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LeMans 2013 Race Thread

Keshav
3520341369192062

I've heard this said in almost those exact same words a number of time by different racers in similar circumstances. Pretty Zen-like.


Most memorably Rainey, who described a particular race at Suzuka from the perspective as an observer - looking down on himself - watching himself ride.


 


I suspect a similar phenomena explains Barry's transcendent cornering technique; being able to slide the bike through 'out of' body position alone.
 
Keshav
3520541369219855

If you had any idea what you were talking about - everything out of your mouth would still be a non-sequitur gaff. Keep sending up those lead balloons. Seriously... do you ever have any idea what it is you're talking about... on any given subject? Seem like your only purpose here on PS is to alienate each and every member one at a time. Keep up the good work.


And to dig around and find old arguments and reignite them for his own pleasure.
 
Mental Anarchist
3520561369220475

I am not sure the relevance on the conversation of post 114. I am not sure what planet you think I am on but I am fully aware of the mechanical set up and it's importance. By your questioning it is clear that you take me for some kind of ..... who stares at a TV screen and watches colourful bikes go round a bitumen road. I can assure you i am far from it. But once again that has no influence on the discussion as it is well after this happens that the topic of this conversation takes place.


 


 


Not at all, MA. Seriously.


I'm not just blasting out responses to get a reaction, I'm just trying to get to the crux of the matter. It's an interesting topic and is well worth further discussion. Far better than V(irginal) S(plit) G(usset) discussions at any rate.
 
Arrabbiata1
3520601369221069

Most memorably Rainey, who described a particular race at Suzuka from the perspective as an observer - looking down on himself - watching himself ride.


 


I suspect a similar phenomena explains Barry's transcendent cornering technique; being able to slide the bike through 'out of' body position alone.


 


I don't recall that from Rainey. I do recall that from Senna. But that was likely to have been some sort of X-tian out of body experience.


But you're correct on BM, transcendental riding styles have no need to listen to physics.
 
inam
3520281369188401

Yeah i have no problem accepting that, IMO 2010&2012 Lorenzo was best and in 2007&2011 Casey was at his best same as Rossi was at his best in 2008&2009. Should have retired back then :)


Wasn't really being serious.


 


Pretty well everyone who wins a world championship deserves to do so as far as I am concerned, except perhaps on rare occasions such as that one particular 250 championship win by Capirossi. If Dani wins the 2013 championship it will be very creditable, even more so in view of what he has been through in his premier class career injury-wise. I don't give him too much credit for beating an injured Stoner last year given that he still didn't actually win the championship though.


 


Rossi is still better than Stoner overall whatever happens now, and I don't think Jorge is going to challenge Valentino in terms of an overall career either.
 
Keshav
3520351369192356

michaelm
3520251369184535


I agree with your conclusion about extrapolating from 1 bad race (in 3 seasons plus 4 races) for Lorenzo. As for your second conclusion, I will give you that (even though I think he beat Stoner in only 2 races before Stoner's injury) if you accept that 2010 and 2013 thus far prove that Lorenzo is better than Rossi for all time, and that rossi's performances on the Ducati vs Stoner's prove that Stoner is better than him for all time :smile3: .


Actually looks a little like me in my youth.
 
Mental Anarchist
3520461369209844

What we are talking about here is how much of the power delivery is being controlled by the rider.  Maybe Lorenzo is so good that he is able to control 100% of the power delivery in which case there is no need for electronics and a simple mechanical connection between the throttle and the throttle bodies is all that is required.  Or on the other end of the spectrum all Lorenzo needs to do is crack the throttle at the correct moment in the corner and the ecu delivers a progressive amount of predetermined power based on lean angle right through to 100% power as he reaches a certain almost upright angle.
I fear you are making exactly the same assumptions as people used to do about Stoner, especially as, in my opinion, you are placing too much credence in the throttle trace shown on TV. I heard a lot of people - even some intelligent people - say that they saw Stoner just crack the throttle and the bike would take off. That is exactly what he did, but he would crack the throttle to 91%, exactly the point in a particular corner where the amount of horsepower on offer would match the available grip, then feed the last 9% in smoothly to extract maximum drive. On TV, and from trackside, it looks like he just went BANG! Straight to full throttle. Ask Hayden about it, and he would say that Stoner's throttle management, especially in the last 8 or 9%, was beyond anything he could manage, or had ever seen. I suspect that Lorenzo is doing something very similar to what Stoner did, but his Rainey-like smoothness makes it look a lot less dramatic.
 
Dr No
3520651369222135

 

 

Not at all, MA. Seriously.

I'm not just blasting out responses to get a reaction, I'm just trying to get to the crux of the matter. It's an interesting topic and is well worth further discussion. Far better than V(irginal) S(plit) G(usset) discussions at any rate.


Ok.


Lets say that to win a championship you need to win a certain number of races and podium the rest. To win a race you have to complete it within a known time frame (last years race time less say 20sec). You can then break it down to a lap time. If all that is achieved then in this era you will, with a high likelihood win the race.


To achieve a lap time and race time it is a simple case of managing the physics of all the aspects of a motorcycle. The point at which a motorcycle can't go any fast or lean any further in a corner I assume is a known, plus a small variable,for inconsistencies in tyre, temperature, set up etc.


Now to the big variable. The rider. The rider is a big inconsistent variable. They have differing emotion and physical capabilities from one day to the next, they change their body position, race line, brake point, throttle application etc marginally every lap. Most importantly their focus is limited which then has an impact on how many things they can get as close to perfect each lap for 20 odd laps.


So what can a team do to perfect these variables that the rider brings to the table? Emotions and physical fitness can be managed to a degree. Race lines can be monitored and tweaked during debrief sessions as can brake markers and acceleration points. But the bike can't be steered by the crew in the pits nor can the point the brakes are applied or the throttle cracked.


So what can be done by the crew in the pits? The mechanical grip and therefore the physics of maximum speed, the engine braking into the corner and the power delivery out of the corner. Of course these things can be left up to the rider to manage in their entirety or they can be heavily managed by the electronics. The benefit of managing the power delivery by electronics is that the electronics can be programmed to deliver the perfect amount that physics allows for the mechanical set up of the bike and the precision of the rider as they hit lines, brake points and acceleration points.


So, if the amount of power delivered is taken out of the riders hands then the rider no longer has to focus on this and the available brain power can be split up amongst the fewer remaining tasks which can now be delivered even more precisely for longer resulting in greater consistency over more laps.


It is widely accepted that Lorenzo is supremely focused. He hits his marks every lap, his body movement on the bike is smooth and he does this lap after lap after lap. So is he also, every lap achieving perfect braking and perfect acceleration or are these things being heavily managed so as to leave him free to concentrate on those things that only he, the rider, can do? Thus giving him and the team an almost guaranteed lap time, race time, number of race wins and podiums and ultimately the world championship.


This is what I am suggesting. I believe that Yamaha, Lorenzo's crew and Lorenzo have unlocked a system that removes variables and virtually guarantees the World Championship as long as they can get the bike in the window of the limit of physics.
 
To me, all the talk about TC and acceleration is pointless. Opening the throttle is the easy part, lots of riders can get good at that. It's braking from 360kph with the rear wheel in the air then pushing the front so hard through the middle of a turn that the tyre deforms and the chassis 'chatters' that impresses me. That's the bit us mortals will never be able to do.
 
Mental Anarchist
3520751369225962

Ok.


Lets say that to win a championship you need to win a certain number of races and podium the rest. To win a race you have to complete it within a known time frame (last years race time less say 20sec). You can then break it down to a lap time. If all that is achieved then in this era you will, with a high likelihood win the race.


To achieve a lap time and race time it is a simple case of managing the physics of all the aspects of a motorcycle. The point at which a motorcycle can't go any fast or lean any further in a corner I assume is a known, plus a small variable,for inconsistencies in tyre, temperature, set up etc.


Now to the big variable. The rider. The rider is a big inconsistent variable. They have differing emotion and physical capabilities from one day to the next, they change their body position, race line, brake point, throttle application etc marginally every lap. Most importantly their focus is limited which then has an impact on how many things they can get as close to perfect each lap for 20 odd laps.


So what can a team do to perfect these variables that the rider brings to the table? Emotions and physical fitness can be managed to a degree. Race lines can be monitored and tweaked during debrief sessions as can brake markers and acceleration points. But the bike can't be steered by the crew in the pits nor can the point the brakes are applied or the throttle cracked.


So what can be done by the crew in the pits? The mechanical grip and therefore the physics of maximum speed, the engine braking into the corner and the power delivery out of the corner. Of course these things can be left up to the rider to manage in their entirety or they can be heavily managed by the electronics. The benefit of managing the power delivery by electronics is that the electronics can be programmed to deliver the perfect amount that physics allows for the mechanical set up of the bike and the precision of the rider as they hit lines, brake points and acceleration points.


So, if the amount of power delivered is taken out of the riders hands then the rider no longer has to focus on this and the available brain power can be split up amongst the fewer remaining tasks which can now be delivered even more precisely for longer resulting in greater consistency over more laps.


It is widely accepted that Lorenzo is supremely focused. He hits his marks every lap, his body movement on the bike is smooth and he does this lap after lap after lap. So is he also, every lap achieving perfect braking and perfect acceleration or are these things being heavily managed so as to leave him free to concentrate on those things that only he, the rider, can do? Thus giving him and the team an almost guaranteed lap time, race time, number of race wins and podiums and ultimately the world championship.


This is what I am suggesting. I believe that Yamaha, Lorenzo's crew and Lorenzo have unlocked a system that removes variables and virtually guarantees the World Championship as long as they can get the bike in the window of the limit of physics.


Forcada in an interview I found last night says the opposite to this, but I guess from the point of view of your hypothesis perhaps he would say that. He cites an example of when Jorge was on a worn michelin tyre and rode 10 very consistent laps which led michelin to draw conclusions about the tyre's durability; Forcada claims he adjusted his riding each lap to compensate for the deteriorating tyre.
 
thedeal
3520611369221077

And to dig around and find old arguments and reignite them for his own pleasure.
Haha. Keshav and his army of Aussie syncopants, the same ones who defended Zoot

I guess tirelessly defending Stoner has its benefits.

What Keshav refuses to acknowledge is is that my comments are based on whats been told to me by MORE then 1 person who spent a weekend with him.

Im trying to do the guy a favor. Hes needs to recognize hes a ..... The 1st step addick must take in the road to recovery is admit they are a an addick. His addicktion is more serious then that of a crackhead ,methhead or pot head. Hes a certified ......... Comon Keshav. I believe in you. Please recognize your addicktion. Stand up and say to everybody, "Hi my name is Keshav. I am a .... I have been a .... for 60 years." That is the first step. The next step is getting rid of your .... enablers. You must cut your buddies zoot, deal and Dr No out of your life. Their nothing but peddlers of .... and will suck you back into that terrible world.
 
michaelm
3520771369226698

Forcada in an interview I found last night says the opposite to this, but I guess from the point of view of your hypothesis perhaps he would say that. He cites an example of when Jorge was on a worn michelin tyre and rode 10 very consistent laps which led michelin to draw conclusions about the tyre's durability; Forcada claims he adjusted his riding each lap to compensate for the deteriorating tyre.


I am quite happy to accept I could be completely wrong. I am also completely confident that Focada will not give away their secret and will deflect at every opportunity.
 
Dr No
3520721369224009

Dear Krop,
Where the .... do those traces come from?
Regards,
J. No.
Good question. Shall try to find out. I believe they come from the data acquisition systems, but I have no idea whether the data is modified fractionally. What is obvious is that even if it was dead accurate, seeing the difference between 92 and 93% throttle is completely impossible.
 
 <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1369236245
352083" data-author="Kropotkin

Good question. Shall try to find out. I believe they come from the data acquisition systems, but I have no idea whether the data is modified fractionally. What is obvious is that even if it was dead accurate, seeing the difference between 92 and 93% throttle is completely impossible.
 
Sjeez, looks like you have an entire shopping-list of powerslide-questions for next race. We don't have to pay you, do we?
 
stiefel
3520841369239727

Sjeez, looks like you have an entire shopping-list of powerslide-questions for next race. We don't have to pay you, do we?
You can pay me in kind if you like. Always on the lookout for fresh meat.
 
Kropotkin
3520901369245648

You can pay me in kind if you like. Always on the lookout for fresh meat.


I would offer to drop be your house with a honey-glaced ham, if I were not unsure if "fresh meat" is not slang for my sweet tushy.
 
JohnnyKnockdown
3520781369227053

Haha. Keshav and his army of Aussie syncopants, the same ones who defended Zoot

I guess tirelessly defending Stoner has its benefits.

What Keshav refuses to acknowledge is is that my comments are based on whats been told to me by MORE then 1 person who spent a weekend with him.

Im trying to do the guy a favor. Hes needs to recognize hes a ..... The 1st step addick must take in the road to recovery is admit they are a an addick. His addicktion is more serious then that of a crackhead ,methhead or pot head. Hes a certified ......... Comon Keshav. I believe in you. Please recognize your addicktion. Stand up and say to everybody, "Hi my name is Keshav. I am a .... I have been a .... for 60 years." That is the first step. The next step is getting rid of your .... enablers. You must cut your buddies zoot, deal and Dr No out of your life. Their nothing but peddlers of .... and will suck you back into that terrible world.


 


So now you're bringing nationalism to the table. What I take away from your post, is that Aussies all think alike and are under my power; incapable of reasoning for themselves, unable to discern who is a schmuck and who isn't. Is that pretty much it?


 


And as far as what was said between Rog and me.... there is nobody here who was privy to that conversation, so there is nobody on this forum who can truthfully tell you what transpired. After our argument, Rog made inflated claims and the kind of vile threats that only a coward and a bully (a very dishonest bully) could make; and he was exposed for the fraud he is. Incapable of admitting wrong-doing, embarrassed at being caught out, with no way to save face, he stopped posting here. I'm told (by his best buddy) that a large part of why he hasn't returned is that he hates Australians and feels they've ruined Power Slide. Ha! So aside from being obtuse, drama-queen dimwits who are never wrong - you and Rog have something else in common. You're both bigots.
 
Keshav
3520941369248413

 

So now you're bringing nationalism to the table. What I take away from your post, is that Aussies all think alike and are under my power; incapable of reasoning for themselves, unable to discern who is a schmuck and who isn't. Is that pretty much it?

 

And as far as what was said between Rog and me.... there is nobody here who was privy to that conversation, so there is nobody on this forum who can truthfully tell you what transpired. After our argument, Rog made inflated claims and the kind of vile threats that only a coward and a bully (a very dishonest bully) could make; and he was exposed for the fraud he is. Incapable of admitting wrong-doing, embarrassed at being caught out, with no way to save face, he stopped posting here. I'm told (by his best buddy) that a large part of why he hasn't returned is that he hates Australians and feels they've ruined Power Slide. Ha! So aside from being obtuse, drama-queen dimwits who are never wrong - you and Rog have something else in common. You're both bigots.


You figured me out. Yes its true. I am a bigot. I wish that island full of criminals and bums would sink. I deal with them everyday. They are loud and obnoxious. They have an international reputation of being rude and callous. They only care for themselves. Their an embarassment but dont even know it. They tell everyone things are better where their from and everything we do is done the wrong way. They all wear too much jewelry and too much cologne. And their accent. God! who can understand that gobbly goo. Everyone hates them and wishes they would go away but they keep coming. Those ....... New Yorkers are the worst!!
 

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