LeMans 2013 Race Thread

[Kropotkin]

Mental Anarchist

3520181369174109

Krop,  can you get a clarrification on smooth.  I think it refers to Lorenzo's smoothness of movement on the bike as opposed to his smoothness on the throttle.  This can be seen visually.  Lorenzo's movement id very controlled.  Very smooth as opposed to say Marquez.

From what I understand, he is smooth in everything. His brake and throttle application are incredibly smooth, much smoother than Crutchlow can emulate. Crutchlow said an interesting thing after his crash at Jerez, he said he was feeling beat up, so when he went out for his quali lap, he wasn't trying. That was his fastest lap. Instead of trying to push the bike, he just let it flow, and was fast.

This, I believe, explains Ben Spies' failure on the Yamaha, and why he might yet come good on the Ducati. It will be too late by then, mind.

EDIT: I'll also ask at Mugello.

 

[inam22]

Mental Anarchist

3520121369171769

 

When I watch Lorenzo I see those things, the concentration, the focus.

 

I guess because Stoner was accused of only being good because of electronics (i.e. didn't deserve to win) is clouding this debate.  I am not suggesting what Lorenzo does is easy.  Because as said, if it was easy everyone would do it.  I will say it again, Lorenzo's whole career on bikes from a young age has been spent winning.  He did not become a winner over night.

 

Stoner and now Pedrosa have been fast by not using electronics.  That has been what worked for them.  In my opinion, from what I see is that Lorenzo's style is a result of his successful use of electronics.  This is obviously an incredible skill because no-one else is doing it.  If it was easy to do then everyone would be doing it.

 

The negatives, as I have stated previously are that from what I saw on the weekend when the set up, including electronics, is wrong his throttle control which is not a key part of his successful style is left wanting.  This is contrasted by Marquez.  Marquez started poorly but as the laps ticked down he adapted and carved through the field.  This did not happen to Lorenzo, he didn't adapt.  The number of times Lorenzo has got things wrong over the last few years is so small that it is hard to find other examples.

 

Why do I think this is an entirely possible proposition?  The teams are spending massive money on electronics.  They are not spending this money for it to sit in the back ground.  Go back to 2010 when Yamaha chose Lorenzo over Rossi.  A move that not even Rossi expected.  Did Yamaha make this choice because Lorenzo was developing what they were spending the most money on whilst Rossi was publicly condemning the use of it and those that allegedly relied on it?

Casey got it wrong few times as well where he failed to adapt through out the race and also track condition changed fair bit through out the race might be some thing to do with Marquez finding the speed in the later half the race.


Just one bad race from Lerenzo and all this speculation doesn't make much sense to me. BTW Dani is currently showing why he beat Casey last year on a same bike.

 

[michaelm]

inam

3520221369177077

Casey got it wrong few times as well where he failed to adapt through out the race and also track condition changed fair bit through out the race might be some thing to do with Marquez finding the speed in the later half the race.


Just one bad race from Lerenzo and all this speculation doesn't make much sense to me. BTW Dani is currently showing why he beat Casey last year on a same bike.

I agree with your conclusion about extrapolating from 1 bad race (in 3 seasons plus 4 races) for Lorenzo. As for your second conclusion, I will give you that (even though I think he beat Stoner in only 2 races before Stoner's injury) if you accept that 2010 and 2013 thus far prove that Lorenzo is better than Rossi for all time, and that rossi's performances on the Ducati vs Stoner's prove that Stoner is better than him for all time :smile3: .

 

[michaelm]

Mental Anarchist

3520121369171769

When I watch Lorenzo I see those things, the concentration, the focus.


 


I guess because Stoner was accused of only being good because of electronics (i.e. didn't deserve to win) is clouding this debate.  I am not suggesting what Lorenzo does is easy.  Because as said, if it was easy everyone would do it.  I will say it again, Lorenzo's whole career on bikes from a young age has been spent winning.  He did not become a winner over night.


 


Stoner and now Pedrosa have been fast by not using electronics.  That has been what worked for them.  In my opinion, from what I see is that Lorenzo's style is a result of his <u>successful use</u> of electronics.  This is obviously an incredible skill because no-one else is doing it.  If it was easy to do then everyone would be doing it.


 


The negatives, as I have stated previously are that from what I saw on the weekend when the set up, including electronics, is wrong his throttle control which is not a key part of his successful style is left wanting.  This is contrasted by Marquez.  Marquez started poorly but as the laps ticked down he <u>adapted</u> and carved through the field.  This did not happen to Lorenzo, he didn't adapt.  The number of times Lorenzo has got things wrong over the last few years is so small that it is hard to find other examples.


 


Why do I think this is an entirely possible proposition?  The teams are spending <u>massive</u> money on electronics.  They are not spending this money for it to sit in the back ground.  Go back to 2010 when Yamaha chose Lorenzo over Rossi.  A move that not even Rossi expected.  Did Yamaha make this choice because Lorenzo was developing what they were spending the most money on whilst Rossi was publicly condemning the use of it and those that allegedly relied on it?

No doubt both that Lorenzo runs amazingly consistent lap times, and that the current bikes have plentiful electronics which are produced at great expense, and your hypothesis encompasses these things, which is fair enough.


 


Where I and others would argue is using the one race in which he has not had podium pace for over 3 seasons as evidence rather than all the others, including wet races like Le Mans last year and Jerez 2011, although you (and I) might argue that factors external to Lorenzo affected the outcome of the latter race.

 

[inam22]

michaelm

3520251369184535



I agree with your conclusion about extrapolating from 1 bad race (in 3 seasons plus 4 races) for Lorenzo. As for your second conclusion, I will give you that (I think he beat Stoner in 2 races before Stoner's injury) if you accept that 2010 and 2013 thus far prove that Lorenzo is better than Rossi for all time, and that his performances on the Ducati vs Stoner's prove that Stoner is better than him for all time :smile3: .

Yeah i have no problem accepting that, IMO 2010&2012 Lorenzo was best and in 2007&2011 Casey was at his best same as Rossi was at his best in 2008&2009. Should have retired back then

 

[Dr No]

thedeal

3519831369141445

Mamola said Casey was the first of the "robot riders" who just open the throttle and let the electronics do the work, make of that what you will.

 


Ha. Didn't Rossi say something about a 'Playstation' generation?


I took a photo of his fuel tank in 2000, with a Playstation controller sticker on top near the bars. Ha.

 

[Keshav]

JohnnyKnockdown

3520131369171872

Like a spur of the moment off the cuff mark calling fellow riders who have busted their ... their entire life to become a professional racer and risk life and limb every weekend "clowns"

Be careful Steifel, Keshav called you a friend. The last person who had that honor is still pulling knives out of his back

Did you step away from the TV whilst in between "All My Children" and "As The World Turns" to pen this last post? Does washing dishes with Dove detergent really make your hands look as young as your daughter's?

 

[Keshav]

Kropotkin

3520191369175010

From what I understand, he is smooth in everything. His brake and throttle application are incredibly smooth, much smoother than Crutchlow can emulate. Crutchlow said an interesting thing after his crash at Jerez, he said he was feeling beat up, so when he went out for his quali lap, he wasn't trying. That was his fastest lap. Instead of trying to push the bike, he just let it flow, and was fast.


This, I believe, explains Ben Spies' failure on the Yamaha, and why he might yet come good on the Ducati. It will be too late by then, mind.


EDIT: I'll also ask at Mugello.

I've heard this said in almost those exact same words a number of time by different racers in similar circumstances. Pretty Zen-like.

 

[Keshav]

michaelm

3520251369184535

I agree with your conclusion about extrapolating from 1 bad race (in 3 seasons plus 4 races) for Lorenzo. As for your second conclusion, I will give you that (even though I think he beat Stoner in only 2 races before Stoner's injury) if you accept that 2010 and 2013 thus far prove that Lorenzo is better than Rossi for all time, and that rossi's performances on the Ducati vs Stoner's prove that Stoner is better than him for all time :smile3: .

 

[JohnnyKnockdown]

Keshav

3520331369191647

Did you step away from the TV whilst in between "All My Children" and "As The World Turns" to pen this last post? Does washing dishes with Dove detergent really make your hands look as young as your daughter's?

Is this more sage parenting advice from Keshav.  Give me some more. It worked so well for Rogers kids

 

[Dr No]

Mental Anarchist

3520171369173951

Thanks.  This is exactly what I am talking about.  I think Lorenzo's skill is that he doesn't try to "beat" this.  He uses it 100% to his advantage.  I suspect other riders try to beat it and therefore aren't as fast or able to use the lean angle that Lorenzo does because the hands is probably not as smooth as the electronics.

 


The problem is with your position (and the example provided by Krop of % throttle limits) is that you are still thinking in 'steady-state' terms.


There is no one throttle position or power setting (ref: your 83.243% power) for each corner. This is not much different from saying whack the throttle open and trust the ECU. There is a continual feedback loop based on many inputs. Why have a throttle anyway, eh?


 


The idea that Lorenzo is taking advantage of the electronics is undoubted, all riders do. Just because he has a different style to MM/DP doesn't mean more or less intervention, it just means a different set-up to take advantage of the Yamaha's characteristics over race distance. This is just as true for his chassis as much as his engine controls.


 


Personally, I think his high corner speed style is the riskier one in the wet. And is more difficult to set-up in the wet when your grip is half of what you have in the dry.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Dr No

3520431369200977

The problem is with your position (and the example provided by Krop of % throttle limits) is that you are still thinking in 'steady-state' terms.


There is no one throttle position or power setting (ref: your 83.243% power) for each corner. This is not much different from saying whack the throttle open and trust the ECU. There is a continual feedback loop based on many inputs. Why have a throttle anyway, eh?


 


The idea that Lorenzo is taking advantage of the electronics is undoubted, all riders do. Just because he has a different style to MM/DP doesn't mean more or less intervention, it just means a different set-up to take advantage of the Yamaha's characteristics over race distance. This is just as true for his chassis as much as his engine controls.


 


Personally, I think his high corner speed style is the riskier one in the wet. And is more difficult to set-up in the wet when your grip is half of what you have in the dry.

 


I appreciate what you are saying but the bolded bit above can't be true.  It is most likely true that the electronics on the Honda don't even work the same as those on the Yamaha.


 


I will extend by saying that I find it hard to believe that with many many millions spent on electronics over the past decade that every part of power delivery through every corner can't be controlled.  I am no engineer but I would be surprised that a gyro is not able to tell the ecu exactly what part of a corner the bike is in for example is it pre apex or post apex and I have no doubt it is learning with each lap through practice.


 


What we are talking about here is how much of the power delivery is being controlled by the rider.  Maybe Lorenzo is so good that he is able to control 100% of the power delivery in which case there is no need for electronics and a simple mechanical connection between the throttle and the throttle bodies is all that is required.  Or on the other end of the spectrum all Lorenzo needs to do is crack the throttle at the correct moment in the corner and the ecu delivers a progressive amount of predetermined power based on lean angle right through to 100% power as he reaches a certain almost upright angle.


 


My proposition is that Lorenzo and his team have found a way to maximise the ecu's delivery of this power so that Lorenzo only needs to worry about the dynamic of his body position, bike position and trajectory into and out of the corner with the ecu delivering the exact amount of power at exactly the right time to get maximum drive for that corner on that lap.  The result being metronomic delivery of lap times.


 


If I am correct then I think it is a massive advancement in the electronic development of a motorcycle and its application through a 20+ lap race.

 

[Dr No]

So... I could swap hands with him and he'd still be as fast.... ok.


What does his crew do on the weekends?

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Dr No

3520471369211218

So... I could swap hands with him and he'd still be as fast.... ok.

What does his crew do on the weekends?

Sorry, but you obviously not understanding the discussion if that is your question. When you do understand and then respond with a reasonable question or opinion I am happy to respond.

 

[Dr No]

Mental Anarchist

3520491369214288

Sorry, but you obviously not understanding the discussion if that is your question. When you do understand and then respond with a reasonable question or opinion I am happy to respond.

 


Easy: which comes first, mechanical grip or that given by traction control?


Here's something to ponder based on the above question, what can electronics do about the front wheel's traction?


 


No need to confuse the issue with accusations of not understanding. I largely agree with your premise of his riding style, I just disagree with the manner in which you assume he obtains it.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Dr No

3520511369217953

 

Easy: which comes first, mechanical grip or that given by traction control?

 

No need to confuse the issue with accusations of not understanding. I largely agree with your premise of his riding style, I just disagree with the manner in which you assume he obtains it.

I have been quite specific in my opinion that it comes from exceptional team work. Yet you made the implication that I am suggesting his team does nothing. Explain your comment if that is not what you implied.

 

[Dr No]

<p style="margin-left:40px;MA, with all respect:
<p style="margin-left:40px;How does teamwork = mechanical grip? And further, how does mechanical grip influence what 'the electronics' might need to do?
<p style="margin-left:40px;Do you accept that mechanical grip might just come first, that 'the electronics' mean nothing without optimising what goes on between tyre and tarmac?
<p style="margin-left:40px;Go back and answer post #114 if you'd like to continue this. Otherwise it's just you being belligerent.

 

[Keshav]

JohnnyKnockdown

3520371369192516

Is this more sage parenting advice from Keshav.  Give me some more. It worked so well for Rogers kids

If you had any idea what you were talking about - everything out of your mouth would still be a non-sequitur gaff. Keep sending up those lead balloons. Seriously... do you ever have any idea what it is you're talking about... on any given subject? Seem like your only purpose here on PS is to alienate each and every member one at a time. Keep up the good work.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Dr No

3520531369219267

<p style="margin-left:40px;MA, with all respect:
<p style="margin-left:40px;How does teamwork = mechanical grip? And further, how does mechanical grip influence what 'the electronics' might need to do?
<p style="margin-left:40px;Do you accept that mechanical grip might just come first, that 'the electronics' mean nothing without optimising what goes on between tyre and tarmac?
<p style="margin-left:40px;Go back and answer post #114 if you'd like to continue this. Otherwise it's just you being belligerent.

I am not sure the relevance on the conversation of post 114. I am not sure what planet you think I am on but I am fully aware of the mechanical set up and it's importance. By your questioning it is clear that you take me for some kind of ..... who stares at a TV screen and watches colourful bikes go round a bitumen road. I can assure you i am far from it. But once again that has no influence on the discussion as it is well after this happens that the topic of this conversation takes place.

 

[thedeal]

Bridgestone say there was no problem with the tyre.