LeMans 2013 Race Thread

[Mental Anarchist]

michaelm

3519711369136800

I suspect there is an element of the younger riders as "digital natives" or whatever perhaps melding better with the electronic aids. However imo the default position should be to give credit to riders for their success rather than looking for reasons to detract from such success; similar arguments against Stoner certailnly annoyed me as I expect they did you, rather Kropotkin's point I think. 

 

I don't believe too many conclusions should be drawn from Jorge's only "bad" race for 3 or more years; what about all the other wet/variable condition races as has been said. A simpler explanation is that something went wrong with a tyre or his bike including the electronics, or that he mucked up his race set-up for once as appeared to be the case with Stoner in the race after Sachsenring last year; whatever was wrong that day didn't seem to be amenable to Stoner's hand on the throttle either.

I don't even come close to suggesting that Lorenzo is not a great rider. As I said he has won his whole career from a very young age. I also suggested that perhaps Lorenzo and his team are geniuses. Their method has won 2 WC. Just as Stoner did it different to everyone else, Lorenzo is also doing it different. This is the electronic age of motorcycle racing and he is maximising the use of electronics and kicking arse. The only negatives I have stated is that his style doesn't have a plan B if conditions change and his set up fails because he doesn't have throttle control and that in my opinion his inline style is boring.

 

[michaelm]

Mental Anarchist

3519771369138865

I don't even come close to suggesting that Lorenzo is not a great rider. As I said he has won his whole career from a very young age. I also suggested that perhaps Lorenzo and his team are geniuses. Their method has won 2 WC. Just as Stoner did it different to everyone else, Lorenzo is also doing it different. This is the electronic age of motorcycle racing and he is maximising the use of electronics and kicking arse. The only negatives I have stated is that his style doesn't have a plan B if conditions change and his set up fails because he doesn't have throttle control and that in my opinion his inline style is boring.

I find his style boring as well. As I said though, his style has barely seen him off the podium except through the errors of others in 3 or more years, which would rather argue for adaptability rather than its absence. I would draw more from his amazingly consistent performances over so many races rather than this one race which may prove aberrant.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

michaelm

3519781369139265

I find his style boring as well. As I said though, adjustable or not his style has barely seen him off the podium except through the errors of others in 3 or more years, which would rather argue for adaptability rather than its absence. I would draw more from his amazingly consistent performances over so many races rather than this one race which may prove aberrant.

It is actually his metronomic consistency that is the basis of my theory. The latest race I think just backs up my theory that the metronome is the electronics rather than the rider. What the rider is doing in Lorenzo's case is using the metronomic nature of the electronics to kick arse, better than anybody else is able to or has worked out how to.

 

[michaelm]

Mental Anarchist

3519791369139562

It is actually his metronomic consistency that is the basis of my theory. The latest race I think just backs up my theory that the metronome is the electronics rather than the rider. What the rider is doing in Lorenzo's case is using the metronomic nature of the electronics to kick arse, better than anybody else is able to or has worked out how to.

Again, metronomic consistency is probably the most efficient way to ride in fuel economy formulae, and exploits the advantages of the Yamaha in terms of handling/corner speed and (previously anyway) tyre wear as Birdman says, particularly when competing against HRC bikes. I am prepared to credit him more than the electronics; I guess we will never know unless he switches to HRC, which doesn't seem likely, although stranger things have happened as you know, cf Eddie Lawson.


 


This again also recalls similar comment regarding Stoner's lack of racecraft on the Ducati; it seems to have emerged since that that thing wouldn't function unless ridden flat out all the time as he was criticised for doing.

 

[Kropotkin]

Mental Anarchist

3519791369139562

It is actually his metronomic consistency that is the basis of my theory. The latest race I think just backs up my theory that the metronome is the electronics rather than the rider. What the rider is doing in Lorenzo's case is using the metronomic nature of the electronics to kick arse, better than anybody else is able to or has worked out how to.

As I speak Dutch, I speak to Zeelenberg quite a lot. If you ask Zeelenberg about Lorenzo's strongest point, he immediately replies that it's his ability to focus, to concentrate. He can maintain his focus at 100% for all 45 minutes of the race (I can usually manage a whole 45 seconds without getting sidetracked). This, I believe, is a better explanation for his metronomic consistency. He can ride to the same limit for lap after lap, because he can concentrate at the same intensity for lap after lap, without flagging. This seems a more realistic explanation for Lorenzo's ability than his reliance on electronics. After all, as others have said, if it was that easy, then they'd all be that fast.

On a related note, one of the things which Nakamoto keeps highlighting about Pedrosa is that having Stoner as a teammate opened his eyes about electronics. He now uses much less electronic assistance than he did before, and has become faster as a result. I think that says a lot about the limits of electronic rider aids.

 

[michaelm]

Kropotkin

3519811369140491

As I speak Dutch, I speak to Zeelenberg quite a lot. If you ask Zeelenberg about Lorenzo's strongest point, he immediately replies that it's his ability to focus, to concentrate. He can maintain his focus at 100% for all 45 minutes of the race (I can usually manage a whole 45 seconds without getting sidetracked). This, I believe, is a better explanation for his metronomic consistency. He can ride to the same limit for lap after lap, because he can concentrate at the same intensity for lap after lap, without flagging. This seems a more realistic explanation for Lorenzo's ability than his reliance on electronics. After all, as others have said, if it was that easy, then they'd all be that fast.


On a related note, one of the things which Nakamoto keeps highlighting about Pedrosa is that having Stoner as a teammate opened his eyes about electronics. He now uses much less electronic assistance than he did before, and has become faster as a result. I think that says a lot about the limits of electronic rider aids.

This is also what Forcada said about Lorenzo in AMCN, I think early in or just prior to the 2011 season. I think he crewed for Stoner at one stage at well, and said Lorenzo worked incredibly hard, much harder than Stoner.

 

[thedeal]

Mamola said Casey was the first of the "robot riders" who just open the throttle and let the electronics do the work, make of that what you will.

 

[J4rn0]

In 2007 I disagreed that Casey's speed was due to electronics, and I disagree today in the case of Lorenzo (although I do believe he uses them fully to his advantage; but being able to exploit them better than others is part of his skill, so we come back to the human factor).


 


But is he a boring rider? Oh yes.

 

[Keshav]

thedeal

3519831369141445

Mamola said Casey was the first of the "robot riders" who just open the throttle and let the electronics do the work, make of that what you will.

I love Mamola - a true icon of the era, but sometimes he says some silly-... .....

 

[stiefel]

 <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1369144228

351990" data-author="Keshav

I love Mamola - a true icon of the era, but sometimes he says some silly-... .....

 
Yet you can't accept that I feel like that about Schwantz?

 

[Keshav]

stiefel

3519921369145626

  

Yet you can't accept that I feel like that about Schwantz?

I can "accept" that you feel that way. I just didn't agree with the conclusion you came to. Sometimes it's easier to agree to disagree; friends do that all the time. No?


 


You will agree that there's a quantitative difference between a spur-of-the-moment, off-the-cuff remark made by Randy and the statements by Kevin which arose from several years of negotiations on a multi-million dollar contract in which Schwantz invested heavily his time and energy.

 

[stiefel]

 <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1369146183

351994" data-author="Keshav

I can "accept" that you feel that way. I just didn't agree with the conclusion you came to. Sometimes it's easier to agree to disagree; friends do that all the time. No?

 

Just janking your chain Kesh.

 

[povol]

Kropotkin

3519811369140491

As I speak Dutch, I speak to Zeelenberg quite a lot. If you ask Zeelenberg about Lorenzo's strongest point, he immediately replies that it's his ability to focus, to concentrate. He can maintain his focus at 100% for all 45 minutes of the race (I can usually manage a whole 45 seconds without getting sidetracked). This, I believe, is a better explanation for his metronomic consistency. He can ride to the same limit for lap after lap, because he can concentrate at the same intensity for lap after lap, without flagging. This seems a more realistic explanation for Lorenzo's ability than his reliance on electronics. After all, as others have said, if it was that easy, then they'd all be that fast.


On a related note, one of the things which Nakamoto keeps highlighting about Pedrosa is that having Stoner as a teammate opened his eyes about electronics. He now uses much less electronic assistance than he did before, and has become faster as a result. I think that says a lot about the limits of electronic rider aids.

I think thats true with any  racer except for drag racers. That is what seperates the good from the great, is the ability to perform when the mind wants to wander. Thats why i think NASCAR drivers do not get the credit they deserve in the motorsports world, and why so many supposed greats from other series struggle when they try it.       3-4 hours in  an oven at 200 mph with other cars bouncing off of you would have to mentally sapping.  The ones who year in year out run at the front are simply more focused.  

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Kropotkin

3519811369140491

As I speak Dutch, I speak to Zeelenberg quite a lot. If you ask Zeelenberg about Lorenzo's strongest point, he immediately replies that it's his ability to focus, to concentrate. He can maintain his focus at 100% for all 45 minutes of the race (I can usually manage a whole 45 seconds without getting sidetracked). This, I believe, is a better explanation for his metronomic consistency. He can ride to the same limit for lap after lap, because he can concentrate at the same intensity for lap after lap, without flagging. This seems a more realistic explanation for Lorenzo's ability than his reliance on electronics. After all, as others have said, if it was that easy, then they'd all be that fast.


On a related note, one of the things which Nakamoto keeps highlighting about Pedrosa is that having Stoner as a teammate opened his eyes about electronics. He now uses much less electronic assistance than he did before, and has become faster as a result. I think that says a lot about the limits of electronic rider aids.

 


When I watch Lorenzo I see those things, the concentration, the focus.


 


I guess because Stoner was accused of only being good because of electronics (i.e. didn't deserve to win) is clouding this debate.  I am not suggesting what Lorenzo does is easy.  Because as said, if it was easy everyone would do it.  I will say it again, Lorenzo's whole career on bikes from a young age has been spent winning.  He did not become a winner over night.


 


Stoner and now Pedrosa have been fast by not using electronics.  That has been what worked for them.  In my opinion, from what I see is that Lorenzo's style is a result of his <u>successful use</u> of electronics.  This is obviously an incredible skill because no-one else is doing it.  If it was easy to do then everyone would be doing it.


 


The negatives, as I have stated previously are that from what I saw on the weekend when the set up, including electronics, is wrong his throttle control which is not a key part of his successful style is left wanting.  This is contrasted by Marquez.  Marquez started poorly but as the laps ticked down he <u>adapted</u> and carved through the field.  This did not happen to Lorenzo, he didn't adapt.  The number of times Lorenzo has got things wrong over the last few years is so small that it is hard to find other examples.


 


Why do I think this is an entirely possible proposition?  The teams are spending <u>massive</u> money on electronics.  They are not spending this money for it to sit in the back ground.  Go back to 2010 when Yamaha chose Lorenzo over Rossi.  A move that not even Rossi expected.  Did Yamaha make this choice because Lorenzo was developing what they were spending the most money on whilst Rossi was publicly condemning the use of it and those that allegedly relied on it?

 

[JohnnyKnockdown]

Keshav

3519941369146183

I can "accept" that you feel that way. I just didn't agree with the conclusion you came to. Sometimes it's easier to agree to disagree; friends do that all the time. No?

 

You will agree that there's a quantitative difference between a spur-of-the-moment, off-the-cuff remark made by Randy and the statements by Kevin which arose from several years of negotiations on a multi-million dollar contract in which Schwantz invested heavily his time and energy.

Like a spur of the moment off the cuff mark calling fellow riders who have busted their ... their entire life to become a professional racer and risk life and limb every weekend "clowns"

Be careful Steifel, Keshav called you a friend. The last person who had that honor is still pulling knives out of his back

 

[Kropotkin]

Mental Anarchist

3520121369171769

When I watch Lorenzo I see those things, the concentration, the focus.
 
I guess because Stoner was accused of only being good because of electronics (i.e. didn't deserve to win) is clouding this debate.  I am not suggesting what Lorenzo does is easy.  Because as said, if it was easy everyone would do it.  I will say it again, Lorenzo's whole career on bikes from a young age has been spent winning.  He did not become a winner over night.
 
Stoner and now Pedrosa have been fast by not using electronics.  That has been what worked for them.  In my opinion, from what I see is that Lorenzo's style is a result of his <u>successful use</u> of electronics.  This is obviously an incredible skill because no-one else is doing it.  If it was easy to do then everyone would be doing it.
 
The negatives, as I have stated previously are that from what I saw on the weekend when the set up, including electronics, is wrong his throttle control which is not a key part of his successful style is left wanting.  This is contrasted by Marquez.  Marquez started poorly but as the laps ticked down he <u>adapted</u> and carved through the field.  This did not happen to Lorenzo, he didn't adapt.  The number of times Lorenzo has got things wrong over the last few years is so small that it is hard to find other examples.
 
Why do I think this is an entirely possible proposition?  The teams are spending <u>massive</u> money on electronics.  They are not spending this money for it to sit in the back ground.  Go back to 2010 when Yamaha chose Lorenzo over Rossi.  A move that not even Rossi expected.  Did Yamaha make this choice because Lorenzo was developing what they were spending the most money on whilst Rossi was publicly condemning the use of it and those that allegedly relied on it?

Although I disagree - I suspect Lorenzo's throttle control is masterful, but I shall check in Mugello - one thing that is clouding the discussion is the word "electronics". Given the massive role they play in all aspects of engine and chassis behavior now, it is easy to concentrate on TC to the neglect of the rest.

The most important area for electronics is throttle response, creating the feeling of connection between the throttle and the rear wheel. This is the area where Ducati are lacking most of all, and it is one area where Yamaha are strong. I did an interview with Forcada and Pedrosa last year, and one of the things Forcada said to me (I think after I switched the recorder off) is that they crew control the amount the butterflies open in every corner. Lorenzo feeds the throttle in to get a particular response, but the actual response is controlled by the electronics. So in a fast corner, Lorenzo might open the throttle full and the butterflies will open to 90 or 100%, but in a slow corner, he'll open the throttle fully and only open the butterflies by 30 or 40%. The idea is to create the same feeling of response in every corner, though the actual physical response of the throttle butterflies will be different.

Of course, this is true not just for Lorenzo, but for every single rider. And the other thing which the crew is trying to offer is a predictable response, so that the rider can get to the limit of performance - or even just fractionally over it - and know how the bike will respond. This is why I say I don't think Lorenzo uses the electronics more than other riders. I think he takes it to the very limit, and is so smooth that he needs less electronics. Crutchlow, who sees Lorenzo's data, keeps saying that it is his smoothness and his lean angle which amazes him. Crutchlow, Rossi, Smith, Dovizioso can and could all get to the same lean angle as Lorenzo, but only for a few milliseconds, before hitting the ground. Lorenzo carries that corner speed all the way through a turn. The 'mantequilla' is why I think he doesn't need as much electronics. I'll ask around at Mugello.

 

[JohnnyKnockdown]

povol

3519971369148303

I think thats true with any  racer except for drag racers. That is what seperates the good from the great, is the ability to perform when the mind wants to wander. Thats why i think NASCAR drivers do not get the credit they deserve in the motorsports world, and why so many supposed greats from other series struggle when they try it.       3-4 hours in  an oven at 200 mph with other cars bouncing off of you would have to mentally sapping.  The ones who year in year out run at the front are simply more focused.  

As you say that this week we find out that .... Trickle is known for smoking cigarettes during races. That must take a shitload of focus

 

[lil red rocket pilot]

I'd love to see it controlled by a wrist.


Sadly I fear I lived through these days and never knew it was happening.


Thanks for the insight Krop's 

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Kropotkin

3520141369173268

Although I disagree - I suspect Lorenzo's throttle control is masterful, but I shall check in Mugello - one thing that is clouding the discussion is the word "electronics". Given the massive role they play in all aspects of engine and chassis behavior now, it is easy to concentrate on TC to the neglect of the rest.

The most important area for electronics is throttle response, creating the feeling of connection between the throttle and the rear wheel. This is the area where Ducati are lacking most of all, and it is one area where Yamaha are strong. I did an interview with Forcada and Pedrosa last year, and one of the things Forcada said to me (I think after I switched the recorder off) is that they crew control the amount the butterflies open in every corner. Lorenzo feeds the throttle in to get a particular response, but the actual response is controlled by the electronics. So in a fast corner, Lorenzo might open the throttle full and the butterflies will open to 90 or 100%, but in a slow corner, he'll open the throttle fully and only open the butterflies by 30 or 40%. The idea is to create the same feeling of response in every corner, though the actual physical response of the throttle butterflies will be different.


Of course, this is true not just for Lorenzo, but for every single rider. And the other thing which the crew is trying to offer is a predictable response, so that the rider can get to the limit of performance - or even just fractionally over it - and know how the bike will respond. This is why I say I don't think Lorenzo uses the electronics more than other riders. I think he takes it to the very limit, and is so smooth that he needs less electronics. Crutchlow, who sees Lorenzo's data, keeps saying that it is his smoothness and his lean angle which amazes him. Crutchlow, Rossi, Smith, Dovizioso can and could all get to the same lean angle as Lorenzo, but only for a few milliseconds, before hitting the ground. Lorenzo carries that corner speed all the way through a turn. The 'mantequilla' is why I think he doesn't need as much electronics. I'll ask around at Mugello.

 


Thanks.  This is exactly what I am talking about.  I think Lorenzo's skill is that he doesn't try to "beat" this.  He uses it 100% to his advantage.  I suspect other riders try to beat it and therefore aren't as fast or able to use the lean angle that Lorenzo does because the hands is probably not as smooth as the electronics.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

 


Krop,  can you get a clarrification on smooth.  I think it refers to Lorenzo's smoothness of movement on the bike as opposed to his smoothness on the throttle.  This can be seen visually.  Lorenzo's movement id very controlled.  Very smooth as opposed to say Marquez.