MotoGP less exciting.

This years racing sucks to be honest. The head of Dorna said as much a few days ago though he blamed the tires:

One thing many riders don't agree with, especially those on Michelin like Rossi, is the limits on tires
I agree with Rossi, this tire limit is a mistake which we have to correct. It came about as the result of an agreement between the tire manufacturers, and I believe it is up to them to solve this problem.

Will it be removed for 2008?
It's up to the manufacturers to come to an agreement and see how to change it. I don't want to make any suggestions, and I think it's up to the manufacturers to come up with acceptable proposals if they want to avoid the series going to a single tire.

How do you feel when people say that it's the tires which are making the difference?
This is different to saying that Stoner is winning only because of his tires. It's true that they have become incredibly important, but there's more to it than that. The reason that this rule is not working well is very clear, at every race, one tire make dominates. People say that Stoner's victory at Laguna Seca was down to tires, but the previous weekend, it was Pedrosa who won by a mile with Michelins. The rule is bad because it has created large differences which weren't there before, and we have to return to a situation where they are less important. This is not a world tire championship, it's a championship of motorcycles and riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Son of Doohan @ Aug 23 2007, 01:08 AM) [snapback]86541[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Qatar and China.



really? i guess you could call those "close" races considering what we've been subjected to this season, but it's more of a sad statement that these are examples of "close racing" in the grands prix now.

for everyone's benefit, please take a look at these screenshots from suzuka 2001 (pic 1 and pic 2). notice that this is lap 9 of the race out of 21 laps; i.e., the race is halfway completed. yet, there are 8 riders in contention and with the nature of the 500s, any of these riders can win. there has been more passing the previous 9 laps on this one race than there has been for the lead of all the races of the '07 season to date. in fact, the riders in 9th and 10th at the back of the shots (leading the 2nd pack) have an excellent chance of taking the win. can anybody honestly say that this same dynamic exists in the grands prix today? sadly, the answer is no.

like i said previously, we have slowly been desensitized to the quality of racing and now there are actually apologists for the current level.

oh well, as they say, "all good things come to an end"

I this season has been great. We see one guy dominate over all others and crush his opposition. Doohan and Rossi did it and we loved it...so why complian now...?

The natural order of the universe is to have a 49ers, a Chelsea, a Schumaker, or a Federer...basically have an Alpha male tor which the rest bow and pay homage...Rossi is not the Silver Back Gorilla anymore and he feels it...and Nicky was just a weak feable and poor head Dog!

The only that would make it better is if we had 2 or 3 guys Wining races (about 6 each) consistently and fighting it out at the end.

I NEVER want to see another 2006 season again having a midpack rider wins 1 races and accidently take a second race...to then title by due the misfortune of the greater riders (gorillas).

Lastly, leave the tyre rule as it is...since these things go back and forth, and will all even out in about by 2009.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Aug 23 2007, 02:44 AM) [snapback]86553[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I this season has been great. We see one guy dominate over all others and crush his opposition. Doohan and Rossi did it and we loved it...so why complian now...?





see... this is a misconception that a lot of people have about rossi's career. the truth is that rossi won a lot of races on the last couple laps. but for some reason, everybody thinks that he came out and dominated everywhere like doohan did. that's just not true. rossi won races from pole and from the back of the grid. rossi sometimes walked away from everybody else and sometimes he won on the last corner (cough cough gibernau cough jerez).

i would argue that most people have a high opinion of rossi because he was able to do things like win from the back of the grid or a crappy start or overcome a time penalty; it's his ability to overcome adverse conditions and still win that people admire. i think it's this very reason that people aren't giving stoner any credit this season regardless of his record and form.

in any case, i really fail to see how anybody could argue that this season is any fun to watch. i mean, i'm open to hearing some specific reasons, but i haven't heard any good ones yet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Aug 23 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]86553[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I this season has been great. We see one guy dominate over all others and crush his opposition. Doohan and Rossi did it and we loved it...so why complian now...?


This is very true.... just a short history lesson here...

[attachmentid=2188][attachmentid=2189][attachmentid=2190][attachmentid=2191]

Where are the results all that different from now? ... I remember well that very few people regularly mixed it with Mick, & Vale's 2005 season was just incredible...

I guess that it depends on your definition of dominating... does that mean with wins or by beating the opposition by more than 10 seconds every time??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Aug 23 2007, 10:56 AM) [snapback]86554[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
see... this is a misconception that a lot of people have about rossi's career. the truth is that rossi won a lot of races on the last couple laps. but for some reason, everybody thinks that he came out and dominated everywhere like doohan did. that's just not true. rossi won races from pole and from the back of the grid. rossi sometimes walked away from everybody else and sometimes he won on the last corner (cough cough gibernau cough jerez).

I can agree with that assessment, but really if Rossi wanted to do so he could have pulled a Doohan or a Stoner at almost Every race on the Honda and on the Yamaha with the 'old' tyre rule. Also, Rossi was toying with his oponents, he wanted them to think they had a chance, so that he could then totally demoralize and break them so that later in the season they would give up (as Casey has done to everyone this year).

Rossi was just trying to make it fun for the fans. Think of Phillip Island in 2003....Rossi had to make up a 10 second penalty gap to win the race over Capirossi...in the end he won the race by 15.1 seconds, or officially 5.1 seconds.

Also one of the primary drivers for Rossi going to Yamaha was he knew he could pull a Casey at every race and Honda was telling it was the bike not his talent....so Rossi said okay watch me and went to Yamaha.

At least that is my view.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Aug 23 2007, 10:56 AM) [snapback]86554[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
see... this is a misconception that a lot of people have about rossi's career. the truth is that rossi won a lot of races on the last couple laps. but for some reason, everybody thinks that he came out and dominated everywhere like doohan did. that's just not true. rossi won races from pole and from the back of the grid. rossi sometimes walked away from everybody else and sometimes he won on the last corner (cough cough gibernau cough jerez).

i would argue that most people have a high opinion of rossi because he was able to do things like win from the back of the grid or a crappy start or overcome a time penalty; it's his ability to overcome adverse conditions and still win that people admire. i think it's this very reason that people aren't giving stoner any credit this season regardless of his record and form.

in any case, i really fail to see how anybody could argue that this season is any fun to watch. i mean, i'm open to hearing some specific reasons, but i haven't heard any good ones yet.


i could'nt agree more, people who think this season has been exciting are eh, nuts! Who in there right mind wants to watch racing similer to that of Formula 1, we want to see battles to the end!
Stoner is a .... hot rider but people would give him far more credit if he earnt his victories like he did in Catalunya, battling to the end..thats what everyone wants to see and so far we've only seen it a few times this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Aug 23 2007, 05:53 AM) [snapback]86509[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Absolutely Phorest, I'm with you on bringing back the 990s. And lets kill traction control. Bring back the days of Gary McCoy. Hell, bring back Gary McCoy just for the hell of it.

ditch tc bring back the 990's and scrap the new tyre rule. mich can do over night tyres at the euro rounds just like stones can at the asian rounds, if they cant then thats there problem

nahhh... alway's exciting. look were not gonna get a year like we had in 06 every season. or 2000 like pointed out above. ( i forgot how many different winners there were in 2000! 8! ) with the exception of ducati & bridgestone all were standin around with their pants around their ankles at the start of the season & are just now pullin em up. and also let's not forget that if it were'nt for stoner ducati would'nt be lookin so great either. so i say next season will be closer. perhaps even the rest of this season will be a bit closer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Aug 23 2007, 10:34 PM) [snapback]86570[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
ditch tc bring back the 990's and scrap the new tyre rule. .....


Then what would everyone say/(complain about) when Casey Stoner cleaned up there too!!

The 990 era was great for excitement, no question about it. I'm a little worried about the lack of excitement this year, however with it being the first year of the 800's, I think it might be a temporary issue. Stoner is obviously a cut above the rest this year but with motor racing it tends to be swings and roundabouts each year. If we give a bit of time for the rest to catch up it should be fine.

I actually think we've been spoiled a little by the 990 era. It was at the time the most exciting series on the planet by a long way, with regular battles for the lead. Great, but its at the point now where, to alot of people who started watching in that era, its not an exciting race unless theres a last lap scrap for the lead. While they are exciting, they are a rarity, and shouldn't be expected to happen week in week out in Grand Prix racing. The nature of having unequal bikes and million quid development means that there is, nine times out of ten, going to be a huge performance disparancy.

2002 was the first year of the 990s, and by my memory that was fairly dull, too. Rossi won 11 of the 16 races and Honda got the jump on the field, much in the same way Ducati has this year. But over time, the competition caught up and we got great racing again.

What made Vale different from Doohan and indeed Stoner was that Vale realised that a win by a bike lenghth is as important as a win by 10 seconds. Vale knows that by winning by a smaller margin, you don't have to take the same risks as the guy who wants to lap the entire field. How many great riders have chucked it away while miles in front by making a silly mistake when pushing?

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MigsAngel @ Aug 23 2007, 02:44 AM) [snapback]86553[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I NEVER want to see another 2006 season again having a midpack rider wins 1 races and accidently take a second race...to then title by due the misfortune of the greater riders (gorillas).

I hope you're just saying this to be controversial. If not: Hayden and Melandri both stomped their older more established teammates in 2005 (albeit Biaggi and Gibbernau had bad years), but the push they made over the last five races was something only the doctor could top.

In 2006 when Rossi had his first "off" year. Hayden stayed out of trouble and Melandri got mixed up in the fray. It's no stretch to say Hayden would have walked off with the championship after Laguna if Honda hadn't have played games with his clutch.

This year Hayden has had an abysmal season. He crashed out of three races and he couldn't find any pace until Assen. Since Assen, he has three podiums. That's more face time for the team and sponsors than Edwards, Melandri, and Hopkins have managed all season. Hayden does the little things right, that's why teams and sponsors keep giving him money and equipment.

And racing was better in the past b/c you couldn't sprint the entire race. I feel like a broken record Riders got into formation and preserved limb and equipment running at a "comfortable" 97%. The last 3% was preserved for overtaking or breaking opponents. There was no reason to win by 10-15 seconds b/c winning by 2-3 seconds is more pratical.

Now staying in a pack is more dangerous. If you have the pace, you're not going to fall off riding balls to the wall. With the 800s if you stay in a pack and you get passed, you're not sure if you'll find a spot to pass back. Worse, you could get punted off or forced off line. New electronics and improved cornering speeds mean clearing off is safer than in the past.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(muzzy57 @ Aug 23 2007, 03:06 AM) [snapback]86555[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
This is very true.... just a short history lesson here...

[attachmentid=2188][attachmentid=2189][attachmentid=2190][attachmentid=2191]

Where are the results all that different from now? ... I remember well that very few people regularly mixed it with Mick, & Vale's 2005 season was just incredible...

I guess that it depends on your definition of dominating... does that mean with wins or by beating the opposition by more than 10 seconds every time??



there's a HUGE problem with just posting race results and saying that there wasn't any exciting racing in those years.

think back to the golden years with schwantz and rainey. rainey has more wins and championships than schwantz, but the racing was exciting with these guys battling each other (and the other big names of those years) race after race after race. did rainey sometimes just take off with the yamaha leaving everybody in the dust? of course. but there was always the chance that schwantz would magically make up a huge deficit and win on the last lap/last corner.

the race results don't paint an accurate picture of whether the individual races of that particular season were exciting. the fact is that they were.

this year? yawn

Every year is good as far as I'm concerned! Wait till we start running out of oil and have to start using electric/solar powered bikes - then you'll know what boring is!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Aug 23 2007, 04:37 PM) [snapback]86595[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
This year Hayden has had an abysmal season. He crashed out of three races and he couldn't find any pace until Assen. Since Assen, he has three podiums. That's more face time for the team and sponsors than Edwards, Melandri, and Hopkins have managed all season. Hayden does the little things right, that's why teams and sponsors keep giving him money and equipment.


Hayden is having a normal year this year...normal for him anyway.

2003 - 2 podiums ends season in 5th
2004 - 2 podiums ends season in 8th
2005 - 6 podiums 1 win ends season in 3rd
2006 - 10 podiums 2 wins ends season in 1st (Lucky)
2007 - 3 podiums so far will win no race this year and will end season in 7th (a Normal year for the his average skills)

Let's say that everytime rules change, we face a season where the team that better managed the new rules dominates. Do you remember season 2002? Rossi won 10 races out of the first 12. This year Stoner won only 7 races out of the first 12. Maybe someone cuold say that we saw a better show in 2002 because Rossi didn't arrive in the first position at the first corner every race, but it was due to his bad attitude with starts he still has now. But it was clear at that time that his rythm was faster than any other rider and that the potential of his "package" was the best. On the contrary Stoner is very skilled with starts, then he doesn't need to pass several riders in order to gain the head of races.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(drumfu @ Aug 24 2007, 05:00 PM) [snapback]86628[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
there's a HUGE problem with just posting race results and saying that there wasn't any exciting racing in those years.

think back to the golden years with schwantz and rainey. rainey has more wins and championships than schwantz, but the racing was exciting with these guys battling each other (and the other big names of those years) race after race after race. did rainey sometimes just take off with the yamaha leaving everybody in the dust? of course. but there was always the chance that schwantz would magically make up a huge deficit and win on the last lap/last corner.

the race results don't paint an accurate picture of whether the individual races of that particular season were exciting. the fact is that they were.

this year? yawn


Errr, I don't see where I said that the racing wasn't exciting back in those years mentioned???

What I thought we were talking about, was the domination of the series by one rider impacting on the overall excitement of the series? Which is why I made the comment about whether it was the number of wins or the type of wins that make a rider "dominant"...

The point I was making by listing the results was to give an indication that yes, while one rider can win a lot of the races it doesn't necessarily make for poor viewing.

And Schwantzie was always entertaining... whether he was winning or crashing!

Just out of curiousity & given all the discussion about how boring the races are this year, I'm going to do a little statistical analysis between the first year of the 990cc MotoGP (2002) & this year to see how the race winning margins to 2nd & 3rd places compare.

Watch this space...

Also, we have to keep in mind that racing is not just about the guys or guy in this year case are doing. There is damned fine exciting racing going on from positions 5 to 11.

Look at Ant West at Laguna, I was out my seat everytime they showed him make a pass at the last turn...I kept thinking he was going to drop it....bloody exciting to me!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(basspete @ Aug 24 2007, 01:10 AM) [snapback]86591[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
How many great riders have chucked it away while miles in front by making a silly mistake when pushing?

Pete


To be honest I can't remember! I think that the last one that comes to mind for me was when Doohan was leading a GP at Phillip Island by some huge margin & lost the front going into turn 1... ....!