Is now the time to march Dani to the gallows?
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Sloth_27
Tell you what, put those americans on the Spaniards bikes and lets see what happens. I think you had better get some sauce to eat your words. Too many Spaniards regardless. We need more riders from elsewhere other than Spain. It is just over done to the point people are started to care less about GP and it's Spanish influx of riders. Sorry bud, just the facts.
Tell you what, put those americans on the Spaniards bikes and lets see what happens. I think you had better get some sauce to eat your words. Too many Spaniards regardless. We need more riders from elsewhere other than Spain. It is just over done to the point people are started to care less about GP and it's Spanish influx of riders. Sorry bud, just the facts.
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And yes, the Spanish do produce some great riders. Problem is that if this is supposed to be a World Championship, it is getting thin on the "world" part. No disrespect towards those guys, yeah they bust their butts to ride and their country subsidizes their training and careers, lol. I personally would like to see more bikes on the grid with a more diverse field of riders. They are talking about extending the season into other countries. It is only befitting that they get some riders from those regions somehow to help promote the sport. It is also just good marketing. Bottom line, they don't need to do any better marketing it to the Spanish. But if they want to grow the sport, and you have a clue about marketing and how it works, the psychology, oh and just the ability to communicate in your native tongue...I mean the list goes on. I just want to see the sport grow.
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thedeal
Ahh no... Nicky was on the Pedrosa made bike after he was the champ. Easy to see it, easy to read all there is about that bike and what they tried to do in order to shoe horn Nicky on the thing. Pedrosa...no championsip even though they changed the rules and the bikes for him lolol. Look, you have your opinion, but it is real easy to say that cause they are on the best bikes bar none. All the rest...yeah ok. So say what you want, live the fantasy dream what have you. The bottom line is there is enough to show that there is not much between them if they are all about on the same stuff.
Ahh no... Nicky was on the Pedrosa made bike after he was the champ. Easy to see it, easy to read all there is about that bike and what they tried to do in order to shoe horn Nicky on the thing. Pedrosa...no championsip even though they changed the rules and the bikes for him lolol. Look, you have your opinion, but it is real easy to say that cause they are on the best bikes bar none. All the rest...yeah ok. So say what you want, live the fantasy dream what have you. The bottom line is there is enough to show that there is not much between them if they are all about on the same stuff.
ROCKGOD01
Ben and Colin had factory Yamahas, what's your ........ reason for them not winning then. Fantasy dream? the only fantasy here is you believing Nicky, Colin or Ben could live with Mark or Jorge, really that's a fantastic story, you should be on stage,,,, sweeping it.
Ben and Colin had factory Yamahas, what's your ........ reason for them not winning then. Fantasy dream? the only fantasy here is you believing Nicky, Colin or Ben could live with Mark or Jorge, really that's a fantastic story, you should be on stage,,,, sweeping it.
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Little hard to compare, I think it's safe to say Colin is past his prime, Nicky as well as much as I hate to say it, and Ben, well that's another story altogether. I think the best comparison is to view Rossi and his finishes this year, that should give you an indication of how well Nicky might do.
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thedeal
LOL, ok, how many factory bikes in the past umpteen years have had the deep six issues Ben had when he was with Yamaha? uh huh.... Just to bring in Rossi. It's easy to say what you want and put blame here and there sure, but come on, that year was complete BS for Ben. So then let's look at Colin. He was Rossi's teammate, and he knew he was never going to have a fair shake regardless. He was the number two rider and he wouldn't be able to have the same stuff Rossi did. However for his time, he didn't do horrible either. He almost had a win. Poor colin. Now Yeah Nicky. Had he been given the proper treatment at Honda and Danyelle not been brought into the team as the Messiah, Nicky would have had another real good shot at the title. Not saying he would have won it hands down, but I don't doubt for a bit he would either be number one or two that next several years. So, again, the Spanish are given the red carpet treatment. The only other to have that is Rossi. Other than that, the all basically get told to go pound sand.
LOL, ok, how many factory bikes in the past umpteen years have had the deep six issues Ben had when he was with Yamaha? uh huh.... Just to bring in Rossi. It's easy to say what you want and put blame here and there sure, but come on, that year was complete BS for Ben. So then let's look at Colin. He was Rossi's teammate, and he knew he was never going to have a fair shake regardless. He was the number two rider and he wouldn't be able to have the same stuff Rossi did. However for his time, he didn't do horrible either. He almost had a win. Poor colin. Now Yeah Nicky. Had he been given the proper treatment at Honda and Danyelle not been brought into the team as the Messiah, Nicky would have had another real good shot at the title. Not saying he would have won it hands down, but I don't doubt for a bit he would either be number one or two that next several years. So, again, the Spanish are given the red carpet treatment. The only other to have that is Rossi. Other than that, the all basically get told to go pound sand.
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I don't think we'll see another American title for a while. Unless somebody comes out of nowhere from AMA or some dirt championship... There's no Americans anywhere in the world championships that I think could win. Ben Spies is broken and I don't think he'll ever regain his confidence, and definitely won't be winning on the Duck...
Hayden had his shot
Edwards had his shot
Even if you gave all 3 of them a factory honda/yamaha, they wouldn't be able to match Marquez, Lorenzo or Pedrosa.
You guys like to .... all over Pedrosa but he is a really strong contender. He's been so close to titles only to be injured and out of the running. You guys act like he doesn't deserve his ride, but really, with the amount of podiums, wins, other class titles, it's just downright idiotic to say he doesn't deserve his seat. Just because he hasn't won a title. Nicky won a title by sheer luck and you guys are all over his .....
Hayden had his shot
Edwards had his shot
Even if you gave all 3 of them a factory honda/yamaha, they wouldn't be able to match Marquez, Lorenzo or Pedrosa.
You guys like to .... all over Pedrosa but he is a really strong contender. He's been so close to titles only to be injured and out of the running. You guys act like he doesn't deserve his ride, but really, with the amount of podiums, wins, other class titles, it's just downright idiotic to say he doesn't deserve his seat. Just because he hasn't won a title. Nicky won a title by sheer luck and you guys are all over his .....
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elitemafia
Elite, the problem with the argument is this notion of "deserve". Who deserves what? What does a "champion" or a rider "deserve"? (I'm assuming you are just looking at "results" without analysis to calculate this "deserve" factor, as you premise is to site Pedro's results.) Did Pedro "deserve" his own personal bike when his teammate was the actual "champion"? Did Rossi "deserve" to be awarded one of the only 4 win worthy bikes after finishing so poorly in the standings (that is results, right)? Did Stoner deserve for the league to effectively take away the tires relationship he had with his manufacture when he became the Ducati champion? Does P.Espargaro "deserve" a factory contract to ride a prototype when the champion elect is going to a CRT/Prody? Keep in mind Crutchlow was in affect made to leave Tech3 to make room for P.Espargaro, and gues where Cal's "results" are destined to be next year. Do the champions of their class "deserve" to be relegated to the back step respective of the riders they beat?
Agree about not having any American champions, but that is not because there isn't the talent, rather its because the series is hell bent on maintaining the Spanish GP welfare state. Salom and Zarco will be in Moto2 next year, the Frenchman was a champ, while the the Spaniard was a runners up to an American named JD Beach. Both the Zarco and Salom will probably do well in the series, certainly the Spaniard Salom can have something to celebrate as it was just announced he was signed to a Moto2 team. The American that beat him? Well he is battling with another Rookies Cup champ named Jacob Gange, both of these are being beat routinely (but just barely) by a lad named Cameron Beaubier. Dorna will continue to feed you their riders and you will continue to think they are the best, when the reality they simply are force-fed the opportunities to the world stage.
Elite, the problem with the argument is this notion of "deserve". Who deserves what? What does a "champion" or a rider "deserve"? (I'm assuming you are just looking at "results" without analysis to calculate this "deserve" factor, as you premise is to site Pedro's results.) Did Pedro "deserve" his own personal bike when his teammate was the actual "champion"? Did Rossi "deserve" to be awarded one of the only 4 win worthy bikes after finishing so poorly in the standings (that is results, right)? Did Stoner deserve for the league to effectively take away the tires relationship he had with his manufacture when he became the Ducati champion? Does P.Espargaro "deserve" a factory contract to ride a prototype when the champion elect is going to a CRT/Prody? Keep in mind Crutchlow was in affect made to leave Tech3 to make room for P.Espargaro, and gues where Cal's "results" are destined to be next year. Do the champions of their class "deserve" to be relegated to the back step respective of the riders they beat?
Agree about not having any American champions, but that is not because there isn't the talent, rather its because the series is hell bent on maintaining the Spanish GP welfare state. Salom and Zarco will be in Moto2 next year, the Frenchman was a champ, while the the Spaniard was a runners up to an American named JD Beach. Both the Zarco and Salom will probably do well in the series, certainly the Spaniard Salom can have something to celebrate as it was just announced he was signed to a Moto2 team. The American that beat him? Well he is battling with another Rookies Cup champ named Jacob Gange, both of these are being beat routinely (but just barely) by a lad named Cameron Beaubier. Dorna will continue to feed you their riders and you will continue to think they are the best, when the reality they simply are force-fed the opportunities to the world stage.
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ROCKGOD01
You are delusional.
Edwards had a Factory bike and never won a race. He is about 49 years old I think, and realistically Marquez could beat him on a Moto2 bike.
Spies had a Factory bike and regularly smashed it and himself to pieces. His team couldn't keep up with the repairs jobs and subsequently the bike broke a few times. He got sacked and sent to Ducati and proceeded to continue this form by a factor of 10.
I rate Hayden well above both of them and as others have said, he would probably be running about the same as Rossi on a better bike. Occasional podiums and lots of top 5's, but not championship contender at this late stage in his career.
You are delusional.
Edwards had a Factory bike and never won a race. He is about 49 years old I think, and realistically Marquez could beat him on a Moto2 bike.
Spies had a Factory bike and regularly smashed it and himself to pieces. His team couldn't keep up with the repairs jobs and subsequently the bike broke a few times. He got sacked and sent to Ducati and proceeded to continue this form by a factor of 10.
I rate Hayden well above both of them and as others have said, he would probably be running about the same as Rossi on a better bike. Occasional podiums and lots of top 5's, but not championship contender at this late stage in his career.
Jumkie, I understand how you find it unfair for Salom and Vinales to be heading up to Moto 2 and decent Americans not making it on their own sporting merrit. The owner of the team that is bringing the two up is Pons, a Spaniard who owns the team. A team owner that has reasons to want Spanish riders. Language, publicity, and helping out a fellow countryman are just a few good reasons. If I was in a position such as Pons, team owning world champion, I would definitely try to hep out a fellow Minnesotan or Aragones. I am sure you would do the same for Benito.
Benito would be good for you as a fellow country man, from California, that would be great in the local public eye. There is a saying in Spanish, "se barre pa casa" which literally means to sweep towards one's house. Everyone, not just Spaniards do this.
Benito would be good for you as a fellow country man, from California, that would be great in the local public eye. There is a saying in Spanish, "se barre pa casa" which literally means to sweep towards one's house. Everyone, not just Spaniards do this.
Jumkie
I don't believe it is as simple as Dorna being Spanish and favouring Spanish riders Jumkie. Part of the "problem" is that they are venture capitalists with a marginally profitable business, likely to give them a preference for a marketable rider winning; I don't think they necessarily require that rider to be Spanish, although Spain is obviously a lucrative market, and think they would have been delighted for Valentino to return to his pomp or for a non-Spanish rider of similar charisma and ability to arise.
As well as the passion for the sport and participation rate in Spain, there is the Spanish ownership of junior class teams as Baturro has pointed out, and even more so imo the influence of sponsorship, with Repsol obviously Spanish and other Spanish companies also prominent like Fortuna who sponsored Jorge in his 250 days, and Telefonica in the past, when there is a dearth of other sponsors in the wake of the GFC and end of tobacco advertising. Certainly Australian companies show no inclination to sponsor Australian riders.
In terms of the sport being international and prospering internationally, I agree there are problems including the Spanish preponderance. The MSMA shouldn't have been allowed to develop a formula which is inordinately expensive and results in a maximum of four bikes with a winning chance as you say, and FIM shouldn't have completely abrogated responsibility for the sport internationally to a bunch of venture capitalists who now own both the major international series. I am sure Dorna would like the riders participating (if not necessarily the riders winning) to be more international, and have tried to foster this, including Casey Stoner initially, but there is not much prospect of them being able to do such things as better integrate national series with the international formulae. Having better formulae for the international series in the first place would help of course as I have said. The EU bureaucrat who forced the sale of GP bike racing to Dorna, apparently for ideological reasons, probably bears the most responsibility as Lex has argued. The sport was prospering under its previous ownership, being run by motorsport guys and with significant synergy with F1.
Independent of this, I believe Jorge is a great rider even in historical terms, and MM is likely to become one, although as we agree one who got lenient treatment in his junior class days.
I admittedly have difficulty producing a rational explanation for Espargaro getting the Yamaha ride, although I found David Emmett credible when he said this was not something Dorna wanted. A sponsorship angle is one possible explanation not involving a conspiracy, given Yamaha's continuing lack of sponsorship even with Valentino's return. I certainly don't think Pol is of the calibre of Ben Spies before incompetence by his team and injury took away Ben's mojo, and I will be checking my immediate vicinity for flying pigs if Pol ever wins a premier class world championship as Nicky did.
I don't believe it is as simple as Dorna being Spanish and favouring Spanish riders Jumkie. Part of the "problem" is that they are venture capitalists with a marginally profitable business, likely to give them a preference for a marketable rider winning; I don't think they necessarily require that rider to be Spanish, although Spain is obviously a lucrative market, and think they would have been delighted for Valentino to return to his pomp or for a non-Spanish rider of similar charisma and ability to arise.
As well as the passion for the sport and participation rate in Spain, there is the Spanish ownership of junior class teams as Baturro has pointed out, and even more so imo the influence of sponsorship, with Repsol obviously Spanish and other Spanish companies also prominent like Fortuna who sponsored Jorge in his 250 days, and Telefonica in the past, when there is a dearth of other sponsors in the wake of the GFC and end of tobacco advertising. Certainly Australian companies show no inclination to sponsor Australian riders.
In terms of the sport being international and prospering internationally, I agree there are problems including the Spanish preponderance. The MSMA shouldn't have been allowed to develop a formula which is inordinately expensive and results in a maximum of four bikes with a winning chance as you say, and FIM shouldn't have completely abrogated responsibility for the sport internationally to a bunch of venture capitalists who now own both the major international series. I am sure Dorna would like the riders participating (if not necessarily the riders winning) to be more international, and have tried to foster this, including Casey Stoner initially, but there is not much prospect of them being able to do such things as better integrate national series with the international formulae. Having better formulae for the international series in the first place would help of course as I have said. The EU bureaucrat who forced the sale of GP bike racing to Dorna, apparently for ideological reasons, probably bears the most responsibility as Lex has argued. The sport was prospering under its previous ownership, being run by motorsport guys and with significant synergy with F1.
Independent of this, I believe Jorge is a great rider even in historical terms, and MM is likely to become one, although as we agree one who got lenient treatment in his junior class days.
I admittedly have difficulty producing a rational explanation for Espargaro getting the Yamaha ride, although I found David Emmett credible when he said this was not something Dorna wanted. A sponsorship angle is one possible explanation not involving a conspiracy, given Yamaha's continuing lack of sponsorship even with Valentino's return. I certainly don't think Pol is of the calibre of Ben Spies before incompetence by his team and injury took away Ben's mojo, and I will be checking my immediate vicinity for flying pigs if Pol ever wins a premier class world championship as Nicky did.
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Mike, U dont think Dorna manipulate the seats? Kindly explain VRs 'subsidized' entry. That is one we know about (imagine the ones we dont). Kropo reporting Dorna were not happy that Yamaha signed Espargaro suggests they have (vr) and can manipulate seats! Dorna theoretically have no business caring about who the teams see fit to sign, that they were pissed about this high profile signing indicates somebody went against their wishes; to me this points to the obvious, that they have influenced the process in other cases.
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Jumkie
I think what he means is that they don't push Spanish riders because they are Spanish, but because they are more marketable/profitable for Dorna. Basically, being venture capitalists they couldn't give a .... about the nationality of the riders, just how much money they can bring.
For example, if all the money was coming from US riders, Dorna would be perfectly happy to fill the grid with them.
Whereas I think you are suggesting Dorna like Spanish riders just so MotoGP can be one big Spanish family.
Of course Dorna can influence seats, they are a major stakeholder. It's no different to the way riders, agents, team managers, owners, sponsors, et al. can influence seats. The question is more about how much influence each party has.
I think what he means is that they don't push Spanish riders because they are Spanish, but because they are more marketable/profitable for Dorna. Basically, being venture capitalists they couldn't give a .... about the nationality of the riders, just how much money they can bring.
For example, if all the money was coming from US riders, Dorna would be perfectly happy to fill the grid with them.
Whereas I think you are suggesting Dorna like Spanish riders just so MotoGP can be one big Spanish family.
Of course Dorna can influence seats, they are a major stakeholder. It's no different to the way riders, agents, team managers, owners, sponsors, et al. can influence seats. The question is more about how much influence each party has.
Jumkie
Sure I think they influence things, I have at times (perhaps unsurprisingly given my obvious bias) surpassed you in the strength of my views regarding them being anti-Stoner.
My point was more what Sloth said, that imo Dorna's interests are much more financial than they are patriotic/nationalistic. For instance, I think Repsol want a Spanish rider to win the world championship, whereas Honda just want to win the championship period whilst being happy to take Repsol's money, and Dorna wants a charismatic and popular rider winning the championship. I think MM being Spanish was fairly peripheral to Honda and Dorna contriving the HRC ride for him, if not so much Repsol who were already sponsoring him. It would also seem very likely Repsol and Puig have influenced Dani's length of tenure at HRC and his treatment during that tenure, but I doubt Dorna has had much if any involvement in regard to Dani.
As we have debated at length, having the owners of the media rights to a sport running the sport isn't imo a good model for running an international sport or even a traditional local sport, given all the amateur participation and volunteer work underpinning most such sports, and I don't think allows overall planning for the sport in general and such things as regularising national series. I am sure Dorna themselves realise that more international participation would improve the bottom line, but even if they were more competent I don't see much in the way of methods for them to achieve this, other than actively promoting international riders which they have tried to do to some extent. If the FIM were more in charge, or at least motorsport guys of some variety, there would probably also be more chance of keeping the manufacturers in line as the previous owners of WSBK did to an extent.
Sure I think they influence things, I have at times (perhaps unsurprisingly given my obvious bias) surpassed you in the strength of my views regarding them being anti-Stoner.
My point was more what Sloth said, that imo Dorna's interests are much more financial than they are patriotic/nationalistic. For instance, I think Repsol want a Spanish rider to win the world championship, whereas Honda just want to win the championship period whilst being happy to take Repsol's money, and Dorna wants a charismatic and popular rider winning the championship. I think MM being Spanish was fairly peripheral to Honda and Dorna contriving the HRC ride for him, if not so much Repsol who were already sponsoring him. It would also seem very likely Repsol and Puig have influenced Dani's length of tenure at HRC and his treatment during that tenure, but I doubt Dorna has had much if any involvement in regard to Dani.
As we have debated at length, having the owners of the media rights to a sport running the sport isn't imo a good model for running an international sport or even a traditional local sport, given all the amateur participation and volunteer work underpinning most such sports, and I don't think allows overall planning for the sport in general and such things as regularising national series. I am sure Dorna themselves realise that more international participation would improve the bottom line, but even if they were more competent I don't see much in the way of methods for them to achieve this, other than actively promoting international riders which they have tried to do to some extent. If the FIM were more in charge, or at least motorsport guys of some variety, there would probably also be more chance of keeping the manufacturers in line as the previous owners of WSBK did to an extent.
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I see the usual suspects still flogging the same dead horses...
Should the same usual suspects want to say that Angel Nieto as being less worthy of a GPs champion and legend for not having a 500cc title or for that matter even raced in the 500cc series?
Only a fool would think Angel Nieto was unworthy...
<span style="font-size:14px;....but any rider or former champion that cuntinous to under perform (not winning or getting in top 5 consistently) on prototype machinery year on year has to start to worry about their future....and one can argue that teams would have to wonder if those riders is worth their spot on the grid or if perhaps the rider is just not seeing the writing on the wall.....
Maybe Pedrosa should be let go from Repsol HRC....but so long as he can win and get 2nd on the title race....HRC will be happy to be dominating with him and MM...
Who else other than JLo, VR, or Cal right now is capable of riding in top 5 consistency....? No one....No even Hodor on his best day when he was at his best....so why not keep Dani for another few years until he retires.....
I for one am looking forward to the rest of the season....cause it aint over yet, and Pedrosa is good enough and really the only one close enough in points to take the fight to MM....and if Dani cant well he has 2014 to take another shot at it....and most likely again in 2015 with HRC....
So you usual suspects can keep flogging the same dead horse....cause it makes no difference to HRC what you or I think, they just care about dominating....and that is what they are doing and will do again next year....
Should the same usual suspects want to say that Angel Nieto as being less worthy of a GPs champion and legend for not having a 500cc title or for that matter even raced in the 500cc series?
Only a fool would think Angel Nieto was unworthy...
<span style="font-size:14px;....but any rider or former champion that cuntinous to under perform (not winning or getting in top 5 consistently) on prototype machinery year on year has to start to worry about their future....and one can argue that teams would have to wonder if those riders is worth their spot on the grid or if perhaps the rider is just not seeing the writing on the wall.....
Maybe Pedrosa should be let go from Repsol HRC....but so long as he can win and get 2nd on the title race....HRC will be happy to be dominating with him and MM...
Who else other than JLo, VR, or Cal right now is capable of riding in top 5 consistency....? No one....No even Hodor on his best day when he was at his best....so why not keep Dani for another few years until he retires.....
I for one am looking forward to the rest of the season....cause it aint over yet, and Pedrosa is good enough and really the only one close enough in points to take the fight to MM....and if Dani cant well he has 2014 to take another shot at it....and most likely again in 2015 with HRC....
So you usual suspects can keep flogging the same dead horse....cause it makes no difference to HRC what you or I think, they just care about dominating....and that is what they are doing and will do again next year....
MigsAngel
No doubt that Dani looked the best available rider when Honda hired him, and I agree it is hard to come up with someone even now from outside the proper factory seats who would be likely to outperform him on a factory Honda. Honda have actually said they prefer not to have 2 Spanish riders though.
He as recently as last year was the best rider in the world on his day, of which there were several. I just don't see his luck, or perhaps more particularly his physical fragility, changing at this stage. I am not sure how long he will want to continue himself if he doesn't think he can beat MM for a championship, he looks to be fairly sick of fracturing his collar bones. However as I understand it he already is contracted for 2014.
No doubt that Dani looked the best available rider when Honda hired him, and I agree it is hard to come up with someone even now from outside the proper factory seats who would be likely to outperform him on a factory Honda. Honda have actually said they prefer not to have 2 Spanish riders though.
He as recently as last year was the best rider in the world on his day, of which there were several. I just don't see his luck, or perhaps more particularly his physical fragility, changing at this stage. I am not sure how long he will want to continue himself if he doesn't think he can beat MM for a championship, he looks to be fairly sick of fracturing his collar bones. However as I understand it he already is contracted for 2014.
