · Sep 22, 2010

I can wait till next year to find out the answer to much of the entrigue. And even then I'm not sure I'll react much at all, cos in reality its all just racing and its not like its a new occurrence in MGP.

Biggest shock for me is what some fans expect some racers to be

So next year I shall watch to see if Pedrosa is:

a leopard

the devil

a black Mamba

or a cobra

......... I just know I'm gunna be dissappointed when he just stays as a GP riders though

On a more serious note, don't you think Honda know the full story on how things are with Repsol? I would have thought hiring Stoner was their attempt to counter that.

ie. Since Dani is Repsol's "golden boy" they do not have as much sway or liason with him as they would want. So Stoner will be the more Honda oriented "golden boy".

Its all pretty divided by definition of the Repsol/Honda partnership, as it was with Doohan and Criville for so long.

Talpa · Sep 22, 2010

One could also bring up probably the most controversial move that HRC ever made, which rarely is brought up here and had nothing to do with Puig but another very large and even more Powerful organization, the signing of VR's new 'Factory' teammate for 2003, who had only won a domestic title and nothing on the world stage at the time.

One could say that many very talented, and more successful riders, were overlooked for that extremely sort after seat on the best prototype machine in the world, a case of giving the majority what they want-no?

These guys will stop at nothing to;

A. Win

B. If A can't be done- Get the most bang for their buck-in the biggest markets available.

michaelm · Sep 22, 2010

Talpa said:
I have no problem with the split garage, why do teammates have to be all cuddly and friendly? After all your teammate is the first one you want to beat. This is rubbish and Mick Doohan's was completely right. I can't help but notice that Haydenettes are unitedly outspoken on this issue, and while Nicky was considerably boned by HRC in 2007-08, and even 2006 to some extent, its not a viable reason for such opposition to the wall. Rog is right-Lorenzo is a stunning example of how a rider can flourish with a wall-after all he's more than likely going to win the title this year.

Of course it works, providing the riders are talented enough to take their own road. And Casey is talented enough, but it seems not too patient with his new employer, for it will take a lot longer to challenge for wins without pedro's data.

Repsol did enjoy 5 titles with an Australian, and didn't Puig hand pick Stoner amongst the Spanish masses? One could say Puig is almost the one most responsible for the opportunities given to Stoner. Hardly as patriarchal as he is being accused of. And while it is accepted that he is an ......., one must also consider the nature needed to be the best in the world-none of these guys are angels-Suppo and Stoner certainly included. Jeez look at Mick Doohan!

I'm sure if they could have secured Red Bull they would have, but Spain remains the country where Motogp enjoys the most support, so Repsol still have the most to gain from their investment. I'm sure that HRC will look favorably on financial support no matter who or where it comes from.......

As I've said previously, without one VR and the Factory M1 in its current state, Pedro would have a Motogp title by now, no doubt, as he has some titles to back this thoery. These guys are there to win, not to make friends. So I offer that some shouldn't let their blind hatred blind them to the more than obvious realities of the sport.

I don't disagree with much of this, especially about your team-mate being your first rival in most forms of motorsport. Mick doohan was made to share his data with alex criville though; he complained about it not infrequently as I recall. Stoner is being consistent as he has never had a problem with data sharing at ducati. I suspect the bike will either suit him or not, and that dani's data won't be much help to him. I think it is true that the split garage has worked well for lorenzo for this one year, but may not continue to do so without development input from valentino and rossi's injury or injuries also changed things this year.

michaelm · Sep 22, 2010

BarryMachine said:
I can wait till next year to find out the answer to much of the entrigue. And even then I'm not sure I'll react much at all, cos in reality its all just racing and its not like its a new occurrence in MGP.

Biggest shock for me is what some fans expect some racers to be

So next year I shall watch to see if Pedrosa is:

a leopard

the devil

a black Mamba

or a cobra

I think david's point was that this is about a political battle between puig and suppo rather than conflict between dani and casey, who are generally rather more concerned with riding than politics as you say.

chopperman · Sep 22, 2010

michaelm said:
I don't disagree with most of this, especially about your team-mate being your first rival in most forms of motorsport. Mick doohan was made to share his data with alex criville though; he complained about it not infrequently as I recall. Stoner is being consistent as he has never had a problem with data sharing at ducati. I suspect the bike will either suit him or not, and that dani's data won't be much help to him. I think it is true that the split garage has worked well for lorenzo for this one year, but may not continue to do do without development input from valentino and rossi's injury or injuries also changed things this year.

Not digging at casey but so far he has not had a team-mate that's challenged him consistently. I wonder how he would feel about sharing data if he had a team-mate taking race wins from him and being a threat to his championship standings. Doohan had this problem as does/did VR. I also agree with Talpa that a racers first concern is to beat your team-mate.

FACTORY · Sep 22, 2010

wouldn't it be better for Pedrosa to grow first before trying to grow on others....to at least stop the 12 year old boy insults!!

Jumkie · Sep 22, 2010

michaelm said:
I don't disagree with much of this, especially about your team-mate being your first rival in most forms of motorsport. Mick doohan was made to share his data with alex criville though; he complained about it not infrequently as I recall. Stoner is being consistent as he has never had a problem with data sharing at ducati. I suspect the bike will either suit him or not, and that dani's data won't be much help to him. I think it is true that the split garage has worked well for lorenzo for this one year, but may not continue to do so without development input from valentino and rossi's injury or injuries also changed things this year.

Perhaps its because you misjudge Talpa's intentions (which isn't that hard to do since he wears it on his sleeve, hint: he thinks the wall will hinder Casey, so he's for it. Ironic as it is, his support for walls didn't have the desired effect he's looked for in other situations.) It seems to me Stoner is not really interested in data sharing as he is trying to bring harmony and, in his words, "unity" to a team who's made cutthroat anti-solidarity their art form and their modus operandi. Its funny that people are even defending the opposite of harmony, imagine that, defending cutthroat discord over solidarity? What kind of human being advocates for the cutthroat accord a wall represents in a team? (Make no mistake, that is exactly how Puig/Pedro see it). Perhaps you may recall, Ben Spies had something to say on this subject. When asked if there would be a wall in the Tech3 or the new factory squad, he referenced the hostile cutthroat environment he experienced with Mat Mladin (a man he beat no less, so Ben's call for harmony can be seen as genuine). He said there really was no place for it in a professional setting. And he said it did not advance the aims of the brand. He added that all it did was provide a tense environment but that the motivation for a professional racer was unaffected (as it should be). The will to win was there from a competitive spirit, but it did not need to get ugly was his explanation. Some of you may recall that during his WSBK title run, his fierce rival was Nori Haga, who he battled on the track intensely; but went to the man's BBQ's off the track. Why? Because Ben Spies is not about the ........, very similar to Casey's attitude about racing.

Keshav · Sep 22, 2010

chopperman said:
Bear in mind honda's attitude to riders. Its 95% bike 5 % rider. We build bikes capable of winning, your paid to ride it. Also there is bound to be in-fighting in an open garage as neither casey or dani will accept being classed as #2 no matter what the points standing. I think this is more a case of casey wanting the years of data collected by the pedrosa side to assist him in the change.Im not so sure there styles are so different that danis data would be useless to casey.

Even if we were to agree in principal that their riding styles were the same - we'd have to agree that in light of

the difference in stature and weight - there are necessarily going to be variances in ergonomics and weight

distribution. I can't picture Stoner in a repeat of Hayden hell on an undersized Pedrosa-replica.

And it stands to reason (I think) that Stoner is not going to be starting with a blank slate. If he's on a team

Repsol bike - he's going to start out inheriting the benefits of Dani's experiences; not the whole ball-of-wax

- but a substantial data-base. After all, the info is the intellectual property of Honda who have put a lot of

stock in Stoner's ability to win. Once he starts testing - he's going to develop the bike to suit himself, as

opposed to copycat everything Pedrosas does.

Geonerd · Sep 22, 2010

Krop,

I remember Honda making some vague statements about 'reducing' Puig's role in the team. I think this was last year, or possibly late in '08? We were all desperately hoping they'd just shoot the ...... in the nuts and be done with it, but that clearly hasn't happened. This whole 'power struggle' with Supo should have already been decided in Livio's favor, by Holy Decree from HRC. Indeed, it's hard to see that anything has changed in the Repsol garage. Instead, Puig - like some undead, un-killable monster from a slasher flick - has revived his power and is again on the rampage. Honda must have forgotten to burn the corpse and scatter the ashes.

What happened? ( What was supposed to happen? )

Will HRC ever follow through and limit Darth Puig's sway? (IMO, this is the same as asking, "Will HRC ever get serious about winning the title?")

Any insight appreciated!

Thanks

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