Mugello MotoGP testing

Mr Squiggle · Jul 5, 2011

Jumkie said:
As usual, balance post. Casey is phenomenal; I don't think this can be denied. But this preoccupation with others getting a tow is not doing the kid any favors. And about gpone as a source, haha, I agree, not always the most unbias, eh. However, its now reported in other outlets, and its basically the same thing, Stoner was annoyed at Karel seeking a tow, so he prevented it by brake checking.

As you point out, the argument here isn't the moral merits of somebody seeking a tow. I really wish he could just get on with it. The guy is so amazing, why tarnish it with being a jerk sometimes. The kid seems to have just about everything else in order and sees things fairly decent, except this anal preoccupation with tows.

Karel is a rookie, so I can see why he would want to learn something from Casey, as he’s the fastest. I think Stoner should feel confident his secrets are safe, since even more able riders like Spies, Rossi, Dovi, Lorenzo, and Capirossi have stated, they see what he’s doing but just can’t replicate it.

Squiz, closing the throttle is deliberate. Its ramming in reverse. No jumping to judgment, as the incident was reported as causing contact. Closing the throttle is the 'causing' part the 'result' was contact. What's hard to understand about that? The quote reads: "the collision a result of Abraham trying to get a tow from Stoner, and Stoner backing off the throttle to prevent him from doing so"; that is, the collision was caused not by a rider seeking a tow, but the reaction of the annoyed rider deliberately brake checking to prevent it.

Karel was 'actually there' or do you want to 'reserve judgment' until somebody else says it? You just said Karel wanted to see what Stoner is doing, is that dangerous? Then you say Stoner slowed down to prevent it, is this blocking dangerous? It is if its abrupt enough to cause contact. You may not rush to judgement, but then once you get the facts, you say this is a "mountain out of a molehill", is that not a judgement? The difference is, your 'judgement' is contending, its not big deal. Well Karel thought it was, enough to go confront Stoner. I don't think you get it, the justification here is that Stoner has some moral right because he doesn't want others to get a tow. That's fine, nobody wants to give away their secrets, but that does not give somebody the right to chop the throttle and endanger the other riders. Do you see the difference? How about Casey just runs wide to avoid people stealing his secrets (as if others can replicate his fast pace).

Casey's actions are extreme overreactions. You guys glossing it over means you don't really seem to understand that these kinds of actions can actually cause injury. Its one thing to wave your disgust, its quite another to cause interruptions using your bike. And the 'tow' is the least benign of these, as Stoner would be in the front, free to run his lines.

This doesn't say anything about Stoner being fast and capable, it does say something about his ability to cope with minor pesky annoyances by reaction in dangerous ways or overreacting verbal outbursts.

You love playing devils advocate huh Jumkie....I wonder if Stoner had not "insulted" your favourite rider a few weeks back if we would be having this conversation.

In my opinion if it was a DELIBERATE act and Stoner INTENDED for Abraham to crash into him - that is indeed a dangerous precedent and he should without doubt be punished. In this case it doesn't seem to be as he has EMPHATICALLY denied this allegation....and knowing Stoners past history he has IMO been honest and forthright in his conduct previously and I see no reason to doubt his integrity now...but of course I could be wrong in that assumption...it wouldn't be the first time

As I stated after the RDP incident I thought he deserved a 1 race ban as a $5000 fine IMO was inadequate...its pocket change for him or any top sportsmen for that matter but a race ban would DEFINITELY make him think twice about repeating what amounted to a physical assault on another rider occurring again....even if it was basically a "love tap" it is PLAIN WRONG and I stated it at the time.

The other side of the coin is that CS has been perfectly consistent in his approach to riders getting a tow from him or lollygagging on the racing line and we have repeatedly discussed the safety ramifications of doing so....surely Karel would have realized this has been recently highlighted and is NOT deemed to be acceptable behaviour and that Stoner is the one rider who will definitely react to this dangerous habit - some riders seem to continue to do this and again he has reacted rightly or wrongly. Maybe KA thought he would do it simply to annoy Stoner as he made the recent allegation (wrongfully IMO) that he didn't deserve to be in the top class....I think KA has proved beyond reasonable doubt he is indeed worthy of a ride in this class but he along with a few others need to curb this habit before something serious does happen.

If I am proven wrong and evidence comes to light showing Stoner was indeed in the wrong he should DEFINITELY be punished in a way that will hopefully prevent it ever happening again....but I did say IF! I haven't seen the incident nor have you...I have only read what has been reported by people who were there and NO-ONE has mentioned a "brake check" as you seem to categorically state was the case.

Mick D · Jul 5, 2011

Frizzle said:
I'll wait until I hear from another source or from the riders preferably.

But I will say this.

1 - What is the point of looking for a tow in a test session?

2 - What is the point of getting even remotely upset with someone looking for a tow in a test session?

If it's true, then ride the bike Casey & stop being a petulant knob. It's become a regular occurrence.

The point of a tow in testing is to learn a faster riders lines, breaking points and scim whatever info you can!!!!

Keshav · Jul 5, 2011

Talpa said:
Stoner's making friends again.....

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201107044230/Stoner-Abraham-match-al-Mugello.html

You boys.

All the time bitching and moaning over the lack of close racing and then

when Stoner gives you some - you ..... and moan some more. Damned if you do - damned if

you don't.

Sounds like Stoner was warning Abraham off. I know if someone did that to me, I'd think twice

about trying to shadow him. I could definitely see Doohan pulling something like that.

Jumkie · Jul 5, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
You love playing devils advocate huh Jumkie....I wonder if Stoner had not "insulted" your favourite rider a few weeks back if we would be having this conversation.

I have been called El Diablo before buddy.

"Devils advocate" & fanboyism? Are you gonna employ lazy fallacies my dear friend? Lets just stick to the incident, and dispense with deploying each other's possible motives, as they will get either of us nowhere. Ok friend.

Mr Squiggle said:
In my opinion if it was a DELIBERATE act and Stoner INTENDED for Abraham to crash into him - that is indeed a dangerous precedent and he should without doubt be punished. In this case it doesn't seem to be as he has EMPHATICALLY denied this allegation....and knowing Stoners past history he has IMO been honest and forthright in his conduct previously and I see no reason to doubt his integrity now...but of course I could be wrong in that assumption...it wouldn't be the first time

Wait, you quoted motomatters saying the contact resulted from Stoner backing off the throttle. Simple 'cause and effect'. What is "if" about this. Are you saying the report got it wrong, and Stoner did not chop the throttle? Ok, if that is the basis of your argument, then any time a rider denies any wrong doing, they must be believed. Therefore; we both may have to go back and adjust several of our posts, as we have based many of our opinions on media reports (regardless of rider denials). Again, this is what you quoted, right? "the collision a result of Abraham trying to get a tow from Stoner, and Stoner backing off the throttle to prevent him from doing so" Of course Stoner didn't intend to get crashed into, that's an argument fallacy, but would you accept he did attempt to "prevent" him from getting a tow by slowing down? That Karel avoided a crash is apart from the action of causing the sequence of events. So who's mind reading are we to believe, Stoner or Karel? Sure, Stoner denied it, but Karel certainly thinks it happened. Should we selectively believe the mind reading of riders? Btw, is there a reason you left this part out of your quote: "Abraham accusing Stoner of having barged into him, Stoner denying it emphatically..." So how about the mind reading of journalist on riders? It seems we are doing that already.

Mr Squiggle said:
As I stated after the RDP incident I thought he deserved a 1 race ban as a $5000 fine IMO was inadequate...its pocket change for him or any top sportsmen for that matter but a race ban would DEFINITELY make him think twice about repeating what amounted to a physical assault on another rider occurring again....even if it was basically a "love tap" it is PLAIN WRONG and I stated it at the time.

$Fine was ok, I think a ban would have been a bit much. But its debatable.

Mr Squiggle said:
The other side of the coin is that CS has been perfectly consistent in his approach to riders getting a tow from him or lollygagging on the racing line and we have repeatedly discussed the safety ramifications of doing so....surely Karel would have realized this has been recently highlighted and is NOT deemed to be acceptable behaviour and that Stoner is the one rider who will definitely react to this dangerous habit - some riders seem to continue to do this and again he has reacted rightly or wrongly. Maybe KA thought he would do it simply to annoy Stoner as he made the recent allegation (wrongfully IMO) that he didn't deserve to be in the top class....I think KA has proved beyond reasonable doubt he is indeed worthy of a ride in this class but he along with a few others need to curb this habit before something serious does happen.

You are arguing two things to pad one. We are talking about a tow, not any balking or as you say "lollygaging on the race line". This was NOT a case of lollygagging on the race line now was it? Stoner seemed to be annoyed that Karel would attempt a tow. This has zero to do with safety (unless the attempted tow got in Stoner's way, but that hasn't been part of this equation, has it?). So why try and make it into one my friend. There are two things you are mentioning here, only one happened. Casey just doesn't like others getting a tow. People overtake on the practice session all the time, as long as they are safely off the raceline. Did Stoner accuse Karel of balking or being on the race line?

And as I said, this is not an argument about the morality of getting a tow. It has zero to do with it.

Mr Squiggle said:
If I am proven wrong and evidence comes to light showing Stoner was indeed in the wrong he should DEFINITELY be punished in a way that will hopefully prevent it ever happening again....but I did say IF! I haven't seen the incident nor have you...I have only read what has been reported by people who were there and NO-ONE has mentioned a "brake check" as you seem to categorically state was the case.

You may have another word for it. So what do you call somebody intentionally chapping the throttle "to prevent" (that is interrupt another rider) from following?

Jumkie · Jul 5, 2011

Mick D said:
The point of a tow in testing is to learn a faster riders lines, breaking points and scim whatever info you can!!!!

Ah yes, thanks Sherlock. But its not easily done, as Stoner seems to be a bit of a mystery. I think the questions had a different intent.

Keshav · Jul 5, 2011

Nino said:
According to me - No one seems to get on well with Stoner apart from Lorenzo...and that won't last much longer if Lorenzo keeps beating him.

Fixed it for you.

According to me -No one seems to get on well with Bino apart from Talpa...

but as long as he feels like he's successful at making

his point (whatever that is) he'll keep popping in from time to time.

Jumkie · Jul 5, 2011

Keshav said:
You boys.

All the time bitching and moaning over the lack of close racing and then

when Stoner gives you some - you ..... and moan some more. Damned if you do - damned if

you don't.

Sounds like Stoner was warning Abraham off. I know if someone did that to me, I'd think twice

about trying to shadow him. I could definitely see Doohan pulling something like that.

Ah, my dear amigo, this was not "racing". It was practice.

That Stoner doesn't like it, I understand. That he brake checks a rider is another thing entirely.

Keshav · Jul 5, 2011

Jumkie said:
Ah, my dear amigo, this was not "racing". It was practice.

That Stoner doesn't like it, I understand. That he brake checks a rider is another thing entirely.

Buey! Just giving the obnoxiously obtuse a dose of their own medicine.

Jumkie · Jul 5, 2011

Keshav said:
Buey! Just giving the obnoxiously obtuse a dose of their own medicine.

Jaja, not sure why u bother bro. Nino? Please direct me to a worthwhile post of his.

Keshav · Jul 5, 2011

Nino said:
Yes it is. Someone should remind Stoner of that next time he flips out.

This (PS) is on the whole, just a bunch of mates tossing around opinions, with the occasional piss-taking

and now and then, the casting of jewels of wisdom. Someone should remind Bino of that next time he

throws a dummy-spit and starts calling people ....... etc that maybe he should try tone down the hostility

a notch or two - inasmuch as he's so concerned with comradeship.

chopperman · Jul 5, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
You love playing devils advocate huh Jumkie....I wonder if Stoner had not "insulted" your favourite rider a few weeks back if we would be having this conversation.

In my opinion if it was a DELIBERATE act and Stoner INTENDED for Abraham to crash into him - that is indeed a dangerous precedent and he should without doubt be punished. In this case it doesn't seem to be as he has EMPHATICALLY denied this allegation....and knowing Stoners past history he has IMO been honest and forthright in his conduct previously and I see no reason to doubt his integrity now...but of course I could be wrong in that assumption...it wouldn't be the first time

As I stated after the RDP incident I thought he deserved a 1 race ban as a $5000 fine IMO was inadequate...its pocket change for him or any top sportsmen for that matter but a race ban would DEFINITELY make him think twice about repeating what amounted to a physical assault on another rider occurring again....even if it was basically a "love tap" it is PLAIN WRONG and I stated it at the time.

The other side of the coin is that CS has been perfectly consistent in his approach to riders getting a tow from him or lollygagging on the racing line and we have repeatedly discussed the safety ramifications of doing so....surely Karel would have realized this has been recently highlighted and is NOT deemed to be acceptable behaviour and that Stoner is the one rider who will definitely react to this dangerous habit - some riders seem to continue to do this and again he has reacted rightly or wrongly. Maybe KA thought he would do it simply to annoy Stoner as he made the recent allegation (wrongfully IMO) that he didn't deserve to be in the top class....I think KA has proved beyond reasonable doubt he is indeed worthy of a ride in this class but he along with a few others need to curb this habit before something serious does happen.

If I am proven wrong and evidence comes to light showing Stoner was indeed in the wrong he should DEFINITELY be punished in a way that will hopefully prevent it ever happening again....but I did say IF! I haven't seen the incident nor have you...I have only read what has been reported by people who were there and NO-ONE has mentioned a "brake check" as you seem to categorically state was the case.

Firstly i have not read that stoner "EMPHATICALLY denied this ". I have only read the gpone article tho so have you read another ? This is all i read.

Abraham seemed to feel that Stoner deliberately moved over to cause the contact, while Casey lamented the Czech rider's habit of waiting around on track for a tow. Things finally calmed down after a few minutes had passed, with Karel finally going back to his garage, still looking infuriated.

secondly there is nothing in the rules against riders getting a tow or learning lines from faster riders. It's all part of the game and im sure stoner did it when he was a rookie.

This was NOT a race, it was just testing ffs !

Jumkie · Jul 5, 2011

chopperman said:
Firstly i have not read that stoner "EMPHATICALLY denied this ". I have only read the gpone article tho so have you read another ? This is all i read.

From motomatters:

Abraham accusing Stoner of having barged into him, Stoner denying it emphatically, the collision a result of Abraham trying to get a tow from Stoner, and Stoner backing off the throttle to prevent him from doing so

Both sites reporting that Karel accused Stoner of barging/ramming/make some cause of intentional move which resulted in contact. But even if its like Mr. Squigz says, it was just Stoner letting off the throttle where the rear rider thought it was unexpected and in this case resulted it contact, that is a problem.

chopperman said:
secondly there is nothing in the rules against riders getting a tow or learning lines from faster riders. It's all part of the game and im sure stoner did it when he was a rookie.

This was NOT a race, it was just testing ffs !

Not sure why peeps thinking bring up the issue of the merits of towing has any barring on break checking (or as others call it something else...) Suddenly peeps are splitting hairs and looking for 'justification' of Stoner's action on this case. Its not cool. Like I said, I don't know either of them personally, but just from our media reports Stoner historically has been annoyed and Karel, well he's sorta invisible, but he perceived something enough to want to confront Stoner face to face in the garage (which suddenly there is this call for us to actually be there otherwise our opinions are meaningless...)

Mental Anarchist · Jul 5, 2011

The way I see it MotoGP is a competitive sport and the competitors want to protect what makes them successful. In the past Rossi has sort to protect the political and mechanical advantage he has had by preventing his team mates from getting the same equipment or sharing his data. Stoner on the other hand has never sort to have a political or mechanical advantage over his team mates because his advantage is out on the track where he uses unique lines and unique techniques. In a race there is nothing Stoner can do to prevent his competitors following his lines apart from checking out in front. But in practice and qualifying he can and in my opinion has every right to take actions to protect his personal competitive advantage.

As none of us have seen the incident and we are relying on a 3rd party's opinion of what happened and a 3rd party's opinion of what Stoner was thinking at that precise moment I think at best it is arrogant to suggest that any of our views on the alleged incident are even remotely accurate.

I also suggest caution is required from now on in interpreting the 'media's' view on anything Stoner does in regards to practice and qualifying as it is the new way for them to sell copy. It is also my experience that NO media outlet gets things 100% correct EVER.

chopperman · Jul 5, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
The way I see it MotoGP is a competitive sport and the competitors want to protect what makes them successful. In the past Rossi has sort to protect the political and mechanical advantage he has had by preventing his team mates from getting the same equipment or sharing his data. Stoner on the other hand has never sort to have a political or mechanical advantage over his team mates because his advantage is out on the track where he uses unique lines and unique techniques. In a race there is nothing Stoner can do to prevent his competitors following his lines apart from checking out in front. But in practice and qualifying he can and in my opinion has every right to take actions to protect his personal competitive advantage.

As none of us have seen the incident and we are relying on a 3rd party's opinion of what happened and a 3rd party's opinion of what Stoner was thinking at that precise moment I think at best it is arrogant to suggest that any of our views on the alleged incident are even remotely accurate.

I also suggest caution is required from now on in interpreting the 'media's' view on anything Stoner does in regards to practice and qualifying as it is the new way for them to sell copy. It is also my experience that NO media outlet gets things 100% correct EVER.

He braked checked a rookie for .... sake ! As for 3rd party opinion ,don't make me laugh. We have seen numerous times what casey is capable of.

Top kudos to Karel for going and confronting him. It's about time someone had the balls to do so.

Jumkie · Jul 5, 2011

Mental, again welcome back buddy, u just made a lengthly case for anybody being annoyed with peeps getting a tow. That is a tangent to the incident.

Also, the vast majority of all OUR opinions are based on media reports. So now suddenly the argument is made that all our opinions are arrogant unless we wer flies on the wall? Uhm, so WE may ALL hav to go back and edit our posts. Should we start quoting opinions of controversial incidents we've made from the past? Even when we hav video, opinions are completely opposed. Even the riders themselves hav opposing opinions. Why on this incident suddenly its "arrogant" to formulate an opinion from different sites reporting on the same basic incident? Hell, even the two riders involved here completely disagree. So its a matter who u believe then, right? Stoner, who has an overreaction just about every event, document both by video and those suddenly unbelievable media outlets vs Karel, who barely makes a blip but was pissed enuf with the 'aledged' incident to confront Stoner face to face.

Ok, so no more opinions by us unless we wer ther right?

Arrabbiata1 · Jul 5, 2011

chopperman said:
He braked checked a rookie for .... sake ! As for 3rd party opinion ,don't make me laugh. We have seen numerous times what casey is capable of.

Top kudos to Karel for going and confronting him. It's about time someone had the balls to do so.

Casey was quite clearly in the wrong here - as he was in the case of the DePuniet incident. I think he should have gone into Karel's garage and made a heatfelt sincere personal apology...........

.............with a camera crew in tow and his helmet still on

chopperman · Jul 5, 2011

Arrabbiata1 said:
Casey was quite clearly in the wrong here - as he was in the case of the DePuniet incident. I think he should have gone into Karel's garage and made a heatfelt sincere personal apology...........

.............with a camera crew in tow and his helmet still on

Yeah, after mocking rossi for it appears casey isn't even man enough to do that !

Mental Anarchist · Jul 5, 2011

Jumkie said:
Mental, u just made a lengthly case for anybody being annoyed with peeps getting a tow. That is a tangent to the incident.

Also, the vast majority of all OUR opinions are based on media reports. So now suddenly the argument is made that all our opinions are arrogant unless we wer flies on the wall? Uhm, so WE may ALL hav to go back and edit our posts. Should we start quoting opinions of controversial incidents we've made from the past? Even when we hav video, opinions are completely opposed. Even the riders themselves hav opposing opinions. Why on this incident suddenly its "arrogant" to formulate an opinion from different sites reporting on the same basic incident? Hell, even the two riders involved here completely disagree. So its a matter who u believe then, right? Stoner, who has an overreaction just about every event, document both by video and those suddenly unbelievable media outlets vs Karel, who barely makes a blip but was pissed enuf with the 'aledged' incident to confront Stoner face to face.

Ok, so no more opinions by us unless we wer ther right?

I have no objection to people having diferent views or formulating views when actual footage is available, which most of the time is the case. In this case there is no footage of the incident or Karel confronting Stoner. Therefore for people to be making definitive judgements is arrogant.

As far as several outlets reporting the same thing I would suggest that this is probably a regurgitation of the same or at best a couple of opinions. If lots of people say that something happened from your experience does it always make it correct.

You will notice in my post that I have said no where that in this case Stoner is right or wrong. What I have said is that I believe he has a right to protect his competitive advantage.

As far as brake checking, the report says he rolled off the throttle, no mention of brakes. And those that claim that this is dangerous where were you when Rossi BRAKE checked Stoner at Laguna 08 and caused him to go of the track and fall. I recall Rog you saying this was good racecraft.

chopperman · Jul 5, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
I have no objection to people having diferent views or formulating views when actual footage is available, which most of the time is the case. In this case there is no footage of the incident or Karel confronting Stoner. Therefore for people to be making definitive judgements is arrogant.

As far as several outlets reporting the same thing I would suggest that this is probably a regurgitation of the same or at best a couple of opinions. If lots of people say that something happened from your experience does it always make it correct.

You will notice in my post that I have said no where that in this case Stoner is right or wrong. What I have said is that I believe he has a right to protect his competitive advantage.

As far as brake checking, the report says he rolled off the throttle, no mention of brakes. And those that claim that this is dangerous where were you when Rossi BRAKE checked Stoner at Laguna 08 and caused him to go of the track and fall. I recall Rog you saying this was good racecraft.

Firstly i never bought into the rossi brake checking at guna 08, i just said it was hot close racing so get your facts straight ! secondly this was not a close racing incident, in fact it wasn't even a race !.

As for your if it's not on vid we can't believe it. With that logic we can ignore the statement in motomatters about stoner denying it wasn't deliberate because we have no video of him saying it ??

Bunyip · Jul 5, 2011

I don,t think that there can be any argument at all over culpability.

Over here in Australia (caseyville) , anybody hitting another motorist from behind is deemed as the guilty party.

.......it's called not keeping a safe distance.

...........................argument over

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