marlboro....

Curvey you're one hilariously sick mofo...

Michael, if Casey comes back and is immediately on the pace, it will prove the rest period helped. I for one won't be convinced he's 100% fit until he completes the '10 season "illness" free, and I have the feeling I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Ultimately neither camp (Stoner/His Handlers nor Ducati/Marlboro) has handled this mystery illness issue well but, where I can understand Ducati/Marlboro's ham-fisted decisions, I just cannot fathom the covertness of Stoner/Handlers. My hang-up...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 27 2009, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Curvey you're one hilariously sick mofo...

Michael, if Casey comes back and is immediately on the pace, it will prove the rest period helped. I for one won't be convinced he's 100% fit until he completes the '10 season "illness" free, and I have the feeling I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Ultimately neither camp (Stoner/His Handlers nor Ducati/Marlboro) has handled this mystery illness issue well but, where I can understand Ducati/Marlboro's ham-fisted decisions, I just cannot fathom the covertness of Stoner/Handlers. My hang-up...




...he tossed in the towel, so whatever he does the rest of the season means crap really short of taking out one of the 2 Yams.... shame really.. cause even with an upset tummy he could have made up alot points off all the crashes of the top 3 riders...

Stoner should retire and go ride world supers; same thing for Hayden. MotoGP is turning into F1 complete with tiny grids, financial politics, and type A pit vipers who keep dumping money into the sport so they can exert control over the marketable personalities.

They need to cut costs in GP so the teams aren't required to answer to the sponsors. Ducati need to the ability to send Marlboro packing so they can focus on the ontrack activities. Given the current investment required to field a competitive 800cc team, I doubt anyone will be dismissing bad sponsors anytime soon.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 27 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner should retire and go ride world supers; same thing for Hayden. MotoGP is turning into F1 complete with tiny grids, financial politics, and type A pit vipers who keep dumping money into the sport so they can exert control over the marketable personalities.

They need to cut costs in GP so the teams aren't required to answer to the sponsors. Ducati need to the ability to send Marlboro packing so they can focus on the ontrack activities. Given the current investment required to field a competitive 800cc team, I doubt anyone will be dismissing bad sponsors anytime soon.
Absolutely. This sport has gone in only a few years from being one of the purest forms of competition engaged in by human beings to a cigarette advertising guy calling the shots at and apparently providing medical advice to a major team. Interestingly blaming yourself (or your health anyway) rather than your bike or team for relative lack of success is apparently unprofessional, whilst trashing your team and long term tyre supplier to the extent that the latter is eventually driven from the sport is not.

The problem for such marketing people is that valentino rossis are in fairly short supply, with perhaps barry sheene who competed before I closely followed the sport being the last close parallel in combining riding ability with charisma/marketing appeal. Many of the riders previously regarded as greats would probably have been a disaster in terms of modern marketing practice.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Sep 27 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>


...he tossed in the towel, so whatever he does the rest of the season means crap really short of taking out one of the 2 Yams.... shame really.. cause even with an upset tummy he could have made up alot points off all the crashes of the top 3 riders...
Pithy and amusing as usual and even I have to admit casey is currently providing his supporters little ammunition with which to return fire.

On a point of logic though I presume you would have been happy for him to take out one or more yamahas whilst continuing to compete when he and his physician considered him unfit to ride, particularly since he apparently had the single lap pace to be with the factory yamahas initially but not the endurance to stay with them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Absolutely. This sport has gone in only a few years from being one of the purest forms of competition engaged in by human beings to a cigarette advertising guy calling the shots at and apparently providing medical advice to a major team.

The problem for such people is that valentino rossis are in fairly short supply, with perhaps barry sheene who competed before I closely followed the sport being the last close parallel in combining riding ability with charisma/marketing appeal. Many of the riders previously regarded as greats would probably have been a disaster in terms of modern marketing practice.

For the longest time I have been scornful of riders who've refused to be multi-dimensional athletes who were capable of handling the riding and the business side of the sport. Stoner and Mladin are two who come to mind. JPM would be a good example when he used to drive F1.

However, this situation is starting to make me lean the other direction. The riders are doing less and less appearances for the fans, and they are spending more and more time glad-handing friends of the sponsors, manufacturer, venue owner, governing body, state government, etc.

I don't see any value added in those appearances. The companies who pay Ducati's bills are simply parading the riders around to satisfy corporate vanity. The riders are kind of like 21st century gladiators rather than sports personalities. They spend a good portion of their time placating the people who put them in the sport. Kinda creepy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 27 2009, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As the ones who pay the cheques the Marlboro boys have a point. I have said all along that Casey's reputation amongst potential employers (if not fans) has been hurt by his camp's handling (or lack thereof) of the media and stakeholders during this period of (unknown) illness. He's gonna have to exceed his previous expectations upon his return to rebuild trust.

You've got a good point here Mick - trust is a big thing when you sell cancer for a living.

Lets hope Casey can't restore said "trust" and has to leave the Marlboro squad in disgrace as clearly Ducati would be much better off without him

This is pure crap of excuses… Does anyone have to buy a .... Magazine just because Playboy Sponsors a Team? Does anyone have to use their petrol and oil just because Repsol Sponsors a Team? Give me a bloody break, I am sure nobody put a gun to anybodies head to smoke, of course it is not a healthy product, nor is alcohol, or half the crap we eat. Do we have a choice… Yes. Do we decide what to do… Yes.

Some people are attacking Marlboro in order to make Stoner not look so bad, if he hadn't done anything wrong, we would not be calling it on Marlboro. After all they pour a lot of money into the Sport.

I say Bull S... Public figures earn accordingly to fame, but it means precisely that: 'Public Figures', quite simple. So if half a dozen recognized Doctors from different Countries saw Stoner and diagnosed nothing serious. We are supposed to believe somehow his local Med has more knowledge? He may know Stoner better, but even that does not prove anything, no diagnose, no reports, nothing. Just a fishing tour.

Make as many excuses as you wish, and I could not give a damn about Marlboro (I don't smoke thank goodness). The whole thing is so unprofessional it is disgustingly silly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is pure crap of excuses… Does anyone have to buy a .... Magazine just because Playboy Sponsors a Team? Does anyone have to use their petrol and oil just because Repsol Sponsors a Team? Give me a bloody break, I am sure nobody put a gun to anybodies head to smoke, of course it is not a healthy product, nor is alcohol, or half the crap we eat. Do we have a choice… Yes. Do we decide what to do… Yes.

Some people are attacking Marlboro in order to make Stoner not look so bad, if he hadn't done anything wrong, we would not be calling it on Marlboro. After all they pour a lot of money into the Sport.

I say Bull S... Public figures earn accordingly to fame, but it means precisely that: 'Public Figures', quite simple. So if half a dozen recognized Doctors from different Countries saw Stoner and diagnosed nothing serious. We are supposed to believe somehow his local Med has more knowledge? He may know Stoner better, but even that does not prove anything, no diagnose, no reports, nothing. Just a fishing tour.

Make as many excuses as you wish, and I could not give a damn about Marlboro (I don't smoke thank goodness). The whole thing is so unprofessional it is disgustingly silly.

I'm not attacking Marlboro...are you saying they don't sell cancer?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So if half a dozen recognized Doctors from different Countries saw Stoner and diagnosed nothing serious. We are supposed to believe somehow his local Med has more knowledge?
Quite possibly if the other doctors were all surgeons with a narrow field of specialisation and he doesn't have a surgical problem. What is your diagnosis regarding his reported anaemia anyway?; I haven't seen any explanation from any of the doctors to whom you refer as to why he had this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 28 2009, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What is your diagnosis regarding his reported anaemia anyway?; I haven't seen any explanation from any of the doctors to whom you refer as to why he had this.
That's the rub, no? I haven't heard anything FROM ANY MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL that vaguely smells like a credible diagnosis... M - I don't think you and I will ever agree on this, but I bet we both agree that we're dying to see Casey back on the racetrack and performing up too his full potential!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 28 2009, 03:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's the rub, no? I haven't heard anything FROM ANY MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL that vaguely smells like a credible diagnosis... M - I don't think you and I will ever agree on this, but I bet we both agree that we're dying to see Casey back on the racetrack and performing up too his full potential!
Sure, but from my point of view even for a public figure there should still be a right to doctor/patient confidentiality, and for such public figures to be restricted to doctors approved by their employers would also be a worrying development.

I agree casey's perhaps truculent attitude to the media and public relations has not helped his career, and as mylexicon says people like him and mladin do have a duty at least to the fans. However if ducati remains ducati marlboro in the unlikely event they do manage to buy valentino it will doubtless be very effective from an advertising point of view but they may find him not all that keen on corporate functions either, particularly for a cigarette company.

Like you I would like to see casey back and firing, but I have my doubts, particularly as at this late stage it does not appear to have been definitely confirmed that he is even racing at estoril.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Parc Ferme @ Sep 27 2009, 02:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He's not asking him to apologize for getting sick. He's asking him to apologize for the way it was handled. Essentially, less than a week before the GP, Stoner told everyone involved he was gone for 3 months. It was not a team decision, it was a not a group decision. Nothing was discussed with anyone. I seriously doubt anybody here would have a job if you just said to your boss, "I'm taking 3 months off, end of discussion."


Why not feed the masses.

I work in a place whereby exactly that happened, only for 7 months and then the person refused to come back into our team having claimed 'intimidation' and 'bullying' was the casue for here 'injuries'.

Fact is, she called in sick our boss had gotten somewhat fedup and asked her to produce a doctors certificate, the woman refused then claimed stress and contacted Human Resources to claim workers compensation. HR investigated and found in our favour (ie. the person was not bullied etc) but still allowed her to be off work on full pay due to her 'concerns'.

Only when the organisation advised that they woudl be reducing her payments did she suddenly feel fit enough to return to work, albeit elsewhere in the organisation.

She was not the first within that organisation, nor the last but it can and does happen and generally for reasons that those left behind never learn of.





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 27 2009, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>.... people he IS NOT a ciggy company exec. He is a marketing expert specializing in motorsports. He IS NOT "worried about [Stoner's] health", he is worried about an asset and that asset's handling of his "illness" which has been controversial and potentially damaging to himself and his benefactors, AND HE IS RIGHT. If CS was my employee, no matter his competency and/or expertise, red flags would be waving all over his HR dossier.

Interesting take, and to be fair one that I tend to agree with to a degree.

In essence the Marlboro dude is being totally selfish and concerning himself solely with the wellbeing of his employers - is that correct?

He then criticises Stoner, by way of demanding an apology for Stoners absence for, wait for it, Stoners selfishness for not taking into consideration others and being solely concerned with his own well being.

So, he wants an apology for Stoner doing no worse than what he himself has done?

Or am I just off on a planet again?





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Sep 28 2009, 03:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner should retire and go ride world supers; same thing for Hayden. MotoGP is turning into F1 complete with tiny grids, financial politics, and type A pit vipers who keep dumping money into the sport so they can exert control over the marketable personalities.

They need to cut costs in GP so the teams aren't required to answer to the sponsors. Ducati need to the ability to send Marlboro packing so they can focus on the ontrack activities. Given the current investment required to field a competitive 800cc team, I doubt anyone will be dismissing bad sponsors anytime soon.
Interesting points. MotoGP is progressing towards the F1 model.

It has been a while V, and well, I had to.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is pure crap of excuses… Does anyone have to buy a .... Magazine just because Playboy Sponsors a Team? Does anyone have to use their petrol and oil just because Repsol Sponsors a Team? Give me a bloody break, I am sure nobody put a gun to anybodies head to smoke, of course it is not a healthy product, nor is alcohol, or half the crap we eat. Do we have a choice… Yes. Do we decide what to do… Yes.

The essence of what you say is true, nobody forces us to use the products of the sponsors and certainly nobody has put a gun to my head to use any products of any sponsors. In short, this means that if I buy a few magazines, or use respol that if they upset me, my rider or my circumstances change then I can stop buying them and use other products.

But, cigarettes are addictive by the fact they have nicotine in them, and have also been linked to many insidious illnesses and/or diseases, all of which place a massive burden on teh public purse and the lives of people concerned.

Certainly nobody forces one to use a product, but for many, advertising by sponsorship is to create 'brand awareness' with the intent of getting people to use your product, which does not mean 'new' users but can readily mean existing. So, Marlboro advertise hoping people use their products, whether that be existing smokers or new, they simply do not care.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Some people are attacking Marlboro in order to make Stoner not look so bad, if he hadn't done anything wrong, we would not be calling it on Marlboro. After all they pour a lot of money into the Sport.

I actually don't see people attacking Marlboro for the purpose of making Stoner look good within the context of this discussion.

What I do see is people showing their own feelings and questioning the hypocrisy of Marlboro given their products and also the amount of 'free' brand awareness provided by Stoner from 2007 until the present day, as even now Marlboro are still mentioned in the articles regarding the situation


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I say Bull S... Public figures earn accordingly to fame, but it means precisely that: 'Public Figures', quite simple. So if half a dozen recognized Doctors from different Countries saw Stoner and diagnosed nothing serious. We are supposed to believe somehow his local Med has more knowledge? He may know Stoner better, but even that does not prove anything, no diagnose, no reports, nothing. Just a fishing tour.

Whether a person is a public figure or not - do we have the rights to delve into their private lives and/or health?

As for the doctors (and correct me), but were not some orthapaedic surgeons which of course raises the question of what their training is in areas outside of their speciality etc.

But I actually think you answer part of your own concern by referencing Stoner consulting a doctor that 'may know Stoner better,' as if there is an underlying issue then that doctor would be most conversant with it, not some overseas doctor with a different speciality.
Alternately, we often hear of situations where people have taken ill overseas and been diagnosed with one illness, only to return to their home countries where doctors diagnose something completely different. Not saying that is the case here as one would expect that the level of medical professionals available to these guys could well be above that of joe public but it can and does happen.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Sep 28 2009, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Make as many excuses as you wish, and I could not give a damn about Marlboro (I don't smoke thank goodness). The whole thing is so unprofessional it is disgustingly silly.

Don't disagree here but without knowing the full details one cannot be certain that things have not been handled as professionally as they should have been within the circumstances and that instead, we now have people speculating outside of the close circle who know what is happenning.



Baton passed.






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 27 2009, 06:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Finally, as for chasing Jorge, having a Plan B is a prudent business decision. Few (other than Rossi himself) have found fault with Yamaha's Plan Bs (Jorge & Spies) even though they employ the GOAT.
Yes, I was referring to that point, specifically.

Chasing Jorge is not a problem, but offering him <u>3 or 4</u> times Casey's existing salary is a bit much, don't you think?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 27 2009, 06:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>RCV, did you read the linked article? I quote - "Ducati have publicly expressed their support for Stoner, professing their understanding of his situation, and doing their best to suppress any impression of dissent within their ranks..." The public distain came from a certain principle within the Ducati team...
Firstly, when you entered [Ducati] in parenthesis, you misquoted me. Rather strangely, should I add. I made no mention of Ducati throughout my post. I was referring to Malboro quite clearly throughout!

Secondly, it was the Malboro dude who was expressing his disdain for Casey in such a public manner. No-one from Ducati did so - see the article.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 28 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting take, and to be fair one that I tend to agree with to a degree.

In essence the Marlboro dude is being totally selfish and concerning himself solely with the wellbeing of his employers - is that correct?

He then criticises Stoner, by way of demanding an apology for Stoners absence for, wait for it, Stoners selfishness for not taking into consideration others and being solely concerned with his own well being.

So, he wants an apology for Stoner doing no worse than what he himself has done?

Or am I just off on a planet again?

Gaz
Not off the planet Gaz!! The apology thing is over the top, but I get where he is coming from employer-wise.

MikeM - I don't care what doctor diagnosed CS in this issue, I really don't care what he has, or doesn't have, I even don't care what he tells, or doesn't tell Ducati/Marlboro. But I cannot understand why Casey (and/or his peeps) didn't just make a press release saying he had mononucleosis (or some other such .... - I don't care if its a lie) and that he will race when and if he can... PR and optics problem solved... its so freakin' easy people!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Sep 28 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Chasing Jorge is not a problem, but offering him <u>3 or 4</u> times Casey's existing salary is a bit much, don't you think?
Not at all it happens in every sport (even those weird ball or ball & stick games! ). Jorge's just done his first non-rookie deal and has been rewarded for his results - ultimately by Yamaha. Stoners first non-rookie deal was with Duc and he signed a three year deal (his mistake but it probably seemed a dream at the time - even he wasn't predicting his stellar '07 season!! - based on his results. Do you really believe come contract time 2010 that Casey and Jorge won't command about the same salary, depending on their manager's negotiating skills? Ducati/Marlboro's offer may seem outrageous now but come 2010 you'll see the big four (CS, JL, VR, DP) all being offered similar deals to the one Jorge was offered (OK maybe not long-term for Vale, he is getting a little long in the tooth, but he'll get the best 1 or 2 year deal).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Sep 28 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly, when you entered [Ducati] in parenthesis, you misquoted me. Rather strangely, should I add. I made no mention of Ducati throughout my post. I was referring to Malboro quite clearly throughout!

Secondly, it was the Malboro dude who was expressing his disdain for Casey in such a public manner. No-one from Ducati did so - see the article.
Dude, I already apologized for this when someone else pointed it out... blood from a stone? My first born... anything else you're lookin' for?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Sep 28 2009, 06:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>MikeM - I don't care what doctor diagnosed CS in this issue, I really don't care what he has, or doesn't have, I even don't care what he tells, or doesn't tell Ducati/Marlboro. But I cannot understand why Casey (and/or his peeps) didn't just make a press release saying he had mononucleosis (or some other such .... - I don't care if its a lie) and that he will race when and if he can... PR and optics problem solved... its so freakin' easy people!!
You are obviously correct that the whole thing is a public relations disaster, my disagreement is that it is not all down to casey, and marlboro man (at least) deserves blame. It is all speculative as casey has at least been professional enough to not criticise ducati or marlboro publicly, but he may well be pissed off that they ignored his concerns after he busted a gut winning 18 races for them perhaps by riding beyond normal human limits if the performance of others on the bike is any guide.
As for him telling deliberate lies to justify himself, this would not by my judgement appear to be part of his character, whatever his other faults.