Nicky Hayden ....

In repsponse the the level of talent in the AMA, I believe there is more talent there than just Spies and Mladin, it's just that the Suzuki here for the most part is very dominant, and has factory support I believe (jumkie correct me if I'm wrong on this) and the other makes that compete in the AMA don't have the best of factory support. Again, I may be wrong about that statement, but the Suzuki has really been developed by a great mechanic and the hard work and long hours have paid off with success on the track.
Many US riders have been olverlooked for years because they couldnt beat Mladin so the rest of the world which I believe hates Mladin just don't pay attention to our riders. Spies beat Mladin last year, and guess what?...everyone is talking about a possible WSBK ride for Spies. Spies has talent for sure and I would love to see an American in the WSBK series.
On another note, it's been said many times on here that Hayden is a large fellow when in fact he's not. He's is not small though, very muscular build, and I don't think anyone works harder than he does on his fitness. I've said it before on here that it takes Hayden time to adjust to a new bike and I still think thats the case. Now he's having to adjust to a new bike and new riding style and everyone is throwing him under the bus. Guys were one race into the season, sit back enjoy the racing and lets see if he can make a serious go of it then we can debate it on here until the sun goes down.

Any of you who think Mladin and Spies are anywhere near Haydens level are living on a strange planet indeed, the AMA superbike championship is not even that near the level of the world superbikes, let alone gp's.

AMA and WSBK riders are similar in size and talent.There are plenty of instances where an AMA rider had success in WSBK, but the jump to Gp is a whole different world and a huge part of it is size.Mat Mladin is on record as saying he could go race Gp and finish 8-10 or stay in Superbike and win titles.The reason,his size,he fluctuates between 170-180 which is huge for a Gp rider and he stated it is to big of an advantage to overcome.Most Gp riders are in the 140-150 range with with a few in the 130-140 range and then you have the hobbit Pedrosa who barely cracks 100lbs.Spies is facing the same problem,he is already 160 plus at 23 years old.Natural progression will take him to 180 and if that happens he has no Gp career.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 22 2007, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Any of you who think Mladin and Spies are anywhere near Haydens level are living on a strange planet indeed, the AMA superbike championship is not even that near the level of the world superbikes, let alone gp's.

AMA and WSBK riders are similar in size and talent.There are plenty of instances where an AMA rider had success in WSBK, but the jump to Gp is a whole different world and a huge part of it is size.Mat Mladin is on record as saying he could go race Gp and finish 8-10 or stay in Superbike and win titles.The reason,his size,he fluctuates between 170-180 which is huge for a Gp rider and he stated it is to big of an advantage to overcome.Most Gp riders are in the 140-150 range with with a few in the 130-140 range and then you have the hobbit Pedrosa who barely cracks 100lbs.Spies is facing the same problem,he is already 160 plus at 23 years old.Natural progression will take him to 180 and if that happens he has no Gp career.

Very good point indeed. With the displacement decrease in MotoGP the larger riders have a small margin of error when riding. The larger displacement era bikes had more tourque and horsepower to overcome a blown corner entry or exit.

Maybe Hayden will move to a Satalite Honda Team and someone else will take haydens place.

I'm not sure about the Satellite team? It could be that Yamaha may take a look at him, they made a serious run at him before he was a World Champion.

Yeah i suppose but Colin is a great development rider.
But i suppose its the races that count

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Polini10- @ Mar 21 2007, 08:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Do you think Hayden will stay on the Repsol if he doesnt win the title this year???
Do you think Rossi will stay on the Fiat Yamaha if he doesn't win the title this year???



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 22 2007, 03:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think you over estimate your national championship a little bit in the greater scheme of things. It is by no means bad (top 3 superbike series in the world), but it is not the world championship and it is ridden at a lower level. You say not many guys could come to the AMA and be competative, but out of the (not particularly deep) AMA grid, only Ben Spies would stand a serious chance in world superbikes and even he would take time to gain experience.
Conversely, I think you under estimate the AMA and over estimate the international series. But we've had this conversation before, haven't we?

Yes i do because he has signed a 2 year contract with Yamaha

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L8Braker @ Mar 22 2007, 04:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In repsponse the the level of talent in the AMA, I believe there is more talent there than just Spies and Mladin, it's just that the Suzuki here for the most part is very dominant, and has factory support I believe (jumkie correct me if I'm wrong on this) and the other makes that compete in the AMA don't have the best of factory support.
Yes Braker, the support from the factories other than Suzuki in the Superbike class has been absent. The other manufactures in the last few years have been spearheaded by alternate sponsorship, for example "Attack" for Kawasaki and "Erior" for Honda. It’s the equivalent of expecting Grenisi Fortuna or Konica Minolta MotoGP teams to compete with the factory Honda. Despite the rider's efforts, it just hard to compete with the big money.

All i hope is for Rossi to win the title back

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 22 2007, 07:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Any of you who think Mladin and Spies are anywhere near Haydens level are living on a strange planet indeed, the AMA superbike championship is not even that near the level of the world superbikes, let alone gp's.

2. AMA and WSBK riders are similar in size and talent.There are plenty of instances where an AMA rider had success in WSBK, but the jump to Gp is a whole different world and a huge part of it is size.Mat Mladin is on record as saying he could go race Gp and finish 8-10 or stay in Superbike and win titles.The reason,his size,he fluctuates between 170-180 which is huge for a Gp rider and he stated it is to big of an advantage to overcome.Most Gp riders are in the 140-150 range with with a few in the 130-140 range and then you have the hobbit Pedrosa who barely cracks 100lbs.Spies is facing the same problem,he is already 160 plus at 23 years old.Natural progression will take him to 180 and if that happens he has no Gp career.
1. In my opinion, they are near the level of their respective skill set. This means, either of the AMA, WSBK, and MotoGP skills are narrowly equal in what it takes to perform on their bikes and can be interchanged. I think if you put Mladin or Spies on Hayden's bike ( or anybody else’s bike in GP), though very speculative and of course knowbody "really" knows the answer, but I would expect some similar performances.

2. Very good point. And to add to your point, I think that going to 800s was a big mistake. Look at the 250s and 125s. I doubt you can find a guy with the average stature and weight as the superbike guys as a whole(AMA or WSBK). Which leads me to believe that MotoGP not only caters to its support class, but effectively, is impeding the superbike guys from ever been competitive in the "premier" class. It is my contension that MotoGP did not go to 800s to make the racing safer, but to homologate the entire series. Effectively shutting out all but the most talented of riders from other series.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Polini10- @ Mar 22 2007, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All i hope is for Rossi to win the title back


Can your posts get any shorter?

Rossi is most likely to wi nthe title back, everyone is thinking that...when is the question. Probably this year, but will he move to WRC/F1 in the on-coming years after doing everything else in Moto GP?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Polini10- @ Mar 22 2007, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All i hope is for Rossi to win the title back.
Thats cool.

All I hope is for Hayden to win the title back to back.

Yep they can

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Mar 22 2007, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Can your posts get any shorter?
Are you pointing something out or hoping.

3-4 years ago, Honda actually won more races than Suzuki but lost the title because Duhamel and Zemke split to many wins.That was a full factory effort.After Rossi left and beat Honda his first year on the Yamaha,Honda pulled full factory effort from AMA to concentrate on getting the Gp title back.It was handed over to American Honda which was an unmitigated disaster.This year they have factory support again,lets see if it makes a difference or if it takes a couple years.I think Kawasaki's Superbike and Supersport efforts are factory backed with the FX program handled by Attack.The one guy that seems to be able to tune with even the factory guys is Ronald ten Kate.He gets factory help on parts but runs his team as an independant from what i can gather

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 22 2007, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>3-4 years ago, Honda actually won more races than Suzuki but lost the title because Duhamel and Zemke split to many wins.That was a full factory effort.After Rossi left and beat Honda his first year on the Yamaha,Honda pulled full factory effort from AMA to concentrate on getting the Gp title back.It was handed over to American Honda which was an unmitigated disaster.This year they have factory support again,lets see if it makes a difference or if it takes a couple years.I think Kawasaki's Superbike and Supersport efforts are factory backed with the FX program handled by Attack.The one guy that seems to be able to tune with even the factory guys is Ronald ten Kate.He gets factory help on parts but runs his team as an independant from what i can gather

Yes, below are the stats for that year, notice it was a two horse series. What does that say for factory support?

AMA US Superbike 2004

Round Date Race Winner Second Third
1 Mar. 6 Daytona, FL M. Mladin (Suzuki) J. Zemke M. Duhamel
2 Apr. 3 Fontana, CA M. Mladin (Suzuki) E. Bostrom M. Duhamel
3 Apr. 4 Fontana, CA M. Mladin (Suzuki) E. Bostrom J. Zemke
4 May 1 Sonoma, CA M. Mladin (Suzuki) M. Duhamel J. Zemke
5 May 2 Sonoma, CA M. Duhamel (Honda) J. Zemke A. Yates
6 May 15 Birmingham, AL M. Mladin (Suzuki) J. Zemke M. Duhamel
7 May 16 Birmingham, AL M. Duhamel (Honda) J. Zemke M. Mladin
8 May 23 Pikes Peak, CO E. Bostrom (Ducati) J. Zemke A. Yates
9 Jun. 5 Elkhart Lake, WI M. Duhamel (Honda) M. Mladin J. Zemke
10 Jun. 6 Elkhart Lake, WI M. Duhamel (Honda) J. Zemke M. Mladin
11 Jun. 27 Brainerd, MN J. Zemke (Honda) M. Duhamel M. Mladin
12 Jul. 11 Laguna Seca, CA B. Bostrom (Honda) M. Mladin M. Duhamel
13 Jul. 24 Mid-Ohio, OH M. Mladin (Suzuki) M. Duhamel A. Yates
14 Jul. 25 Mid-Ohio, OH J. Zemke (Honda) B. Bostrom M. Mladin
15 Sep. 4 Road Atlanta, GA M. Mladin (Suzuki) M. Duhamel B. Bostrom
16 Sep. 5 Road Atlanta, GA M. Mladin (Suzuki) M. Duhamel B. Bostrom
17 Sep. 10 Alton, VA M. Duhamel (Honda) A. Yates B. Bostrom
18 Sep. 10 Alton, VA M. Duhamel (Honda) A. Yates B. Bostrom

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Mar 22 2007, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes Braker, the support from the factories other than Suzuki in the Superbike class has been absent. The other manufactures in the last few years have been spearheaded by alternate sponsorship, for example "Attack" for Kawasaki and "Erior" for Honda. It’s the equivalent of expecting Grenisi Fortuna or Konica Minolta MotoGP teams to compete with the factory Honda. Despite the rider's efforts, it just hard to compete with the big money.

^^ I agree with you on some points, and disagree with others. Honda has had a factory team in AMA forever, ridden by DuHamel and Zemke. The other team is actually Erion Honda which is also Honda factory supported. Team Kawasaki is also a factory team which is new for the last few years, they once funneled their support through Rob Muzzy. Muzzy's factory Kawasaki team won three AMA crowns ridden by Doug Chandler, it is now Attack Kawasaki. Finally Graves Yamaha is also a factory supported team. Suzuki is Team Yoshimura Suzuki. The only team that is 100% factory is Honda. SO it is not a case of Yoshimura Suzuki outspending Honda. Susuki and Yoshimura have been teamed up for at least 20 years, and they have the two most focused guys on the grid as well as a development relationship between factory and riders. Suzuki simply has a better bika and better riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Mar 22 2007, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Susuki and Yoshimura have been teamed up for at least 20 years, and they have the two most focused guys on the grid as well as a development relationship between factory and riders.
Yes, I agree with this point here that the teaming up has resulted in a "consistent" effort, not seen by the other teams. However, much of the Honda factory support has shifted and fluctuated several years as Yamaha and Kawasaki has between the Supersport 600s class and the superbike class, which in effect has diminished the consistency of the superbike effort, where as the Suzuki effort has been solidified. I'm not sure I would say that the two Suzuki boys are any more or less focused or intent on wining than the Honda boys. Zemke and DuHamel are very focused and were poised to win the last two at Daytona before some problems, last of which was not their fault.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 22 2007, 07:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think you over estimate your national championship a little bit in the greater scheme of things. It is by no means bad (top 3 superbike series in the world), but it is not the world championship and it is ridden at a lower level. You say not many guys could come to the AMA and be competative, but out of the (not particularly deep) AMA grid, only Ben Spies would stand a serious chance in world superbikes and even he would take time to gain experience.

^^ Are you insane? One of your WSBK champions came over to AMA and got his tail kicked all over over the country, all the while fully factory supported. I submit that there is more talent in the AMA paddock than the WSBK (formerly known as Ducati Cup Racing). And furthermore! Ducati left with their tail between their legs not because the rules were unfair, but because they were not given their usual overwhelming advantage they have become accustomed to. I submit that there are several riders in AMA that would be very competitive and a few that would even compete for the title (with equal machinery and support).