marlboro....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 28 2009, 06:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>MikeM - I don't care what doctor diagnosed CS in this issue, I really don't care what he has, or doesn't have, I even don't care what he tells, or doesn't tell Ducati/Marlboro. But I cannot understand why Casey (and/or his peeps) didn't just make a press release saying he had mononucleosis (or some other such .... - I don't care if its a lie) and that he will race when and if he can... PR and optics problem solved... its so freakin' easy people!!

To me, there is no way that he or anyone on his behalf should have then or now released any concocted story that cannot or could not be backed up by medical diagnosis and that is should he have chosen to release anything at all.

For mine, to hypothetically lie outright is far worse than anything else that could have occurred and would do irrepairable harm to his present and future prospects as he could not be trusted at any time given what would then be the history. Instead, by remaining quiet he has (theoretically to some) maintained a dignified silence and has not contributed to teh speculation by making unfounded or blatantly worng commentary about his situation (unlike many it would seem and that is not referring to forum posters who can speculate as they wish).

Basically, the risks of an outright lie being found out, far outweigh any short term benefit (but it is an interesting point you raise)





Gaz

I guess I should state my bias (ha, now after ranting for a while...)... I spent half my working life in marketing and advertising!! I've seen many a reasonable and plausible explanation work positively to gain time and perspective. It placates the masses while you get on with your business. At a later and more appropriate time you could then retract, say an error was made, or that you yourself were misinformed and release the whatever version of the truth you wish.

Gaz, you don't believe that every comment and/or press release you hear from public figures, do you? Misinformation and spin is an integral part of the game.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 28 2009, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gaz, you don't believe that every comment and/or press release you hear from public figures, do you? Misinformation and spin is an integral part of the game.

Not likely.

I have had a large amount of exposure to many marketing gurus due to previous work roles so basically I look at what gets said and pick to pieces as somewhere in there will lay the message that they want to get across, but with their own slant.

But as to the context of this discussion, misinformation and spin by Stoner would do far more harm than good in the long term as in sport (as with life) many past misdemeanours will come back to haunt at one time or other.

But, I do see your point and have for a while, the use of the words 'mystery illness' leaves so much open to interpretation which of course than comes with our own bias as to how we interpret but for mine, being CS he is pretty much in a 'no win' situation no matter what he was to do (in that regard).





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 28 2009, 07:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess I should state my bias (ha, now after ranting for a while...)... I spent half my working life in marketing and advertising!! I've seen many a reasonable and plausible explanation work positively to gain time and perspective. It placates the masses while you get on with your business. At a later and more appropriate time you could then retract, say an error was made, or that you yourself were misinformed and release the whatever version of the truth you wish.

Gaz, you don't believe that every comment and/or press release you hear from public figures, do you? Misinformation and spin is an integral part of the game.

I think you, I and gaz basically agree that the public relations aspect of all this has been poorly handled, and that whatever else he might be casey is an excellent rider who is exciting to watch wringing the neck of the ducati and would add considerable interest if he returned in something like 2007 shape, so perhaps we should stop arguing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lad @ Sep 28 2009, 03:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not attacking Marlboro...are you saying they don't sell cancer?
yes they do, but people like you choose now to mention it. there was no mention when stoner was on a high and there has been plenty of threads where i was in the minority in criticizing tobacco sponsorship. Marlboro say something negative about stoner so you attack there product and employees. stoner romps home with a championship and your all walking about with marlboro shirts and caps on. double standards with some of you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 28 2009, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think you, I and gaz basically agree that the public relations aspect of all this has been poorly handled, and that whatever else he might be casey is an excellent rider who is exciting to watch wringing the neck of the ducati and would add considerable interest if he returned in something like 2007 shape, so perhaps we should stop arguing.
Yeah dad, but I was havin' fun being Satan's solicitor... Its good for me to get the opinions of other intelligent, rational people... otherwise I might think I know it all!!! Oh yeah and in Thailand intelligent, rational conversations are hard to find... most expats want to talk about bar girls or booze, or their massively uninteresting lives...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Sep 28 2009, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes they do, but people like you choose now to mention it. there was no mention when stoner was on a high and there has been plenty of threads where i was in the minority in criticizing tobacco sponsorship. Marlboro say something negative about stoner so you attack there product and employees. stoner romps home with a championship and your all walking about with marlboro shirts and caps on. double standards with some of you.
Not me... I puff two plus packs a day (how can I not... about $18US for TEN PACKS of Marlboro reds ($15US for L & Ms)!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 28 2009, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah dad, but I was havin' fun being Satan's solicitor... Its good for me to get the opinions of other intelligent, rational people... otherwise I might think I know it all!!! Oh yeah and in Thailand intelligent, rational conversations are hard to find... most expats want to talk about bar girls or booze, or their massively uninteresting lives...


Are you sure they are girls or are they 'girls'




Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Sep 28 2009, 10:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes they do, but people like you choose now to mention it. there was no mention when stoner was on a high and there has been plenty of threads where i was in the minority in criticizing tobacco sponsorship. Marlboro say something negative about stoner so you attack there product and employees. stoner romps home with a championship and your all walking about with marlboro shirts and caps on. double standards with some of you.
You are of course correct, but it is pushing it for a marlboro guy to start moralising.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lad @ Sep 27 2009, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not attacking Marlboro...are you saying they don't sell cancer?

Of course Marlboro sells cancer (it is a bad thing), but they sold it before Stoner even existed… Did not they? Why all the sudden 'really bad' Company crap in regards to Stoner health and 'Mistery' illness? 'Mistery'? With today's medical technology? Come on! Now it will be like: 'Mysteriously' it cured itself!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 27 2009, 09:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Quite possibly if the other doctors were all surgeons with a narrow field of specialisation and he doesn't have a surgical problem. What is your diagnosis regarding his reported anaemia anyway?; I haven't seen any explanation from any of the doctors to whom you refer as to why he had this.

'Specialized' Doctors! 'Minor' Anemia! And it is not 'my' report really. In fact, I still don't see any 'Report', just a 'Mystery' illness!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 27 2009, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's the rub, no? I haven't heard anything FROM ANY MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL that vaguely smells like a credible diagnosis... M - I don't think you and I will ever agree on this, but I bet we both agree that we're dying to see Casey back on the racetrack and performing up too his full potential!

Agreed!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 27 2009, 11:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree casey's perhaps truculent attitude to the media and public relations has not helped his career, and as mylexicon says people like him and mladin do have a duty at least to the fans. However if ducati remains ducati marlboro in the unlikely event they do manage to buy valentino it will doubtless be very effective from an advertising point of view but they may find him not all that keen on corporate functions either, particularly for a cigarette company.

It is not that Marlboro wants Stoner 'smoking' on the podium! They just want their ads (Bike, Suit, etc.) shown in TV. That's what they paid for… As much as Playboy promotes ....! Or Red Bull promoting addictive non healthy products too! So Marlboro are right to be disappointed. And then there is the most important disappointed 'fans' factor to this matter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 27 2009, 11:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Or am I just off on a planet again?

Off the Planet bro! (Just joking).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 28 2009, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It has been a while V, and well, I had to.

The essence of what you say is true, nobody forces us to use the products of the sponsors and certainly nobody has put a gun to my head to use any products of any sponsors. In short, this means that if I buy a few magazines, or use respol that if they upset me, my rider or my circumstances change then I can stop buying them and use other products.

But, cigarettes are addictive by the fact they have nicotine in them, and have also been linked to many insidious illnesses and/or diseases, all of which place a massive burden on teh public purse and the lives of people concerned.

Certainly nobody forces one to use a product, but for many, advertising by sponsorship is to create 'brand awareness' with the intent of getting people to use your product, which does not mean 'new' users but can readily mean existing. So, Marlboro advertise hoping people use their products, whether that be existing smokers or new, they simply do not care.

But that 'Sponsoring' unhealthy products was there before this 'Mistery' illness and even Stoner existed. So it is another matter completely, in which I agree, they should not advertise 'addictive & unhealthy' products. Again, this of course gets rid of 'Red Bull' too!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 28 2009, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I actually don't see people attacking Marlboro for the purpose of making Stoner look good within the context of this discussion.

After no medical reports, Sponsors claim an apology. We are discussing on a thread all over this, and you do not see people attacking Marlboro for the sake of it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 28 2009, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I do see is people showing their own feelings and questioning the hypocrisy of Marlboro given their products and also the amount of 'free' brand awareness provided by Stoner from 2007 until the present day, as even now Marlboro are still mentioned in the articles regarding the situation

Whether a person is a public figure or not - do we have the rights to delve into their private lives and/or health?

We don’t. But as the boss who pays the bills? Come on Gaz! Of course there could be a privacy clause asked by Stoners representatives so if anything goes public they could sue Marlboro. But as the Article implies, they have got nothing and don’t know anything either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 28 2009, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As for the doctors (and correct me), but were not some orthapaedic surgeons which of course raises the question of what their training is in areas outside of their speciality etc.

But I actually think you answer part of your own concern by referencing Stoner consulting a doctor that 'may know Stoner better,' as if there is an underlying issue then that doctor would be most conversant with it, not some overseas doctor with a different speciality.
Alternately, we often hear of situations where people have taken ill overseas and been diagnosed with one illness, only to return to their home countries where doctors diagnose something completely different. Not saying that is the case here as one would expect that the level of medical professionals available to these guys could well be above that of joe public but it can and does happen.

I think this was why he kept seeing diverse ‘Doctors’ before going back home and all of the sudden… As if by magic… And with no Report… Go fishing! That’s it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 28 2009, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't disagree here but without knowing the full details one cannot be certain that things have not been handled as professionally as they should have been within the circumstances and that instead, we now have people speculating outside of the close circle who know what is happenning.

Gaz

That’s why a least Marlboro should be informed. And protect privacy if you may. If the Article read: “We are well aware of Stoner’s illness and recovered fitness”, don’t you think it would be another matter completely?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Sep 28 2009, 04:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes they do, but people like you choose now to mention it. there was no mention when stoner was on a high and there has been plenty of threads where i was in the minority in criticizing tobacco sponsorship. Marlboro say something negative about stoner so you attack there product and employees. stoner romps home with a championship and your all walking about with marlboro shirts and caps on. double standards with some of you.

Agreed completely!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 28 2009, 06:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are of course correct, but it is pushing it for a marlboro guy to start moralising.

Marlboro may have said things like this in the past… about ‘morals’, but we would not be arguing about them. Yet somehow now we are in relation to Stoner’s health issue.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Sep 28 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yes they do, but people like you choose now to mention it. there was no mention when stoner was on a high and there has been plenty of threads where i was in the minority in criticizing tobacco sponsorship. Marlboro say something negative about stoner so you attack there product and employees. stoner romps home with a championship and your all walking about with marlboro shirts and caps on. double standards with some of you.

Go and read the thread again as my comment about cancer was in response to Mick D talking about rebuilding trust with Marlboro for ..... sake - trust with Marlboro - I don't expect "people like you" to comprehend the irony.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>'Specialized' Doctors! 'Minor' Anemia! And it is not 'my' report really. In fact, I still don't see any 'Report', just a 'Mystery' illness!
Talk is cheap on the internet, and any argument made by anyone should be judged on its merits rather than by claims to expertise its proponent may have, but the only official statement I have seen regarding stoner's health (with ducati I think cited as one source) is that he had gastritis and mild anaemia. Marlboro man and curve among others consider to him to have a stomach ache due to nervous anxiety, and I will leave that aside although it has been discovered perhaps ironically by australian doctors that a bacterial infection is commonly the cause of gastritis, but I would be interested in your views on psychogenic anaemia as this could be potentially scientifically ground breaking, the issue being not whether the anaemia is mild but rather why a 23 year old elite athlete is anaemic at all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>After no medical reports,

Gee how do you figure that!!??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 28 2009, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Talk is cheap on the internet, and any argument made by anyone should be judged on its merits rather than by claims to expertise its proponent may have, but the only official statement I have seen regarding stoner's health (with ducati I think cited as one source) is that he had gastritis and mild anaemia. Marlboro man and curve among others consider to him to have a stomach ache due to nervous anxiety, and I will leave that aside although it has been discovered perhaps ironically by australian doctors that a bacterial infection is commonly the cause of gastritis, but I would be interested in your views on psychogenic anaemia as this could be potentially scientifically ground breaking…

I have no clue about medicine really, you got me there. But if privacy is the concern, and being a public figure, why not redact a ‘Privacy Clause’ towards Marlboro and explain your work absence to them!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 28 2009, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the issue being not whether the anaemia is mild but rather why a 23 year old elite athlete is anaemic at all.

Yeah, the question pops up no doubt… Where is the answer mate?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Sep 28 2009, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gee how do you figure that!!??

There’s no official explanation. Unless you can link to it please!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, the question pops up no doubt… Where is the answer mate?
I will come off my high horse, particularly since it seems likely you can argue cogently in multiple languages when I (possibly) can do so only in one.

My point is that if he has anaemia on an objective laboratory test there is indisputably something medically wrong with him. It could be argued that even mild anaemia is detrimental to elite athletic performance; endurance athletes do not commonly risk their careers and health by using illicit means such as epo related drugs and blood doping to boost their red blood cell counts to supra-physiological levels for no reason, but even apart from this if he is anaemic on a western diet it is not due to any action of his unless he has been anorexic for several years, and a form of anaemia is well described to be associated with chronic illness/inflammatory processes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lad @ Sep 28 2009, 02:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not attacking Marlboro...are you saying they don't sell cancer?
Isn't it a personal choice for someone to smoke tobacco which has been around long before any of the tobacco companies? If people smoke to much it's their own fault. If you drink to much water you can die. Should we be getting pissed at the water companies?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 28 2009, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you sure they are girls or are they 'girls'
Gaz
Any flavour you want, mate...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 28 2009, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...curve among others consider to him to have a stomach ache due to nervous anxiety..
Nooo, I think Curvey said he had a "sore ....."... oh, maybe he was talkin' about Adrianna...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 28 2009, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My point is that if he has anaemia on an objective laboratory test there is indisputably something medically wrong with him.
So anaemia is his "plausible explanation" rather than mono...

Better late than never!

I don't know who Stoner has as a PR rep. (if anyone) but the ball has been dropped. I'm not too concerned with the silence regarding his illness, that's his business and he has his right to keep that confidential. I, for one, find it a bit refreshing that he's just kept his mouth shut, not blabbering on about how sick he's been and how better he's feeling. Those statements always sound so contrived and full of ..... And Mick, I can see your theory on syaing anything to keep the masses distracted but misleading the masses for too long will eventually catch up with him. He says that now and in the future fans and sponsors will never know if a minor injury is really so minor or vice versa. What I do find troubling, is that all the responses regarding Stoner's comeback are from Suppo and Ducati. I can understand the philosophy of not giving credence to rumors that may not have any substance, but when you miss three months, rumors like those need to be addressed.