MotoGP less exciting.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Aug 25 2007, 11:48 PM)



Something good had better happen or the off-season will start now and last another 7 months. mellow.gif Don't tell anyone, but I'm secretly rooting for Rossi to win the title with only 3 race wins so we can all ask whether or not he is deserving. tongue.gif

now thats pretty funny

The mistake was bringing into two big rule changes at the same time - the engines and the tyres. Only one should have been changed (the tyres) and the affect it had assessed and then if necessary the other (the engine) changed. We may be blaming the tyres for the "bad" racing but has the new engine rule damaged it more so. (It's all relative of course, we still have more good races - Assen, Mugello, Catalunya - than some types of racing have in a decade!)

I still can't understand why there was any need to change the engine size. Who pushed for it?

Changing the tyre rule is okay though it may need to be tweaked to allow more tyres per weekend.

At the end of the day I don't mind if Casey or whoever wins every race. It's how they win the races that make it exciting. At Brno, it was all over by the first lap - we would only get a different winner if Casey binned it and so far this year he just doesn't do that.

Steve

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Aug 29 2007, 01:52 PM) [snapback]87350[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think theres alot of hate for casey but not because hes going away at the front some races. If he didn't have the speed advantage or the no1 tyres right now and was still going away infront i would drop my jaw and praise him.

but he was beaten at Mugello by Barros on the customer Desmo so i dunno.


I don't quite understand what you're saying here... You say that Casey is going away up front only because of the bike speed & tyres but as many others have repeatedly pointed out, with the exception of Mugello (as you rightly noted) & Germany there are normally no other Ducati's within sight of Casey as he crosses the finish line!

Does this mean that the Ducati equipped multiple GP winners in Capirex & Barros are that useless?? I doubt it...

And the 2 exceptions noted have both been cases where the suppossedly all conquering Bridgestone tyres haven't quite done the job...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Valerian @ Sep 1 2007, 09:23 AM) [snapback]88023[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The mistake was bringing into two big rule changes at the same time - the engines and the tyres. Only one should have been changed (the tyres) and the affect it had assessed and then if necessary the other (the engine) changed. We may be blaming the tyres for the "bad" racing but has the new engine rule damaged it more so.

yep, ive said it was daft to bring in those two rule changes at the same time.
i think they should have introduced the 800 engine size first and left the tyre rule out for a season so all the teams could gather the tyre data needed, this is also a safety issue imo

I think motogp is less exciting but I think it has nothing to do with Stoners performance or the new tyre rule. We are seeing riders throughout the field spread out even when they are on the same bike and/or tyres. I think this affect is being caused by the advancement in the engineering and technology being used on the bikes. I don’t mean electronics particularly, but every part is made with such precision and to such a small tolerance (think fuel measurements race specific lubricant) that a well setup bike is almost completely optimized.

The result of this is a bike who’s rider can ride at his given pace as soon as he settles into his rhythm to the end of the race. We see the closest grids ever because motogp is so competitive, but with the bikes all being ridden at their maximum for race distance they will separate out as soon as the bikes have filtered into the order of their relative pace.

You may also have noticed that the nearest to a battle we get from any race is usually the lower positions (usually the edge of the top 10) and I think this also fits in with my theory. The riders in those positions are usually the guys who have failed to get the best from their machinery and have not fully optimized their package. This means that their bike may not handle or perform ideally or consistently for the entire race, and the rider may also still be looking for solutions within themselves. The result of this will be larger fluctuations in their speed throughout the race and larger differenced in speed between the riders (which allows passing).

I think the best riders still end up getting the best results but the focus has moved slightly from being on race craft and passing techniques to finding a setup and not making mistakes (F1 anyone). This is something that has been inevitable since the switch to 4-stroke was made, and as long as the technology continues to advance like this the situation will get worse.

Stoner is hardly the ideal candidate you want to be in front and still enjoy the race or you probably end up switching off earley.

There is no reason whatsover with the pts lead he has he could not even have a little entertainment with Vermeualen and Hopper the race before.

I would not like to have been sitting in the stands at Misano, well at least it didn't rain

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Sep 5 2007, 05:17 PM) [snapback]88964[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Stoner is hardly the ideal candidate you want to be in front and still enjoy the race or you probably end up switching off earley.

There is no reason whatsover with the pts lead he has he could not even have a little entertainment with Vermeualen and Hopper the race before.

I would not like to have been sitting in the stands at Misano, well at least it didn't rain


an4rew,

I think that most of us agree with you in that as an overall spectacle racing in any form will suffer if you constantly have someone that is completely dominant.

And as to whether seeing this dominant person out front & strutting his considerable stuff is good value entertainment, well that's up to the individual I guess!

Bottom line is the riders are paid by their respective factories to go out & win races... & the more the merrier.

If you have someone who tries to muck around & spice up the entertainment factor for the fans, then they might end up like Bayliss did at Phillip Island this year & cost yourself the race win... ( No offense to JT intended ).

Even the most ardent Vale fan must admit that there were times when he was so totally in control of MotoGP that it wasn't all that "entertaining" either... so I guess that we'll just have to wait for the others to catch up again!

[quote name='muzzy57' date='Sep 5 2007, 09:41 AM' post='88980']
an4rew,

I think that most of us agree with you in that as an overall spectacle racing in any form will suffer if you constantly have someone that is completely dominant.

very true, i remember people saying gp was boring when doohan doninated and also rossi altho not as much because he did it with a bit more style.
mabe its the tv producers fault,after all we only get to see what they show us. mabe they should not focus the camera so much on the rider thats running away with it but look for the racing further down the field but i expect the sponsors would have something to say about that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Keshav @ Aug 27 2007, 08:28 PM) [snapback]87043[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
The thing is, given another season for the riders to adjust to the new engine capacity, new tire rule, new fuel rules, and the stupid traction control . . . they will adjust and find new ways to race competitively. This is not unlike when the Honda's NCR had been a piece of crap, and then the Honda people came up the the "Big Bang" firing sequence to make the NCRs more tractable. For a while, Honda was runing away with everything. Then the other teams brought digital recorders and ran recordings of the NCR through and occiloscope and were able to reproduce Honda's firing sequence. Practially overnight all the 500cc bikes were much more tractable and riders were saying, "Now everybody can race the 500s". It's not so different with traction control. Still I agree that it should be done away with. A big part of the problem is the 800cc displacement. It puts all the emphasis on corner entry rather than corner speed - which makes for a very bad narrowing of choices for lines - which in turn means, very little passing. Hopefully the riders have a season or more to acclimate and find new ways to ride competitively. Tho you never know. Kenny Roberts said in an interview a few months ago that Dorna/FIM were already discussing reducing the displacement to 700 or even 600.
KD
I remember reading about Suzuki and Yamaha guys analysing recordings of Honda tests to determine firing order, cold war stuff, great. I think you're right though, it's much too early to write off 800's as a bad move. Bring back 990's, now that would be a bad move. Designing a 990cc that makes 260bhp+ is easy. Robert's theory that Dorna are already talking about reducing capacity further seems very credible. 800cc can make 220-ish bhp so there's lots of room for 4-stroke tech development by racing 700 or even 600 prototypes. The reduced power would mean the focus could be even more on corner speed. Maybe then it would seem natural to put a ban on TC. All sounds good for racing from a fans point of view. What would you replace 250's with though?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skidmark @ Sep 5 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]88987[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I remember reading about Suzuki and Yamaha guys analysing recordings of Honda tests to determine firing order, cold war stuff, great. I think you're right though, it's much too early to write off 800's as a bad move. Bring back 990's, now that would be a bad move. Designing a 990cc that makes 260bhp+ is easy. Robert's theory that Dorna are already talking about reducing capacity further seems very credible. 800cc can make 220-ish bhp so there's lots of room for 4-stroke tech development by racing 700 or even 600 prototypes. The reduced power would mean the focus could be even more on corner speed. Maybe then it would seem natural to put a ban on TC. All sounds good for racing from a fans point of view. What would you replace 250's with though?



To answer the 250 question, and this is gonna sound strange coming from me, Mr "I love 2 strokes", but I think that 450 4 stroke singles or even twins, would be a good move. Go the same way as the moto x bikes are going. I think that would be more in keeping with the style of riding that a 250 requires. You could keep them small and light in the way you couldnt with a multi.

Going to 600 multis, as has already been discussed is going to be like racing hot rod supersport bikes, or detuned superbikes IMO.

All the japs are making works 4 stroke crossers now, and Aprillia have the 450 V twin, so developing road racing engines would be a new challenge on a style of engine they have already designed. Ducati made the awesome Supermono, so I'm sure we see a grid of intresting, and different bikes.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(basspete @ Sep 5 2007, 12:58 PM) [snapback]88997[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
To answer the 250 question, and this is gonna sound strange coming from me, Mr "I love 2 strokes", but I think that 450 4 stroke singles or even twins, would be a good move. Go the same way as the moto x bikes are going. I think that would be more in keeping with the style of riding that a 250 requires. You could keep them small and light in the way you couldnt with a multi.

Going to 600 multis, as has already been discussed is going to be like racing hot rod supersport bikes, or detuned superbikes IMO.

All the japs are making works 4 stroke crossers now, and Aprillia have the 450 V twin, so developing road racing engines would be a new challenge on a style of engine they have already designed. Ducati made the awesome Supermono, so I'm sure we see a grid of intresting, and different bikes.

Pete
Makes total sense. 600 or 700 prototypes, without traction OR launch control, and with a lower weight limit ( oooooh, getting twitchy and mean and nasty like GP bikes are supposed to be ) as the main event. But with 250 singles or 450 twins to replace the support classes, with regulations to keep costs to a minimum and grids bursting. Sounds mouthwatering.

well, i had a chance to introduce some people to motogp last weekend as i was hanging with some old friends and had the race on my laptop. i hadn't watched the race yet so i didn't know it was another snore-fest. i'm soooo glad i didn't watch with those guys because i doubt they'd have given it another chance had they did.

can you imagine trying to back up the statement that "motogp is most exciting motorsport on the planet" after watching that race with people who've never seen a motogp race before?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skidmark @ Sep 5 2007, 10:26 PM) [snapback]89010[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Makes total sense. 600 or 700 prototypes, without traction OR launch control, and with a lower weight limit ( oooooh, getting twitchy and mean and nasty like GP bikes are supposed to be ) as the main event. But with 250 singles or 450 twins to replace the support classes, with regulations to keep costs to a minimum and grids bursting. Sounds mouthwatering.


And the Michelins as the "only" tyre in motoGP!! and Rossi the only rider in motoGP...what else????...250 350 450 550 600 or 700's???...

You Have to be Kidding Me!!!...

If it ...”Aint BROKE”!!!...Don’t fix it!!!...

The 800's are perfectly FINE!!!...or but some are sooo crossed and pissed off with the 800’s the Michelins....but you should be ‘Pissed Off with their riders!!!.... .

Thank You Very Much!!! ...excuses...excuses!!!

Strangely enough, I sat my parents down in front of the Mugello telecast to watch their first MotoGP race & they watched the whole thing through & loved it.

Probably had something to do with a couple of aussie young guns disappearing into the sunset that made them enjoy it though!

Ah well... we've had seasons of Americans winning all the races and seasons of Italians winning all the races in the past, so maybe it's just the aussies turn again... c'est la vie!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(muzzy57 @ Sep 6 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]89204[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Strangely enough, I sat my parents down in front of the Mugello telecast to watch their first MotoGP race & they watched the whole thing through & loved it.

Probably had something to do with a couple of aussie young guns disappearing into the sunset that made them enjoy it though!

Ah well... we've had seasons of Americans winning all the races and seasons of Italians winning all the races in the past, so maybe it's just the aussies turn again... c'est la vie!


I think you are right Muzz ... where you come from probably has a lot to do with how you view this season. I would maintain however that we have had a lot of very good races this season!

Rossi was/is probably a once in a generation rider ... charasmatic and exceptionally talented ... he bought a lot of new fans to motorcycle racing (happily I can say I've been a fan a lot longer that he has been on the world circuit)! Stoner seems to have driven a wedge in the audience this year ... he just reminds me of Mick Doohan ... totally focussed on what he has to do and whether that appeases a world audience they just don't give a fck ... it will however make their employer VERY happy ie Ducati). Noticed Stoner's new starting grid routine ... squats on the starting line looking straight ahead ... totally focussed on himself and the race, basically in a world of his own!

Just today watched the "Troy Bayliss Story" on DVD ... he said something that meant a lot ... "I just came to Europe to make a living for me and my family ... I don't care about championships ... I just want to win races and provide for my family"! Pretty much sums up the Australian pshyche I think! At the end he says with a beer in hand and a big grin "well that's the Troy Bayliss story ... if you don't like it you can fck off" His Ducati crew laughed!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ThePhorest @ Sep 6 2007, 03:08 PM) [snapback]89201[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
It's good to know that Dorna are aware of how boring this season has been. I just hope they'll be able to do something about it!!


What did Dorna say about this season being "boring" ??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CSCVAW @ Sep 6 2007, 05:54 AM) [snapback]89199[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
And the Michelins as the "only" tyre in motoGP!! and Rossi the only rider in motoGP...what else????...250 350 450 550 600 or 700's???...

You Have to be Kidding Me!!!...

If it ...”Aint BROKE”!!!...Don’t fix it!!!...

The 800's are perfectly FINE!!!...or but some are sooo crossed and pissed off with the 800’s the Michelins....but you should be ‘Pissed Off with their riders!!!....

calm down there watson, don't get your knickers in a twist. Not everybody reckons 800's are boring. I've seen more exciting races but it's definitely far from boring. I'm not going to turn into one of those guys that goes into denial about how amazing motoGP is just beacuse some guys aren't winning and one certain racer betrayed us all by calling it boring and hilariously comparing the race to F1.

Anyway einstein. C'mon, what would you do with 250's?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skidmark @ Sep 6 2007, 06:14 PM) [snapback]89218[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
:
Anyway einstein. C'mon, what would you do with 250's?

Like in MX 450 singles or twins should work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skidmark @ Sep 6 2007, 06:14 PM) [snapback]89218[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
calm down there watson, don't get your knickers in a twist. Not everybody reckons 800's are boring. I've seen more exciting races but it's definitely far from boring. I'm not going to turn into one of those guys that goes into denial about how amazing motoGP is just beacuse some guys aren't winning and one certain racer betrayed us all by calling it boring and hilariously comparing the race to F1.

Anyway einstein. C'mon, what would you do with 250's?



Skidmark...the 250cc have definitely got to be converted into 4 strokes...even though the Aprilia, the KTM and whoever else doesn’t like it!!!...it’s should be inevitable that the most and the most popular motorcycles in Europe should be converted for the environment to 4 strokes!!!...and NOT those coffee gridenders like the 2 strokes!!!...It’s as simple as that!!!

And I'm NO einstein smart arse!!!...but that is what I feel and I tell it like it is...no diplomacy here or holding back on the inevitable!!! skid!!!