Making the case for Marquez

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MdubSTYLIE said:
I agree that Rossi at Welkom was a defining moment in his career. But I don't agree that because Marc has been on honda, a good bike every year, that he should be discredited. Bottom line is Marc does things on a regular base that no other rider can pull off on their luckiest day. Not even Stoner. Marc isn't just the GOAT he is the new and improved GMO GOAT.
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It’s not a discredit to MM.
Rossi’s jump to Yamaha is not just defined by his own unreal 2004 season. He left behind a bike that he utterly dominated on. None of the 1500 people Honda put on it since his departure came anywhere close to matching him on it.

Combine the two and you will see what a phenomenon he was.
 
synn said:
It’s not a discredit to MM.
Rossi’s jump to Yamaha is not just defined by his own unreal 2004 season. He left behind a bike that he utterly dominated on. None of the 1500 people Honda put on it since his departure came anywhere close to matching him on it.

Combine the two and you will see what a phenomenon he was.
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Rossi wasn't as dominant as Doohan nor did he win as many races in a single season as Marquez without even getting into control tyres.
 
Marquez is the best at the moment. You may like his personality or not, but that doesn't change it. Comparisons with past riders are pointless, including Stoner who retired just in time to make any direct confrontation impossible. I'm not saying that Stoner intentionally avoided having to race Marc: actually a little later he wanted to ride a wild card at Austin itself, Marquez' own garden, but was denied the opportunity by Honda. Marquez insisted he didn't even know about it and didn't have a say in the decision.

Saying that a rider who has retired would beat the whole field nowadays, is also pointless. Had Rossi retired in 2010, many would argue he would have beaten all those who came afterwards, but we know better because he was enough of a sport to continue racing, going to Ducati, etc. etc. Like him or not, he's still there honorably racing the fastest kids in the world at 40. One can blame Rossi for many things, but not for that.
 
synn said:
Marquez is a great rider. There’s no arguing that.
However, he jumped on a championship winning bike, won more championships and stayed on that bike.

When Rossi mounted the M1 at Welkom in 2004, no one expected him to win the race, let alone the championship. Let me know when Marquez does that. Then let’s talk GOATdom.
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Please tell us about the rossi Ducati era. And while you are at it. Please explain why no other Honda rider, has won the championship since Marc?
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
I agree that Rossi at Welkom was a defining moment in his career. But I don't agree that because Marc has been on honda, a good bike every year, that he should be discredited. Bottom line is Marc does things on a regular base that no other rider can pull off on their luckiest day. Not even Stoner. Marc isn't just the GOAT he is the new and improved GMO GOAT.
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Well said and even when the 10th is achieved. There will still be the yellow fan club in denial.
 
synn said:
It’s not a discredit to MM.
Rossi’s jump to Yamaha is not just defined by his own unreal 2004 season. He left behind a bike that he utterly dominated on. None of the 1500 people Honda put on it since his departure came anywhere close to matching him on it.

Combine the two and you will see what a phenomenon he was.
Click to expand...


He took his whole crew & the SNS tires with him to yamaha. It was rather clear what was going to happened. :fool:
 
J4rn0 said:
Marquez is the best at the moment. You may like his personality or not, but that doesn't change it. Comparisons with past riders are pointless, including Stoner who retired just in time to make any direct confrontation impossible. I'm not saying that Stoner intentionally avoided having to race Marc: actually a little later he wanted to ride a wild card at Austin itself, Marquez' own garden, but was denied the opportunity by Honda. Marquez insisted he didn't even know about it and didn't have a say in the decision.

Saying that a rider who has retired would beat the whole field nowadays, is also pointless. Had Rossi retired in 2010, many would argue he would have beaten all those who came afterwards, but we know better because he was enough of a sport to continue racing, going to Ducati, etc. etc. Like him or not, he's still there honorably racing the fastest kids in the world at 40. One can blame Rossi for many things, but not for that.
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Cant find any fault with your comment. However, he could fix the 2015 Philip Island ........ he started, but he choose not to. This is where most of us have a problem with him.
 
I really do think that Casey is probably the fastest person to ever throw a leg over a motorcycle.
But if you put him, Marc and Vale on identical bikes in a race then I think Marc would rough him up.
Having said that, if you gave them an open track then Casey would set the fastest time.

Vale's longevity is incredible though and, given his wealth, it shows his love of motorcycle racing as a motivation.

But I really cannot see past Marc's mixture of out and out speed, racing ability and just the things he can do on a motorcycle. Having said all that, both Vale and Casey have titles on multiple manufacturers.
I know that you can argue the importance of this, but it shows adaptability and gives credence to the old saying, "If you're fast, then you're fast on anything."
 
michaelm said:
I tend to agree, but he hasn't had Rossi's longevity as yet, and i understand much of what is being said about him in this article also applied to Mike Hailwood.

I would rate him higher than Doohan personally, but the dismissal of Doohan as being on a dominant bike on which he was presented few hurdles is a little facile. Even apart from the bike being as much of a rival as the opposing riders on a 500 2 -stroke and constantly trying to kill you, and succeeding in crippling Doohan to the extent he had to have a special hand/thumb operated brake, he was dominating other greats of the sport in the year of his injury, HRC gave Criville and other riders his settings, and iirc there were 5 identical Hondas on the grid in one of his championship years. Positing a bike advantage as being due to a bike only he could ride also seems a trifle contradictory. I would also, like Birdman, put in a word for Lawson.

I don't think there is any way MM could ride one of those vicious golden era 500 2-strokes the way he rides a 4-stroke, although I have no doubt he would quickly develop an appropriate different method.
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I think Marquez , Lorenzo, and Stoner would have been excellent 500 riders . Stoner and Lorenzo have some of the most precise throttle control in the history of the sport and Marquez just has the ability to ride a bike period. Of those three, Marc would be the one most at risk and would have to change his approach the most. As far as Rossi’s longevity, the switch to the 4 stroke no doubt has played a huge factor and his competitiveness has been virtually guaranteed while sitting on one of the 4 bikes capable of winning the vast majority of his career. Had Rossi competed under this rules package and rider talent his entire career, we may be talking about him in the same terms as we talk about Pedrosa. Here’s a what if, what if Marquez wins this year and the next three years , “ not a long shot” and walks away with 8 championships in 9 years, would Rossi’s longevity still hold any water in this debate.
 
povol said:
I think Marquez , Lorenzo, and Stoner would have been excellent 500 riders . Stoner and Lorenzo have some of the most precise throttle control in the history of the sport and Marquez just has the ability to ride a bike period. Of those three, Marc would be the one most at risk and would have to change his approach the most. As far as Rossi’s longevity, the switch to the 4 stroke no doubt has played a huge factor and his competitiveness has been virtually guaranteed while sitting on one of the 4 bikes capable of winning the vast majority of his career. Had Rossi competed under this rules package and rider talent his entire career, we may be talking about him in the same terms as we talk about Pedrosa. Here’s a what if, what if Marquez wins this year and the next three years , “ not a long shot” and walks away with 8 championships in 9 years, would Rossi’s longevity still hold any water in this debate.
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He has more titles at 25 than Rossi had, so another 3 years could well be sufficient longevity to surpass Rossi as you say, and the longevity thing would then become rather moot and down to whatever MM feels like doing. He hasn’t done it till he has done it though obviously.
 
synn said:
It’s not a discredit to MM.
Rossi’s jump to Yamaha is not just defined by his own unreal 2004 season. He left behind a bike that he utterly dominated on. None of the 1500 people Honda put on it since his departure came anywhere close to matching him on it.

Combine the two and you will see what a phenomenon he was.
Click to expand...

What Rossi did at yamaha was undeniably impressive. But half the credit goes to Burgess imo. They developed a bike Rossi could win on immediately. Take him away from the story and it could have been another ducati story. The riders since Rossi on the Honda have had to deal with a yamaha that was as good as the honda because of Rossi and Burgess true, but Stoner and Marc where just as good or better on the honda to me. They just had more to deal with. JLo on a yamaha for example. Notice how its not Rossi on the yamaha but JLo, Rossi will go down as one of the greats of all time but not the GOAT to anyone besides his fans. I think it is safe to say because of Rossi riders like JLo, Marc, and Stoner exist. Rossi's dominance breeded better riders. Its simple evolution brah.
 
Rossi’s longevity has worked against his legacy and the more Dorna works to equalize the bikes, the more his legacy will suffer. Rossi has 1 win in the last 2 calendar years from Assen 2016 , him actually winning a race these days has become an oddity.
 
povol said:
Rossi’s longevity has worked against his legacy and the more Dorna works to equalize the bikes, the more his legacy will suffer. Rossi has 1 win in the last 2 calendar years from Assen 2016 , him actually winning a race these days has become an oddity.
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Spot on! And what Michaelm put forth in post #30 pretty much back up your point. But as we know there are others who simply refuse to accept the facts.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
What Rossi did at yamaha was undeniably impressive. But half the credit goes to Burgess imo. They developed a bike Rossi could win on immediately. Take him away from the story and it could have been another ducati story. The riders since Rossi on the Honda have had to deal with a yamaha that was as good as the honda because of Rossi and Burgess true, but Stoner and Marc where just as good or better on the honda to me. They just had more to deal with. JLo on a yamaha for example. Notice how its not Rossi on the yamaha but JLo, Rossi will go down as one of the greats of all time but not the GOAT to anyone besides his fans. I think it is safe to say because of Rossi riders like JLo, Marc, and Stoner exist. Rossi's dominance breeded better riders. Its simple evolution brah.
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If burgess deserves some credit for Rossi’s immediate success on the Yamaha, he deserves some of the blame on the lack of it on the Ducati. It cuts both ways.

The problem with “But what’s about Ducati” is that that’s not how you measure someone’s GOATdom. You look at the career as a whole. Marquez right now is in the stage of his career when Rossi was in 2004-2006. It is simply too early to say how he is an altime greatat the peak. For all we know, he could very well become a Pedrosa in a couple more years. Or leave and drive F1 cars.

So once again, he hasn’t crossed the peak of his career yet, haven’t gone to a second tier bike and showed what he can do or is fighting for championships or P2/P3 a decade and more into his career. Let’s revisit this discussion in a few years time.

But as of now, in this given day, he is the best rider on track by a considerable margin.
 
Rossi's longevity is extremely impressive no doubt though as someone else said the move to 4 strokes has helped that and personally I would say developments in safety and athletes supplements and training as well(athletes now in many sports are competing at their best for longer) has ensured that he can continue to compete well.

However, as the article points out once the SNS were stopped his results nose dived and they've gone down even more since the control tyre. Marquez, Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa have won more races in a season during the control tyre era than Rossi has managed with Lorenzo and Marquez equaling or bettering his best amount wins in a single season on a control tyre multiple times. He has losing records against Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez head to head which HAS to hurt his claim and standing. His results compared to Stoner on the same machinery while not the be all and end all are another thing counting against his argument.

In my opinion that Doohan was more dominant against similar competition with similar advantages(though Doohan never enjoyed an advantage like Rossi had in 02) is very telling as well and must count against Rossi in this argument as well.

The issue with age argument I have is that Rossi was around the same age when he was being beaten by Lorenzo, Stoner and Marquez as his strongest rivals during his title run from 01-05. Doohan and Ago showed you can win championships in your mid 30s and not only I personally don't believe in a sport like MotoGP that age is the be all and end all as most athletes from more conventional who experience the normal decline in their 30s have wear and tear issues on their bodies from years of the abuse professional sports do.

As far as Yamaha are concerned Rossi left Honda to go to the second most successful factory with a genius engineer redesigning the bike and custom tyres. Under current condition he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Does anyone seriously doubt that Marquez could jump on the Yamaha next year and win a championship though and would it really be all that impressive to the people who want him to win on another manufacturer? Marquez's '16 title is more impressive than any title Rossi was ever able to win.

i just don't think you can be called the GOAT when other riders have embarrassed you during your era.
 
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synn said:
If burgess deserves some credit for Rossi’s immediate success on the Yamaha, he deserves some of the blame on the lack of it on the Ducati. It cuts both ways.

The problem with “But what’s about Ducati” is that that’s not how you measure someone’s GOATdom. You look at the career as a whole. Marquez right now is in the stage of his career when Rossi was in 2004-2006. It is simply too early to say how he is an altime greatat the peak. For all we know, he could very well become a Pedrosa in a couple more years. Or leave and drive F1 cars.

So once again, he hasn’t crossed the peak of his career yet, haven’t gone to a second tier bike and showed what he can do or is fighting for championships or P2/P3 a decade and more into his career. Let’s revisit this discussion in a few years time.

But as of now, in this given day, he is the best rider on track by a considerable margin.
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I don't deny that burgess failed at ducati. I don't judge riders by their failures but their ability to overcome failures plus achievements. Simply put Rossi is not nearly as skilled as Marc and GOATs are usually judged by ability plus achievements. Here is the thing about rating Rossi over Marc, Rossi cannot and will not beat Marc in points unless Marc makes a mistake. I think it is safe to say if you put Marc into Rossi's prime MM would still handle him with ease. Rossi is in the argument for greatest of all time for me but falls short to Marc.
 
p4p1 said:
Rossi's longevity is extremely impressive no doubt though as someone else said the move to 4 strokes has helped that and personally I would say developments in safety and athletes supplements and training as well(athletes now in many sports are competing at their best for longer) has ensured that he can continue to compete well.

However, as the article points out once the SNS were stopped his results nose dived and they've gone down even more since the control tyre. Marquez, Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa have won more races in a season during the control tyre era than Rossi has managed with Lorenzo and Marquez equaling or bettering his best amount wins in a single season on a control tyre multiple times. He has losing records against Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez head to head which HAS to hurt his claim and standing. His results compared to Stoner on the same machinery while not the be all and end all are another thing counting against his argument.

In my opinion that Doohan was more dominant against similar competition with similar advantages(though Doohan never enjoyed an advantage like Rossi had in 02) is very telling as well and must count against Rossi in this argument as well.

The issue with age argument I have is that Rossi was around the same age when he was being beaten by Lorenzo, Stoner and Marquez as his strongest rivals during his title run from 01-05. Doohan and Ago showed you can win championships in your mid 30s and not only I personally don't believe in a sport like MotoGP that age is the be all and end all as most athletes from more conventional who experience the normal decline in their 30s have wear and tear issues on their bodies from years of the abuse professional sports do.

As far as Yamaha are concerned Rossi left Honda to go to the second most successful factory with a genius engineer redesigning the bike and custom tyres. Under current condition he wouldn't be able to do the same again. Does anyone seriously doubt that Marquez could jump on the Yamaha next year and win a championship though and would it really be all that impressive to the people who want him to win on another manufacturer? Marquez's '16 title is more impressive than any title Rossi was ever able to win.

i just don't think you can be called the GOAT when other riders have embarrassed you during your era.
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You do know that he won a championship with control tyres and was well poised to win another one before he got injured and missed races, right?

125, 250, 500, 990, 800 and within a hair’s breath of a championship with the 1000s.

2 strokes. 4 strokes. No electronics. Some electronics. A .... load of electronics. Unified electronics.

Dunlops, Bridgestones, Michelins.

SNS. Control tyres. A dominant win at PI making up 10 seconds to overcome a penalty with no SNS.

If there’s another rider with a career full of championships and wins with all these variables, please tell me who that is.
 
MdubSTYLIE said:
I don't deny that burgess failed at ducati. I don't judge riders by their failures but their ability to overcome failures plus achievements. Simply put Rossi is not nearly as skilled as Marc and GOATs are usually judged by ability plus achievements. Here is the thing about rating Rossi over Marc, Rossi cannot and will not beat Marc in points unless Marc makes a mistake. I think it is safe to say if you put Marc into Rossi's prime MM would still handle him with ease. Rossi is in the argument for greatest of all time for me but falls short to Marc.
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Crashy Crashlow, a rider who got along with the Shitcati even worse than Rossi, is winning races and staying at the sharp end on the RCV. Now imagine what the vastly more talented Rossi will be on it now.

If we are playing the what if game, put Rossi and Marquez on the same bike. Be it the current RCV or the M1. I am fairly confident it will be a lot closer than what it is currently. Marquez will definitely have more miracle saves, but Rossi will just crash a lot less.

I will concede, there is still a higher chance of Marquez coming out on top. But that again is a test of current form, not GOATdom.
 
synn said:
You do know that he won a championship with control tyres and was well poised to win another one before he got injured and missed races, right?

125, 250, 500, 990, 800 and within a hair’s breath of a championship with the 1000s.

2 strokes. 4 strokes. No electronics. Some electronics. A .... load of electronics. Unified electronics.

Dunlops, Bridgestones, Michelins.

SNS. Control tyres. A dominant win at PI making up 10 seconds to overcome a penalty with no SNS.

If there’s another rider with a career full of championships and wins with all these variables, please tell me who that is.
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Yes 1 title with a grand total of 6 wins with a years worth of extra experience than his rivals. Poised to win means .... all, he was poised to win in 06 and 07 as well. Compare that to his previous dominance or the dominance that Marquez, Lorenzo and Stoner had on control tyres. Then also 2006, the first year of no SNS, 2007 where he was beaten by not only Stoner but Pedrosa who was on the same tyres.

You mention the 10 second penalty thing but Stoner, Lorenzo, Doohan and Marquez have all won races by more than 10 seconds(as has Rossi) so without hyperbole is it really that impressive or unheard of. Hell Marquez made up far more than 10 seconds on the field earlier this year.

Marquez has won with no electronics, a shitload of electronics and unified electronics. Rossi has never won a championship with unified electronics though. So that doesn't really help your point.

Marquez won on 2 strokes and 4 strokes though I concede 500>125

Marquez has won on Dunlop, Bridgestone and Michelin but it's more impressive because he done it all on a control tyre. Rossi never won a championship on Michelins once SNS were outlawed.

Counting the different versions of MotoGP doesn't really mean much because the rest of the field was dealing with the same changes he was. It's moot point and it's unlikely others will be racing during 4 rule major changes in the span of a decade. It's just a made up stat that Rossi fans bring up when clutching at straws and realistically means very little when others were having to make the same or bigger adaptions.

Marquez has beaten better riders on better bikes with control tyres and control electronics.

As for Cal vs Rossi on the Ducati, Cal put the Ducati on a podium in his first year which Rossi also managed. The big difference is the bike Rossi had jumped on had won 3 of the last 6 races the previous season. The bike Cal jumped on hadn't won for 3.5 years and wouldn't win for another 2. Cal for all his faults can be fast when things are going right for him but he throws it down the road far too consistently to ever win more than the occasional race or get the occasional podium.
 
p4p1 said:
Yes 1 title with a grand total of 6 wins with a years worth of extra experience than his rivals. Poised to win means .... all, he was poised to win in 06 and 07 as well. Compare that to his previous dominance or the dominance that Marquez, Lorenzo and Stoner had on control tyres. Then also 2006, the first year of no SNS, 2007 where he was beaten by not only Stoner but Pedrosa who was on the same tyres.

You mention the 10 second penalty thing but Stoner, Lorenzo, Doohan and Marquez have all won races by more than 10 seconds(as has Rossi) so without hyperbole is it really that impressive or unheard of. Hell Marquez made up far more than 10 seconds on the field earlier this year.

Marquez has won with no electronics, a shitload of electronics and unified electronics. Rossi has never won a championship with unified electronics though. So that doesn't really help your point.

Marquez won on 2 strokes and 4 strokes though I concede 500>125

Marquez has won on Dunlop, Bridgestone and Michelin but it's more impressive because he done it all on a control tyre. Rossi never won a championship on Michelins once SNS were outlawed.

Counting the different versions of MotoGP doesn't really mean much because the rest of the field was dealing with the same changes he was. It's moot point and it's unlikely others will be racing during 4 rule major changes in the span of a decade. It's just a made up stat that Rossi fans bring up when clutching at straws and realistically means very little when others were having to make the same or bigger adaptions.

Marquez has beaten better riders on better bikes with control tyres and control electronics.

As for Cal vs Rossi on the Ducati, Cal put the Ducati on a podium in his first year which Rossi also managed. The big difference is the bike Rossi had jumped on had won 3 of the last 6 races the previous season. The bike Cal jumped on hadn't won for 3.5 years and wouldn't win for another 2. Cal for all his faults can be fast when things are going right for him but he throws it down the road far too consistently to ever win more than the occasional race or get the occasional podium.
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If poised to win means nothing, please stop talking about Stacey Moaner.
Two championships in a decade plus career means fuckall in the grand scheme of things.
 

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