Making the case for Marquez

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povol said:
This is the 10th year n Rossi’career where riders have been on equal rubber and Rossi’s numbers n that timeframe are pretty unextraordinary and 6 of his titles came with a tire advantage. Actually all 7 did because 09 he had a huge data advantage on the Bridgestones. Once that last advantage dried up he has 12 wins and 0 titles in 9 1/2 seasons which actually puts him in comparison to Dovi, not Marc.
Click to expand...
You're right that MM has outperformed him, but he started as a 20 year old against a 34 year old Rossi.

Flip the script (a 20 year old Rossi against a 34 year old MM), and we'd have very different numbers.

He's outperformed Dani and been neck to neck with Lorenzo in the post-SNS era (again, being many years older than both of them).

Marc is an extraordinary talent, but it's too early to make the case for GOAT. He may very well achieve this.
 
RCV600RR said:
You're right that MM has outperformed him, but he started as a 20 year old against a 34 year old Rossi.

Flip the script (a 20 year old Rossi against a 34 year old MM), and we'd have very different numbers.

He's outperformed Dani and been neck to neck with Lorenzo in the post-SNS era (again, being many years older than both of them).

Marc is an extraordinary talent, but it's too early to make the case for GOAT. He may very well achieve this.
Click to expand...

I love Marquez, he's perhaps the most exciting rider to watch since Kevin Schwantz, only unlike Schwantz, he is racking up titles like no one's business.

That being said I can't say he is a GOAT at this point because it's still too early to do so based on numbers. Based on what he has achieved to date, I consider him to be a more successful rider than Casey Stoner. Personally I think he is more talented than Stoner was. There's too much he has done on the track that not even Stoner could duplicate from saves to having to compete against a much closer field --due to the technical changes that have been made in the sport-- than Stoner ever had to in his day.

I think we all know his goal is ten titles, the question is will he get there. Who knows. I do think he probably will tie Rossi at a minimum. But till he gets up there with his numbers, talent alone doesn't make a GOAT.
 
There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard. :rolleyes:
 
As exciting as he is and as much as I admire his skill on a motorcycle, he is crashing too much for GOAT status. It is unfortunate that his sometimes reckless on track behavior puts other riders at risk, not just himself. Until this is addressed, he is not a contender imo.
 
J4rn0 said:
There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

The SNS were made off of data given to them by Burgess and had the stiff side construction that Rossi preferred . The tires Elias used to beat Rossi were given to him because Pedrosa couldn’t use them that weekend. It was a one time occurrence and like magic, Elias won the only GP race of his career. There were 4-5 teams that got the SNS but make no mistake, every crew chief didn’t get to order what his rider preferred. Even though they didn’t get to special order, the SNS were far superior to the .... that came out of the back of the truck. Those tires according to some riders could be months old leftovers from previous rounds. It was a huge advantage.
 
Bern1 said:
As exciting as he is and as much as I admire his skill on a motorcycle, he is crashing too much for GOAT status. It is unfortunate that his sometimes reckless on track behavior puts other riders at risk, not just himself. Until this is addressed, he is not a contender imo.
Click to expand...

The Willairot incident is a permanent black mark against him, although he was 18 at the time and should never have been sent out by his supposedly adult crew.

Him being dangerous as a motogp rider is mostly Rossi propaganda imo, he hasn't injured anyone or even caused a dangerous accident in a race, and Rossi has in fact crashed him out twice (once as a result of deliberate malfeasance), as against him crashing Rossi out once from what was hardly a high speed torpedo, and in fact by Rossi's own recent argument post the Assen race Rossi shouldn't have contested that corner at Argentina against a much faster rider.

He lost any chance of the 2015 title by intemperate riding, but when he had a dominant bike in 2014 won as dominantly as any of the greats in their best seasons. Otherwise the way he has ridden may have been what was required for him to win in the current era with the current rules on the bike available to him, and his practice crashes which are mostly low sides at not very high speed may be the result of a deliberate tactic to explore the limits of the bike. In any case he has 4 titles from his first 5 years in the class, and is looking good for 5 out of 6, the same as Rossi but 1 year younger than Rossi was at that stage of his career.
 
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J4rn0 said:
There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I have always agreed with you that other than in 2002 the "advantages" Rossi had early career were what had previously accrued to the rider who had earned the status of top rider, and were similar to what Doohan had; I don't think it behoved Rossi fans to then bitterly complain about Stoner having a bike or tire advantage in 2007 however as many did.

The argument that he has only encountered MM in his bike racing dotage is reasonable, but then again the sensational early career statistics posted earlier in this thread were against main rivals in Max Biaggi and Sete Gibernau who were 8 and 7 years older than him and not very arguably not of the quality of say Jorge Lorenzo or Stoner, with Gibernau mostly not even on a factory bike; Mick Doohan managed to beat a younger Max for a title when he was 33 btw.

Imo the early poster who suggested 2009 was the best indicator of his stature has it right, ie he was better than a top 10 all time rider and winner of 5 titles himself in Jorge Lorenzo at a time both were close to their primes, but not totally dominant over him/dominant to the extent he was over the likes of Gibernau and Biaggi.
 
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JPSLotus said:
I love Marquez, he's perhaps the most exciting rider to watch since Kevin Schwantz, only unlike Schwantz, he is racking up titles like no one's business.

That being said I can't say he is a GOAT at this point because it's still too early to do so based on numbers. Based on what he has achieved to date, I consider him to be a more successful rider than Casey Stoner. Personally I think he is more talented than Stoner was. There's too much he has done on the track that not even Stoner could duplicate from saves to having to compete against a much closer field --due to the technical changes that have been made in the sport-- than Stoner ever had to in his day.

I think we all know his goal is ten titles, the question is will he get there. Who knows. I do think he probably will tie Rossi at a minimum. But till he gets up there with his numbers, talent alone doesn't make a GOAT.
Click to expand...
I too think he is better than Stoner, or at least better over his entire period in MotoGP, it being hard to be better than Stoner was in 2007 and 2011, particularly the former season. I don't agree with the closer field/more even equipment argument though, which is true for 2011 and 2012 but not imo for the other 5 years of Stoner's premier class career given Stoner in those years was either riding a Ducati or for the lowliest and newest satellite team on the grid on remaindered Michelins.
 
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J4rn0 said:
There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Spot on.
 
Bern1 said:
As exciting as he is and as much as I admire his skill on a motorcycle, he is crashing too much for GOAT status. It is unfortunate that his sometimes reckless on track behavior puts other riders at risk, not just himself. Until this is addressed, he is not a contender imo.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, Bern. I think Marc's willingness to push a bike to the edge and beyond in the pursuit of wins gives him a greater claim to GOATery and enhances his GOATitude.
If he were just a crasher with the odd win then I would be on board with you, but I am afraid that that's just not the case mate.
 
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Bern1 said:
As exciting as he is and as much as I admire his skill on a motorcycle, he is crashing too much for GOAT status. It is unfortunate that his sometimes reckless on track behavior puts other riders at risk, not just himself. Until this is addressed, he is not a contender imo.
Click to expand...

I think the find the limit by crashing thing is why I still place Stoner as the GOAT, but Marc. Is a very close second atm.
 
J4rn0 said:
There are a few things that maybe some of the younger guys do not know (and some of the old guys conveniently keep forgetting).

SNS tires were given to both Honda and Yamaha and were available only at European races, that had Michelin factories suitably close. No SNS in Asia, Australia or America... Then the whole assumption that Michelin made SNS "for Rossi" is a silly myth developed in internet forums. Michelin's main customers were Honda and Yamaha and (also regarding SNS) they had to keep both of them happy, of course.

Especially Honda, one may say. When Rossi left Honda and moved to Yamaha, Honda would never have tolerated that Michelin favored Rossi (even assuming Michelin had a reason to do that). Let us not forget that "beating Valentino Rossi" was the mantra at HRC in those days. It had become that personal.

Honda had enough leverage to get SNS tires for Gresini's team as well, by the way. A famous example: Elias at Estoril 2006 was on SNS, on a mission to try and take points from Rossi. Speaking of 2006 in particular, Michelin was actually a negative factor in Rossi's championship, as he had an unusual number of tire problems. Including the obvious dud tire he got at Valencia.

This is to say that the only "unfair advantage" Rossi had over the competiition in his golden years was essentially that of being Valentino Rossi; just as nowadays there is no secret behind Marquez' performance other that he is... Marc Marquez.
Giving credit where credit is due shouldn't be that hard. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

That's a very good overview of the tire situation. I do feel that the primary drivers, as have been said, in bumping up Vale's win numbers are a mixture of the level of competition he was up against and also (and let's face it, there's no denying this), at the start of the 990 season there was no debate whatsoever that Vale was on the best bike- for several years.
Whilst we can debate 'the best bike on the grid' these days, it was a no contest for several years in the 990 era.
Having said that Vale's move to Yamaha validates him as one of the best of all time and it's impossible to realistically discount him from the GOAT discussion.
For me I try to think of the GOAT as if you got all your contenders, in their prime, on the same bike/tires then who would win?
 
povol said:
The SNS were made off of data given to them by Burgess and had the stiff side construction that Rossi preferred . The tires Elias used to beat Rossi were given to him because Pedrosa couldn’t use them that weekend. It was a one time occurrence and like magic, Elias won the only GP race of his career. There were 4-5 teams that got the SNS but make no mistake, every crew chief didn’t get to order what his rider preferred. Even though they didn’t get to special order, the SNS were far superior to the .... that came out of the back of the truck. Those tires according to some riders could be months old leftovers from previous rounds. It was a huge advantage.
Click to expand...

To say nothing of the selection factor. Stoner documented this in his bio, saying how Rossi and the bigger names, at a minimum, got the tires they requested, whereas less favoured riders got whatever mismatched crap Michelin threw at them. If Rossi demanded a specific tire, he got it. Other riders, could end up with a front that was biased on the left and a rear biased on the right.
 
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povol said:
The SNS were made off of data given to them by Burgess and had the stiff side construction that Rossi preferred . The tires Elias used to beat Rossi were given to him because Pedrosa couldn’t use them that weekend. It was a one time occurrence and like magic, Elias won the only GP race of his career. There were 4-5 teams that got the SNS but make no mistake, every crew chief didn’t get to order what his rider preferred. Even though they didn’t get to special order, the SNS were far superior to the .... that came out of the back of the truck. Those tires according to some riders could be months old leftovers from previous rounds. It was a huge advantage.
Click to expand...

That advantage was the same for, say, Gibernau, Pedrosa (then Hayden) and Rossi. The data for the SNS were given, as a policy, by the lead riders of Honda and Yamaha and Michelin had to keep everybody happy. At Estoril 2006, Elias won not simply because he had SNS, but because Rossi's tires didn't make the race. Rossi had a comfortable margin until his tires gave in, while Elias' tires lasted to the last lap. Had Rossi's tires lasted as well, there was no story. Of course that was a case in which maybe Rossi didn't manage his tires perfectly; but SNS were not enough of a factor to fill the gap between an Elias and a Rossi, -- if that's what you are trying to say. :rolleyes:
 
michaelm said:
I have always agreed with you that other than in 2002 the "advantages" Rossi had early career were what had previously accrued to the rider who had earned the status of top rider, and were similar to what Doohan had; I don't think it behoved Rossi fans to then bitterly complain about Stoner having a bike or tire advantage in 2007 however as many did.

The argument that he has only encountered MM in his bike racing dotage is reasonable, but then again the sensational early career statistics posted earlier in this thread were against main rivals in Max Biaggi and Sete Gibernau who were 8 and 7 years older than him and not very arguably not of the quality of say Jorge Lorenzo or Stoner, with Gibernau mostly not even on a factory bike; Mick Doohan managed to beat a younger Max for a title when he was 33 btw.

Imo the early poster who suggested 2009 was the best indicator of his stature has it right, ie he was better than a top 10 all time rider and winner of 5 titles himself in Jorge Lorenzo at a time both were close to their primes, but not totally dominant over him/dominant to the extent he was over the likes of Gibernau and Biaggi.
Click to expand...

Ok, but as much as I always disliked him, Biaggi in his prime was a world-class rider. One of the very best. Ask Kanemoto about him... There is a reason why Lorenzo considered him as his model. And Pedrosa also has consistently been one of the best riders out there, for so many years. Mighty Honda designed an entire new formula around him "to beat Valentino Rossi", and failed. Hayden himself was hailed as the next rider from America who could terminate Rossi's domination. And they all rode a factory Honda, not a quirky Ducati or a Suzuki.

Dismissing great riders and bikes to implicitly dismiss Rossi, is a lame and partisan proposition. And anyway, can't blame a rider for not beating someone who wasn't there. Then, Rossi did beat Stoner and Lorenzo in 2008 and 2009, didn't he.
 
Keshav said:
To say nothing of the selection factor. Stoner documented this in his bio, saying how Rossi and the bigger names, at a minimum, got the tires they requested, whereas less favoured riders got whatever mismatched crap Michelin threw at them. If Rossi demanded a specific tire, he got it. Other riders, could end up with a front that was biased on the left and a rear biased on the right.
Click to expand...

That was Honda's own blindness in 2006: they should have given the SNS to Stoner, rather than Elias. Then we would have seen something really interesting. :)
 
Keshav said:
To say nothing of the selection factor. Stoner documented this in his bio, saying how Rossi and the bigger names, at a minimum, got the tires they requested, whereas less favoured riders got whatever mismatched crap Michelin threw at them. If Rossi demanded a specific tire, he got it. Other riders, could end up with a front that was biased on the left and a rear biased on the right.
Click to expand...

A Michelin Monkey ....?
 
J4rn0 said:
That advantage was the same for, say, Gibernau, Pedrosa (then Hayden) and Rossi. The data for the SNS were given, as a policy, by the lead riders of Honda and Yamaha and Michelin had to keep everybody happy. At Estoril 2006, Elias won not simply because he had SNS, but because Rossi's tires didn't make the race. Rossi had a comfortable margin until his tires gave in, while Elias' tires lasted to the last lap. Had Rossi's tires lasted as well, there was no story. Of course that was a case in which maybe Rossi didn't manage his tires perfectly; but SNS were not enough of a factor to fill the gap between an Elias and a Rossi, -- if that's what you are trying to say. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I can remember talk at the end of the SNS era of Rossi being of the belief that Michelin were favouring the HRC riders over him, although perhaps not at that race since Elias got the SNS tires because they didn’t suit Pedrosa, and Colin Edwards’ own testimony was that in general the SNS tires suited Rossi, certainly rather than him anyway.

I don’t have as much problem with the SNS tires and Rossi as some, Michelin basically just continued their long term policy of playing favourites/running a tiered system of tire supply going back to at least Wayne Rainey’s time, but as I have said did have a problem with bitter complaints about the Bridgestone tires advantaging Stoner in 2007, that advantage if there was one being fairly won as a result of years of co-development with Ducati starting from the position of the Michelins definitely being the tire to have. The talk, admittedly never substantiated, that Rossi made threats to get on the Bridgestones himself the next season, and that 1 year of the Bridgestones perhaps being better after years of Michelin dominance seemed to prompt Dorna to bring in a control tire, didn’t impress me either.
 
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J4rn0 said:
Ok, but as much as I always disliked him, Biaggi in his prime was a world-class rider. One of the very best. Ask Kanemoto about him... There is a reason why Lorenzo considered him as his model. And Pedrosa also has consistently been one of the best riders out there, for so many years. Mighty Honda designed an entire new formula around him "to beat Valentino Rossi", and failed. Hayden himself was hailed as the next rider from America who could terminate Rossi's domination. And they all rode a factory Honda, not a quirky Ducati or a Suzuki.

Dismissing great riders and bikes to implicitly dismiss Rossi, is a lame and partisan proposition. And anyway, can't blame a rider for not beating someone who wasn't there. Then, Rossi did beat Stoner and Lorenzo in 2008 and 2009, didn't he.
Click to expand...

Sure, there is no doubt about Rossi’s greatness as a rider, and there is also no such thing as a GOAT rider imo, comparisons across different generations being invidious, and all riders can do no more than beat the riders who turn up to race them as you say. MM has certainly already put himself right up there in the gp bike racing pantheon though, and already is ahead of Rossi’s remarkable early career in terms of titles won at his current age. I don’t think there is any way his riding style will carry through to contending for titles at age 39, which is where Rossi may be truly singular in maintaining the motivation, fitness etc to still be so fast at that age, but I don’t think there is any requirement for riders to continue that long either.
 
michaelm said:
I can remember talk at the end of the SNS era of Rossi being of the belief that Michelin were favouring the HRC riders over him, although perhaps not at that race since Elias got the SNS tires because they didn’t suit Pedrosa, and Colin Edwards’ own testimony was that in general the SNS tires suited Rossi, certainly rather than him anyway.

I don’t have as much problem with the SNS tires and Rossi as some, Michelin basically just continued their long term policy of playing favourites/running a tiered system of tire supply going back to at least Wayne Rainey’s time, but as I have said did have a problem with bitter complaints about the Bridgestone tires advantaging Stoner in 2007, that advantage if there was one being fairly won as a result of years of co-development with Ducati starting from the position of the Michelins definitely being the tire to have. The talk, admittedly never substantiated, that Rossi made threats to get on the Bridgestone himself the next season, and that 1 year of the Bridgestones perhaps being better after years of Michelin dominance seemed to prompt Dorna to bring in a control tire, didn’t impress me either.
Click to expand...

Never substantiated? Rossi made threats to go to F1 if he couldn’t get on the Bridgestones which prompted Carmelo to approach Bridgestone on his behalf. Carmelo was told by Bridgestone they did not want supply Rossi and Carmelo responded to that by telling Bridgestone that he would go to a spec tire and Michelin would most likely win that bid. Bridgestone agreed , 08 turned into a nightmare with the riders screaming about Rossi getting Bridgestones. Pedrosa was allowed to switch midway thru the season after the championship was out of reach and after it became obvious the other riders would switch for 09, they went ahead and announced the switch to spec Bridgestones. Ducati and Stoner pleaded to switch to Michelin because the construction on the Bridgestone had gone away from what made the Duc work and of course they were denied.
 

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