What does count for Casey though is his pure unmatched speed on a bike. I feel Vale had better race craft, but he could never be as stone cold fast as Casey. This is just my opinion of course.
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What does count for Casey though is his pure unmatched speed on a bike. I feel Vale had better race craft, but he could never be as stone cold fast as Casey. This is just my opinion of course.
I don’t disagree.
But speed alone does not make an all time great. Mental fortitude is a big part and Stoner didn’t have it. Rossi does, Marquez does (Maybe to a greater extent).
Yeah. I think this is evident with Marc when he has a massive moment and just keeps it pinned (like in jrez this year when he slid over the gravel from Thom Luthi's crash) or when he crashes in practice, jumps straight on to his number 2 bike and goes even quicker first time out.
I don't think you can do what Vale is doing right now (2nd in the championship at 39) without incredible mental strength.
Nonsense. 6 titles makes him an all time great by any measure if he stopped tomorrow, if not necessarily Rossi’s superior overall.
If he does win another 3 titles, I am not sure that Rossi’s last 10 seasons help his case against MM unless he does win the 8th/10th at pushing 40, testimony to his endurance and continuing motivation, and quality at his peak given he is still competitive, though those years have been.
No-one talks about Stoner as GOAT except Barry and he is taking the urine/being wry. Posters did at one time make the case for him being the FOAT/fastest of all time but that mantle probably belongs to MM now.
The mental toughness thing is a different issue, and facile particularly coming from an armchair observer who often calls others out for being armchair critics. He won a title and 23 races on an 800 Ducati, including 3 races on that horrible pig GP10, and had another dominant title win for a different marque which you have advanced as a criterion for greatness on this very thread.He is tough beyond any imagining of yours but, sure, did not have the absolute continuing drive/will to win that the likes of Rossi and MM have; he often seemed to be racing more against the track and the limits of his bike rather than the other riders.
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No Im serious when I say Stoner is the goat. I know several riders have also said it. I just assume those that ride think that.
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Marc won the title his rookie year on an inferior bike to the Yamaha that had won the title in 2012. Rossi was given the best bike on the grid his rookie year and failed to win the title. Marc has won titles in 13- 16 where he clearly had the inferior bike , and 17 , where for over half the season he had the inferior bike. 14 he was on the best bike and he will win it this year on a bike that is equal to the Ducati.
Great post.
The 2012 and 2013 RCV was a fantastic bike. Dani was really strong on it. Even Bautista was very strong on it in 2013 (on a satellite bike).
He very well may become the GOAT. He still has a lot to do before he is, though.
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Still not following.
Marquez has 98 premier starts and 39 wins
Just to make it easy, let's use Rossi's first 97, since that makes it even years.
MM
18 18 18 18 18 8 = 98
6 13 5 5 6 4 = 39
98 39 .397
Let's take away a win and make it 97 races and 38 wins.
.391
Rossi
16 16 16 16 16 17 = 97
2 11 11 9 9 11 = 53
.546
The big win numbers will probably never be seen again, unless the rules are changed back. MM is constantly on the edge to lead the championship. No cruising around for him.
And why is Doohan absent from these statistics?
Marquez has 98 premier starts and 39 wins
Just to make it easy, let's use Rossi's first 97, since that makes it even years.
MM
18 18 18 18 18 8 = 98
6 13 5 5 6 4 = 39
98 39 .397
Let's take away a win and make it 97 races and 38 wins.
.391
Rossi
16 16 16 16 16 17 = 97
2 11 11 9 9 11 = 53
.546
The big win numbers will probably never be seen again, unless the rules are changed back. MM is constantly on the edge to lead the championship. No cruising around for him.
And why is Doohan absent from these statistics?
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There is no truer stat than head to head and there is this wonderful sample size of 5 1/2 seasons . What Rossi did against the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau has no bearing on what he has done against Marquez himself. It even throws out the Ducati years as Rossi has been on his beloved Yamaha the entire time Marc has been in GP and in that time the Yamaha has been the better bike in 13, 15, 16 and the better part of 17. Let’s just imagine for a minute if Marquez’s main competition for the last 5 1/2 years had been Dani and Dovi which really isn’t fair to Dani since he has more wins himself than Biaggi and Gibernau combined. The article is about pointing out how Rossi came across those numbers and anyone who thinks it coincidence that Rossi’s numbers fell off a cliff after the ban of the SNS and the infusion of talent starting in 06 is kidding themselves. The real Rossi is much closer to the 09 to today figures since every rider has been on the same rubber. The more you look, the less there is for debate at all, Marquez is head and shoulders above Rossi
Thanks.
Mick's win numbers weren't that impressive early in his career (due to injuries from 92 that affected his title run that year, and that affected him well into 93). He really started destroying the opposition in 94. He's unique in the sense that his win figures were much stronger in the latter half of his GP career versus the first half of his GP career (again, largely due to injuries, but also due to coming up against Rainey, KS34, Lawson, Gardner etc.).
He won two titles after the SNS, actually. And he won two titles before SNS (i.e. 125cc and 250cc, where he was the tallest bloke on the grid). So 4/9 titles were not on SNS.
Also, a 35 year old Rossi beat a 22 year old MM, head to head, in 2015...without SNS. I wonder if a 35 year old MM could beat a 22 year old Rossi? We'll see how good he is at that age. It will be interesting!
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1 out of 6 years Rossi will have beaten Marc in points (not wins or titles) , the other 5 will have resulted in championships for Marc to 0 for Rossi. This is the 10th year n Rossi’career where riders have been on equal rubber and Rossi’s numbers n that timeframe are pretty unextraordinary and 6 of his titles came with a tire advantage. Actually all 7 did because 09 he had a huge data advantage on the Bridgestones. Once that last advantage dried up he has 12 wins and 0 titles in 9 1/2 seasons which actually puts him in comparison to Dovi, not Marc.
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Do you discredit or trivialize those who won titles with a tiered tire system in the 500cc era?
That's a non-sequitur though. Your point was about Rossi needing SNS to be competitive.
Marc is simply an awesome talent in his prime.
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