MotoGP less exciting.

Folks, I’ve decided to compare the years of 2002 & 2007 as they are respectively the first years of the 990cc era & the 800cc era. Below is what I’ve found, but I’m afraid that it’s not as helpful as I’d hoped it would be:

[attachmentid=2195]

It is interesting to note that in even in the otherwise competitive 2002 season, there was still 2 races that had BIG (around 8+ sec) margins of victory achieved by Vale in Portugal & Australia.

So far in the 2007 season we’ve had 4 that would fall into that category with France, Britain, Germany & USA. (Two of these were wet weather races though.)

So far there has been 6 out of 12 races where the winning margin has been about 3 seconds or less in 2007 compared with the 14 given to us in 2002, but we still have 6 races to go so maybe that will improve. (Also in 2002, 8 times it was a Honda 1-2, we’re yet to see a Ducati 1-2 I believe?)

Another interesting stat is the margin to 3rd place… 2002 threw us 9 races where 3rd place finished further behind than the 8 second benchmark I’m using & 2007 has given us 7 occasions so far.

Obviously the average winning margin from 1st to 2nd was generally less in '02 but the question is, did Rossi do as has been suggested in another post and use only enough speed & aggression as was required to win the race during ‘02 while keeping the fans happy, or was his performance simply the best that he could produce on the day each time around… hard to judge from here.

Your thoughts??

2002 really is not the 1st real year of the 990s since it was a mix of 500s and 990s...and the RC211V was much better than any Honda 500. You have use 2003 more as an measure of the 1st real year of the 990s, at least in my view.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Aug 24 2007, 11:53 PM) [snapback]86689[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
2002 really is not the 1st real year of the 990s since it was a mix of 500s and 990s...and the RC211V was much better than any Honda 500. You have use 2003 more as an measure of the 1st real year of the 990s, at least in my view.


MigsAngel..nice to meet you and read you’re post...but please I would really like to ask you what was the name that you gave me???...I’m really curious mate!!!...you know, after I lost that bet with Israeli Racer???...please note that this is only for my information...thank you

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CSCVAW @ Aug 24 2007, 04:05 PM) [snapback]86696[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
MigsAngel..nice to meet you and read you’re post...but please I would really like to ask you what was the name that you gave me???...I’m really curious mate!!!...you know, after I lost that bet with Israeli Racer???...please note that this is only for my information...thank you


Do you ask because that is the name you will be getting as a result of not wining the Bruno bet?
If it is then I can't spoil the surprise...

Ok Ill let the cat out of the bag the secret new name is...



Banned

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skipton @ Aug 24 2007, 12:44 AM) [snapback]86632[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
... On the contrary Stoner is very skilled with starts, then he doesn't need to pass several riders in order to gain the head of races.


it's called launch control. you hold the throttle WFO, pop the clutch and the computer does everything else for you. stoner is no more skilled with starts than a trained monkey. i'm not taking anything away from him or any other rider; i'm just saying that it's a mistake to compliment any rider using launch control for "skill" with starts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Aug 24 2007, 06:53 AM) [snapback]86689[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
2002 really is not the 1st real year of the 990s since it was a mix of 500s and 990s...and the RC211V was much better than any Honda 500. You have use 2003 more as an measure of the 1st real year of the 990s, at least in my view.



agree, it was a mixed grid and the 500s were getting spanked.

Well this has been a fun discussion. Muzzy and Lexicon, you guys make some great points as well a drumf. Yeah, I guess we can make the case for boring or exciting racing. I think you guys are right pointing out some things about this year’s racing compared to previous years. I must say, its also refreshing to see people make an opinion and back it up with a reasonable argument. I for one wish I could return to the 80-90s of racing, but things change.

I'm one of the ones that think it’s exciting this year. But that may be because I'm fairly addicted to motorcycle racing and when it comes around on Sunday, it's like getting my fix. Plus, having been on the track, I am amazed at what these guys can do, really, even the last place markers. I was just reviewing Donington's race last night and thought, damn that was an exciting race. Perhaps this may be an exception, but then again I was remembering the race at Qatar and Jerez, oh who could forget Turkey this year. I keep all the races on a DVR (Digital Video Recorder) and I review a race about three or four times a week. I always seem to pick up something different went watching it again. (I sure wish somebody somewhere had the entire race videos for the 80-90s races--I have all the year reviews but they are just highlights).

Sure, I guess one could make the case that some years have been closer than others. If that were the measure of excitement, than sure 02-05 could be considered less exciting, or perhaps even 07. If the measure of excitement were multiple winners, then 80-mid 90s, certainly 06 would be considered more exciting than 94-98 or 01-05. But I measure excitement differently. So I guess perhaps we are all right, based on what is exciting to us.

We are all right with the exception of this ludicrous argument that the 06 champion was "lucky" or whatever stupid reason given other than earning it as any other champion in history. But I've kinda given up on trying to convince the odd and dying breed of those who think such points of view. I think it says much more about themselves and their knowledge and intelligence than it does about the merits of their opinion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Aug 24 2007, 09:58 AM) [snapback]86707[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
...stoner is no more skilled with starts than a trained monkey.

.....i'm not taking anything away from him

That’s funny. But yes, electronics have changed the face of racing. I say, ban TC, bring back 990s, and impose a control tire.

As a matter of fact, I think the engine capacity should be unlimited. Why even put a limit on power? The power will be self regulated based on usability anyway. We get this idea in our heads that having all the bikes on the same number of cubic centimeters makes them "equal", but that's not true, just look at Team Roberts and any of the other back markers. I say make the capacity limitless. Its not like the 800s are any safer. They are faster where accidents occur more readily, on curves. To have gone to the 800s under the auspices that they are “safer” is complete and under .........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Aug 24 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]86711[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
That’s funny. But yes, electronics have changed the face of racing. I say, ban TC, bring back 990s, and impose a control tire.

As a matter of fact, I think the engine capacity should be unlimited. Why even put a limit on power? The power will be self regulated based on usability anyway. We get this idea in our heads that having all the bikes on the same number of cubic centimeters makes them "equal", but that's not true, just look at Team Roberts and any of the other back markers. I say make the capacity limitless. Its not like the 800s are any safer. They are faster where accidents occur more readily, on curves. To have gone to the 800s under the auspices that they are “safer” is complete and under .........



haha, you know what i mean. i was just surprised that someone would say that anybody using launch control has some kind of "skill" with starts. gotta keep the facts straight, you know?

anyways, to clarify what i think i and most people mean by exciting racing is not so much that one rider does or does not dominate a calendar year. it has much more to do with individual races.

for example; as mentioned above, rossi may have a lot of wins and championships, but it wasn't like he started every race from pole (or 2 or 3) or dominated FP and Q every time. and while he sometimes cleared off, he also had many great battles for wins; sometimes winning, sometimes taking 2nd or worse.

however, with the way 07 season has gone, when stoner has come out and dominated FP and Q; it's a foregone conclusion that he's gonna win. that's not exciting because we already know the outcome. knowing that someone has 1+ seconds on the rest of the grid friday and saturday takes away the thrill of knowing how the race will play out on sunday.

if rossi Qs 11th, yeah, we may say "oh, he'll win it, he's done it before", but we don't know for sure. if stoner takes pole because his pace is 1+ seconds faster than everybody else during FP, we all pretty much know he's going to win.

that's what's taking away the excitement this year. and you know what? congrats to ducati and stoner and bridgestone. through hard work, paying their dues, and coming out prepared to race under the new rules, they've decimated the competition. but that doesn't mean that the racing has been exciting.

another point is that, yes, there can be enjoyment watching the guys go in circles, manhandling the ferocious GP machines around the corners. but sadly, even that is no longer exciting because of the capacity and computers. everything is tidy. everything is in-line. what a freakn snore-fest. on the 500s and even the 990s, at least if you're just watching 1 guy clear off, there was still some excitement seeing the 500 stroker rip and snarl around the corners and exits. now? total yawn.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Aug 24 2007, 02:02 PM) [snapback]86738[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
even that is no longer exciting because of the capacity and computers. everything is tidy. everything is in-line. what a freakn snore-fest. on the 500s and even the 990s, at least if you're just watching 1 guy clear off, there was still some excitement seeing the 500 stroker rip and snarl around the corners and exits. now? total yawn.

Haha, I see your point but I'm not gonna call it a snore-fest. Did you see Catalunya this year? Dude, they were almost three abreast the entire second half of the race. Rossi and Stoner each not wanting to give up the lead and Pedrosa just arms length behind (and you must admit, that's a pretty short arm). I'm a Hayden fan, in that race he came in a dismal 11th place, but you know I was on the edge of my seat the entire race. Valentino had the pole (I think) and was quickly sent to 4th. He scraped with Hopkins a few laps while it seemed Pedrosa and Stoner would pull away from the pack. But here comes Rossi, scrapping with Hopkins then gets ahead, then out breaks Pedrosa, and the rest was a bar fight between him and Stoner, with Pedrosa hoping they would commit a mistake. Man, that was exciting.

What about Donington? Colin Edwards on pole, leads for half the race, while Stoner was something like 12th. Hopkins and Pedrosa were catching up to Edwards while Stoner charges to the front pack in what seemed to be impossible. Then Pedrosa takes the lead from Edwards in the freaking rain no less. And for a few moments you got Anthony West battling with Rossi for positions, just before Vermuelen scraps with Rossi. Stoner finally reaches the front, and Edwards hangs on for a 2nd place finish, while the rest of the field, yes even my favorite Hayden, takes a dump on his bike while in a respectable 4th. Man, that was exciting.

Oh, do I need to recap Turkey?

I realize you have great point but you couldn’t convince me about it lacking excitiment. But then again, I'm kinda easy to please. Just put some bikes on a track going at least 200 MPH+ and I'm hooked.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Aug 24 2007, 04:36 PM) [snapback]86700[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Do you ask because that is the name you will be getting as a result of not wining the Bruno bet?
If it is then I can't spoil the surprise...



Can anyone on this forum spell BRNO?!?!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Aug 24 2007, 06:25 PM) [snapback]86711[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
That’s funny. But yes, electronics have changed the face of racing. I say, ban TC, bring back 990s, and impose a control tire.

As a matter of fact, I think the engine capacity should be unlimited. Why even put a limit on power? The power will be self regulated based on usability anyway. We get this idea in our heads that having all the bikes on the same number of cubic centimeters makes them "equal", but that's not true, just look at Team Roberts and any of the other back markers. I say make the capacity limitless. Its not like the 800s are any safer. They are faster where accidents occur more readily, on curves. To have gone to the 800s under the auspices that they are “safer” is complete and under .........

Interesting you mention that. I think a bit more variation could be good for the championship, especially if we go to a control tyre. I was thinking the other day about turbochargers on bikes, and maybe they should be given a chance in motogp. They'd be frighteningly powerful but very difficult to ride on the edge. Smaller turbocharged bikes against bigger normally aspirated ones, it'd make an interesting battle. But then again, im not much of a techie, so I dont know if itd work for real.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Aug 24 2007, 12:30 AM) [snapback]86631[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Hayden is having a normal year this year...normal for him anyway.

2003 - 2 podiums ends season in 5th
2004 - 2 podiums ends season in 8th
2005 - 6 podiums 1 win ends season in 3rd
2006 - 10 podiums 2 wins ends season in 1st (Lucky)
2007 - 3 podiums so far will win no race this year and will end season in 7th (a Normal year for the his average skills)


Well at least now I know you're trolling. I thought for a while you were serious.

Racejumkie, you have said what I have been wanting to shout from the top of a damn mountain since I have started watching motorsports. MAKE CAPACITY UNLIMITED. If you feel a need to control performance, use the fuel tank or the circuit or tire dimensions. If this sport is as hot as they say, can we please get some more dedicated motorcycling circuits so we don't have to watch these puny 800's try to pull down a 1km straight?

If you force teams develop technology that has already been develped for nearly 100 years, eeking out a competitive advantage is going to cost $,$$$,$$$,$$$.$$--it's called the law of diminishing marginal returns. The cheapest way to keep big bucks from running away with every championship is to set minimum dimension requirements and let innovation change the face of the sport.

Some day if I get some serious bucks, racing will be fixed forever.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Orrmate @ Aug 24 2007, 05:02 PM) [snapback]86762[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I was thinking the other day about turbochargers on bikes, and maybe they should be given a chance in motogp.

Wow, now that's a thought. Do you remember that street bike that had a turbo in the late 80s. I think it was a Honda or Kawasaki. Remember they got rid of it cause it kept bucking people off in the corners. Haha, that was great. I think with the technology today, they could harness the power and utilize it on straights or drives out of corners. But I think it would come back to traction control. As of now, for me traction control is a bad word.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Aug 24 2007, 05:43 PM) [snapback]86768[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Well at least now I know you're trolling. I thought for a while you were serious.

MAKE CAPACITY UNLIMITED.

Funny man.


Yeah, I agree man. Find another way to push innovation.

I just finished watching the Italian round. Man was that exciting. Stoner from pole looks like he has the race in the bag, but then comes
Capirossi, both Ducatis on a drag race through that monster straight. Oh, Melandri battling at the front. All the while, Rossi comes from the back of the grid scrapping with everybody along the way. Rossi wins from way back, and Barros puts a move on the last lap to make the podium. Man, that was exciting.

You know, after further review, it seems to me there were more exciting races this year than dominant "boring" races. I think we sometimes have a short memory and judge the season by what has happened lately.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Aug 25 2007, 03:13 AM) [snapback]86708[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
We are all right with the exception of this ludicrous argument that the 06 champion was "lucky" or whatever stupid reason given other than earning it as any other champion in history.


Damn straight brother

I just love bikes & bike racing! And I'm sure that applies to everyone that is a member of this forum... they wouldn't be here otherwise!

As enthusiasts & individuals there will always be disagreements, which is as it should be. But ultimately, provided that the motorcycling world continues to improve, then we all benefit from it...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Aug 24 2007, 06:58 PM) [snapback]86707[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
it's called launch control. you hold the throttle WFO, pop the clutch and the computer does everything else for you. stoner is no more skilled with starts than a trained monkey. i'm not taking anything away from him or any other rider; i'm just saying that it's a mistake to compliment any rider using launch


Yes, I think every teams has it, maybe the Ducati one is better than Yamaha.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(phildean @ Aug 24 2007, 11:46 PM) [snapback]86750[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Can anyone on this forum spell BRNO?!?!

my misspelling was deliberate...and he gets my suggested name you will see why.

this year is definitely less exciting than last season. we've only had 4 winners and thats not likely to change we had 7 last year!

dont get me wrong, i think stoner is brilliant and deserves the title -more to the point so does ducati but christ the pattern of him being fastest in ALL practise sessions, getting the pole, leading the race from the first corner and winning by a mile is SO DAMN BORING!

i didnt expect a repeat of last year because that was exceptionally good but my god it wouldnt kill him to let someone else win for a change. think of us spectators casey a fight for second place just isnt the same!