Indy Race Thread SPOILERS!

[michaelm]

Excellent point! And its the one I was bumbling and struggling to make. I think Stoner and Pedro, and to a lesser degree Spies got the right setting or at least style to preserve the tires at Indy, which it seems was a bit of a "new" track (well, at least the surface was). Its not saying that Stoner isn't fast, as some have tried to poo poo the suggestion that tires were an extraordinary issue at Indy mistaking it for Stoner bashing (though the source is certainly known for it). But I completely agree, that's why I described the tire choice as oxygen or cyanide, or better put, the Ducati version of operating band--that is extremely narrow.

I agree with both of you, but have some sympathy with bridgestone who didn't really want a control tyre either, and may have produced the tyres at Indy in response to criticism of their tyres being treacherous early and too durable late earlier in the season.



As talpa says this is the problem with a control tyre, it can't suit all bikes in all circumstances, particularly if it is changed mid-season. I may be mistaken, but I think conditions have been unusual this year also, with mostly cool conditions and no new tracks. Here they got both hot conditions and a new track surface. Stoner has always been great on the hard tyres, and I still don't think he has won many races on the softer tyres, and no dry races at all on the ducati that I can recall. J4rno said some time ago that stoner's mini-"slump" was due to he/his team not having worked out how to set-up for a change in the formulation of the control tyre, which they have now done. I am still interested to know if he has or can win on the softer tyre, medium or whatever they call it now.



I can't defend stoner's pre-race complaints about the track btw, which were ungracious and unnecessary even if proven correct. Motogp is in a parlous state in general, barely hangs on in the US at the best of times, the race is apparently under threat, and the organisers have tried hard and laid a new surface. It is difficult for a new track surface to be other than new, and with Indy's iconic position in motorsports history some respect for the place is in order anyway.

 

[michaelm]

I was just taking a pop at Simoncelli. Crashing or coming 7th is neither big nor clever. Eating up your tires (on your factory Honda, while everyone else keeps theirs intact) is pretty dumb. But his crew probably have to take some of the blame for that too.



Here's the thing I've said about Simoncelli all along: He doesn't have the intelligence to be a champion among the big boys. He gets his ... handed to him by Dovizioso week in and week out because Dovi manages the race and uses his nous. Simoncelli flies in like a priapic teenager and blows his load before he's got the race's knickers off (thanks MichaelM - I think).

Arrabbiata, I believe, who has a much better turn of phrase than I do.

 

[michaelm]

Stoner is the fastest guy out there, but the Stoner-factor is smaller than you imagine. At certain venues like Phillip Island or Qatar, Stoner is worth .5 a lap, but I think the Brno testing times gave us a demonstration of his abilities on a level playing field. On any given Sunday, Stoner is worth .1-.2 per lap against the other aliens, imo, and while his prodigious skill would still equate to 3 second victories, it isn't the 5-10 second slaughterfests we've grown to dislike. Lopsided victories of that magnitude should be blamed on the 2011 transmission, which has started to show its true fuel saving potential after a half season of development. Stoner and Pedrosa ride different bikes. Stoner is getting his dialed in. Pedrosa is still riding around the limitations of his chassis preferences.



If MotoGP has passed Rossi by, you might want to tell the riders. They seem anxious to ride the dumbed-down torque machines. If MotoGP has passed Rossi by, the durable Bridgestones are the culprit.

I definitely don't think stoner has so much speed as to be able to overcome a bike disadvantage to beat the likes of say spies in future next time yamaha come up with a really good bike. I am not sure that the testing times for the 2012 bikes are necessarily a good guide to relative pace as yet though, as they were testing a few different things, not that spies' testing was other than greatly impressive.



I agree about pedrosa, dovi has voted with his feet and gone for stoner's chassis preference. I agree with others that dani has spent too much time trying to get everything absolutely perfect with the honda over the years rather than just riding what he has got at least on race day.

 

[33 Coupe]

Rossi ended the tyre war between Michelin & Bridgestone & the boppers were happy. Now with equal tyres the GOAT will beat everyone, every time. Things haven't quite worked out that way, so now they want to restart the tyre war. Make your mind up people.



The tyre can be ridden & made to last. All the others need to do is look at who is having success with them & adopt their race plans. Stoner, Spies & Dovi have all shown how to get the best out of the tyre. They take it easy at the start, let the tyre slowly build temperature then drop the hammer after 4 or 5 laps. Spies & Dovi particularly have always been fast at the end of the race, after being a little slower at the start. I think Krop has used an excellent analagy with Hairball. The other guys are blowing their load before the party has started. They are doing too much damage to the tyre at the start of the race when the tyre isn't up to temperature. Let the tyre build temp before pushing it otherwise you risk damaging it & having nothing left at the end. It's a control tyre FFS, everyone has the same kit, some are just smarter at utilising it than others.

 

[FTE217]

Rossi ended the tyre war between Michelin & Bridgestone & the boppers were happy. Now with equal tyres the GOAT will beat everyone, every time. Things haven't quite worked out that way, so now they want to restart the tyre war. Make your mind up people.



The tyre can be ridden & made to last. All the others need to do is look at who is having success with them & adopt their race plans. Stoner, Spies & Dovi have all shown how to get the best out of the tyre. They take it easy at the start, let the tyre slowly build temperature then drop the hammer after 4 or 5 laps. Spies & Dovi particularly have always been fast at the end of the race, after being a little slower at the start. I think Kroop has used an excellent analagy with Hairball. The other guys are blowing their load before the party has started. They are doing too much damage to the tyre at the start of the race when the tyre isn't up to temperature. Let the tyre build temp before pushing it otherwise you risk damaging it & having nothing left at the end. It's a control tyre FFS, everyone has the same kit, some are just smarter at utilising it than others.

Here is the best post above - set up and racecraft......

 

[Talpa]

All good discussion. It is very interesting, and each weekend the tyre issue has been plaguing the sport more and more since the murmurs started coming from Ducati and Yamaha, Jorge in particular started proceedings, we've had both Tech3 bikes suffer catastrophic failures, we've had several broken collarbones and a few very, very lucky escapes from Stoner and Sic.



I can't really recall anyone being happy about the single tyre rule except Michelin-who couldn't afford it anymore, Dorna- who are like a puppy trying trying to find its feet falling on their ... all the time, and of course the MSMA- who being run by Honda, knew that the worm would turn back in favor of the manufactures who put more into developing their machine around a specific tyre......not even Bridgestone were happy about it, no doubt for the techs on the ground, without any competition in the series it would be far harder to convince 'the powers that be' in Japan to spend any money on development....why would you when you win every week!!



Now I remember well in 2007 when several circuits were resurfaced, Bridgestone were famously applauded for sending their techs out to the venues all around the world and testing the surface then developing compounds specifically for these rounds-Laguna being the most prominent and completely smashing Michelin shod competitors who didn't do this R&D. Now why did they not do this at Indy this year? Surely when you are supplying the entire field in the most popular motorcycling series on the planet... this work should have been done and special compounds allocated for the round at a seriously re-surfaced venue. Instead we watched, rather embarrassingly for the majority of the field and the Circuit, a dismal display of tyre failures, riders retiring and most of the field even more uncompetitive than usual, and a track littered with marbles off the racing line making it resemble a speedway circuit more than a Road racing venue!! All of this could have been solved with the right rubber and tyre suppliers in competition bringing a 'SELECTION' of compounds....



I'm now of the impression that the tyre supply is not consistent and that Bridgestone is using an old stockpile for the majority of the teams which has been implied by several riders, except it seems for Repsol Honda.......same compounds, different ages of rubber.....this can certainly help to explain the massive inconsistencies on the weekend. The riding styles are simply not that different, and the bike at least in Sic's case is suppose to be the same. And how is it that the Ducati is incapable of being set-up by the worlds best teams and riders to just finish the race, let alone be competitive?

 

[michaelm]

All good discussion. It is very interesting, and each weekend the tyre issue has been plaguing the sport more and more since the murmurs started coming from Ducati and Yamaha, Jorge in particular started proceedings, we've had both Tech3 bikes suffer catastrophic failures, we've had several broken collarbones and a few very, very lucky escapes from Stoner and Sic.



I can't really recall anyone being happy about the single tyre rule except Michelin-who couldn't afford it anymore, Dorna- who are like a puppy trying trying to find its feet falling on their ... all the time, and of course the MSMA- who being run by Honda, knew that the worm would turn back in favor of the manufactures who put more into developing their machine around a specific tyre......not even Bridgestone were happy about it, no doubt for the techs on the ground, without any competition in the series it would be far harder to convince 'the powers that be' in Japan to spend any money on development....why would you when you win every week!!



Now I remember well in 2007 when several circuits were resurfaced, Bridgestone were famously applauded for sending their techs out to the venues all around the world and testing the surface then developing compounds specifically for these rounds-Laguna being the most prominent and completely smashing Michelin shod competitors who didn't do this R&D. Now why did they not do this at Indy this year? Surely when you are supplying the entire field in the most popular motorcycling series on the planet... this work should have been done and special compounds allocated for the round at a seriously re-surfaced venue. Instead we watched, rather embarrassingly for the majority of the field and the Circuit, a dismal display of tyre failures, riders retiring and most of the field even more uncompetitive than usual, and a track littered with marbles off the racing line making it resemble a speedway circuit more than a Road racing venue!! All of this could have been solved with the right rubber and tyre suppliers in competition bringing a 'SELECTION' of compounds....



I'm now of the impression that the tyre supply is not consistent and that Bridgestone is using an old stockpile for the majority of the teams which has been implied by several riders, except it seems for Repsol Honda.......same compounds, different ages of rubber.....this can certainly help to explain the massive inconsistencies on the weekend. The riding styles are simply not that different, and the bike at least in Sic's case is suppose to be the same. And how is it that the Ducati is incapable of being set-up by the worlds best teams and riders to just finish the race, let alone be competitive?

I agree with most of this, and share your opinion on the control tyre in general. I don't think there is a conspiracy though, the tyres are allocated in a strict random fashion afaik. Whilst I don't have much time for honda in general, other than being grateful to them for providing wayne gardner, mick doohan and casey stoner with bikes capable of winning, one thing they can't be blamed for is the control tyre. A certain at the time yamaha rider started the ball rolling, and dani pedrosa completed the process by making michelin's position untenable. Word at the time was that honda wanted to stick with michelin, their longterm partner in motogp, and did not want to abandon them after just a single year of apparent inferiority. That yamaha rider would appear to have not been thinking very long term, perhaps ironically given his current situation.



Ducati are suffering no doubt, and it is doubly unfair for it to be necessary for ducati, with far fewer resources than the big two, to re-design their bike because it doesn't work with a control tyre brought in to "save costs". As someone said elsewhere, perhaps they should "do a rossi"' and threaten to leave the series taking 7 of the 15 bikes currently lining up on the grid with them unless the tyre rule is changed.

 

[birdman]

All good discussion. It is very interesting, and each weekend the tyre issue has been plaguing the sport more and more since the murmurs started coming from Ducati and Yamaha, Jorge in particular started proceedings, we've had both Tech3 bikes suffer catastrophic failures, we've had several broken collarbones and a few very, very lucky escapes from Stoner and Sic.



I'm now of the impression that the tyre supply is not consistent and that Bridgestone is using an old stockpile for the majority of the teams which has been implied by several riders, except it seems for Repsol Honda.......same compounds, different ages of rubber.....this can certainly help to explain the massive inconsistencies on the weekend. The riding styles are simply not that different, and the bike at least in Sic's case is suppose to be the same. And how is it that the Ducati is incapable of being set-up by the worlds best teams and riders to just finish the race, let alone be competitive?

Its true Stoner has had lucky escapes, but if he's crashing also then how do you come to the conclusion Repsol gets special treatment? What happened to Pedro in Brno?

If anything its the factory Yamaha riders who have crashed the least, so the present rubber seems to suit factory Yamaha the most. I wonder why? Who was the last factory Yamaha rider that left in a huff? For what possible reason could he have favoured these strange hard front tyres that lack feel? Because the Yam has the most front feel of any bike out there maybe? Designed to increase the front contact patch? Advantage Yamaha? three world titles in a row? Surely not. No it cant be. Stoner kept crashing in 2008 because of the pressure remember.



Simo burns out his rubber over-riding the bike trying to keep up with the best riders. Simo is not acknowledged as a rider who sets the bike up well, so naturally his tyres wont last as long. Jeez how many times has Lawson, Doohan, Rainey, and JB said this. Now all of a sudden its a conspiracy.

Were there any complaints after Mugello and Sachsenring? Who suffered in these races?



I get the feeling had Rossi signed with Repsol Honda rather than Stoner everything would be just fine in Motogp.

It seems taking Stoner out of this years championship with an injury is on a lot of peoples wish list.

 

[33 Coupe]

Talps. Although we called it a tyre war between Michelin & Bridgestone, it is more a competition by definition. Bridgestone used every tool at their disposal to get one up on Michelin, including sending techs to different circuit to develop circuit specific tyres. By adopting the single tyre rule, Dorna have negated the need for this type of development to continue.



I have no problem with what is occuring at the moment as it is the same for all riders & teams. What I probably would like to see more of, is advise from Bridgestone to the teams. Maybe instead of developing circuit specific tyres (which would be horrendlessly expensive in this economic climate), I would like to see the Bridgestone techs give good solid advise to the teams regarding tyre life, performance & wear characteristic for each circuit so teams can better develop a race stratagy based on this advise. Teams may sacrifise a bit of outright lap performance to ensure tyre life at the end of the race.



To me this year is much like the 80's & 90's with tyres. When the 500's were racing you had 2 options, burn them up at the start & have nothing left, or manage the tyres earlier on to ensure you had something left at the end. Although it seems some teams are disadvantaged, they all have the same tools available. This is one aspect of Moto GP that I find very interesting ATM. RACECRAFT. Some are utuilising it to advantage, and some haven't grabbed the concept yet.

 

[Jumkie]

I agree with both of you, but have some sympathy with bridgestone who didn't really want a control tyre either, and may have produced the tyres at Indy in response to criticism of their tyres being treacherous early and too durable late earlier in the season.

Agree, they have been blamed for a lot this season. And to think, they had no intention of being in this situation as the sole supplier, as they were happy to maintain a tire war with Michelin. Karma aside, its killing me to see most of the Ducati riders, who are on already a suspect machine (where these riders had previously been deemed suspect with authoritative convictions) now struggling a double wammy, bike AND tires.

 

[mylexicon]

I definitely don't think stoner has so much speed as to be able to overcome a bike disadvantage to beat the likes of say spies in future next time yamaha come up with a really good bike. I am not sure that the testing times for the 2012 bikes are necessarily a good guide to relative pace as yet though, as they were testing a few different things, not that spies' testing was other than greatly impressive.



I agree about pedrosa, dovi has voted with his feet and gone for stoner's chassis preference. I agree with others that dani has spent too much time trying to get everything absolutely perfect with the honda over the years rather than just riding what he has got at least on race day.

Bridgestone warned that Pedrosa would have issues with the control tire. Dani's chassis allegedly has a forward weight-bias. Dani's preference? or necessary to make the Bridgestone front tire work for his diminutive stature? Both?



Regardless, Stoner has gotten the bike sorted, and he's made the tires, gearbox, and electronics work in harmony. Timing couldn't be better for Stoner. If he can notch another win at Misano, he will extend his championship lead, and, more importantly, Lorenzo will be win-less for 60 days. Long losing streaks impair judgment and erode the will to win.

 

[Jumkie]

Its true Stoner has had lucky escapes, but if he's crashing also then how do you come to the conclusion Repsol gets special treatment? What happened to Pedro in Brno?

If anything its the factory Yamaha riders who have crashed the least, so the present rubber seems to suit factory Yamaha the most. I wonder why? Who was the last factory Yamaha rider that left in a huff? For what possible reason could he have favoured these strange hard front tyres that lack feel? Because the Yam has the most front feel of any bike out there maybe? Designed to increase the front contact patch? Advantage Yamaha? three world titles in a row? Surely not. No it cant be. Stoner kept crashing in 2008 because of the pressure remember.



Simo burns out his rubber over-riding the bike trying to keep up with the best riders. Simo is not acknowledged as a rider who sets the bike up well, so naturally his tyres wont last as long. Jeez how many times has Lawson, Doohan, Rainey, and JB said this. Now all of a sudden its a conspiracy.

Were there any complaints after Mugello and Sachsenring? Who suffered in these races?



I get the feeling had Rossi signed with Repsol Honda rather than Stoner everything would be just fine in Motogp.

It seems taking Stoner out of this years championship with an injury is on a lot of peoples wish list.

Your last statement completely discredits you. I seriously doubt any sane person is thinking this at all. I'd say there are some insane people here, and the guy who comes immediately to mind is 'scotty' AKA Alphabet. (Surely, only an insne person can get so unglued at the thought of somebody's criticism of Stoner, hahaha, I'm still laugh at some of his posts). But other than that, I can't think of too many, even the most staunch boppers doing go ape .... like that. I'd say I have been the most vocal of disliking Pedro, and having him get hurt at any time in his career is not something that wonders into my mind.



As to the rest of your post, it was decent, and the line of logic is not unreasonable about the tires. But at Indy, the problem was that even the "hard" tires were too soft. Again, there may be a simple explanation, and I think Michael basically touched on it. That is, the tires have been to hard for the unusual cold season, but here at Indy, it got uncharacteristically cold. I may be stretching a bit, but perhaps, just perhaps, they saw the 10 day forecast and thought hurricane Irene might dumb on Indy. Because the tires, even the hard (and there were only two, hard and harder) were way too soft.

 

[frizzle]

Your last statement completely discredits you. I seriously doubt any sane person is thinking this at all. I'd say there are some insane people here, and the guy who comes immediately to mind is 'scotty' AKA Alphabet. (Surely, only an insne person can get so unglued at the thought of somebody's criticism of Stoner, hahaha, I'm still laugh at some of his posts). But other than that, I can't think of too many, even the most staunch boppers doing go ape .... like that. I'd say I have been the most vocal of disliking Pedro, and having him get hurt at any time in his career is not something that wonders into my mind.



As to the rest of your post, it was decent, and the line of logic is not unreasonable about the tires. But at Indy, the problem was that even the "hard" tires were too soft. Again, there may be a simple explanation, and I think Michael basically touched on it. That is, the tires have been to hard for the unusual cold season, but here at Indy, it got uncharacteristically cold. I may be stretching a bit, but perhaps, just perhaps, they saw the 10 day forecast and thought hurricane Irene might dumb on Indy. Because the tires, even the hard (and there were only two, hard and harder) were way too soft.

Help me out here as I'm getting a little confused with what exactly the problem was with the Bridgestone tyres at Indy. Was all the problems front tyre only? Were they too soft? It's just a lot of riders used the softer rear in the race. Was the rear fine for everybody? I was under the impression the fronts were too hard & they were cold tearing? I admit I haven't seen all the interviews this weekend so I'm not 100% on the exact problems.

 

[mylexicon]

Its true Stoner has had lucky escapes, but if he's crashing also then how do you come to the conclusion Repsol gets special treatment? What happened to Pedro in Brno?

If anything its the factory Yamaha riders who have crashed the least, so the present rubber seems to suit factory Yamaha the most. I wonder why? Who was the last factory Yamaha rider that left in a huff? For what possible reason could he have favoured these strange hard front tyres that lack feel? Because the Yam has the most front feel of any bike out there maybe? Designed to increase the front contact patch? Advantage Yamaha? three world titles in a row? Surely not. No it cant be. Stoner kept crashing in 2008 because of the pressure remember.

Negative. Rossi doesn't favor the hard front tires, in fact, he changed the sport by putting a mush hoop on the front wheel of his M1, and then dropping anchors at the last possible moment. After block passing everyone in his way and barely making the apex, Rossi would give it a handful of gas. The soft rear shock would throw weight on the rear tire, and the I-4, which was wedged as close the front wheel as possible, would keep the front wheel close to the deck. Point-and-shoot on an entirely new level.



That was the Rossi/Burgess/Michelin magic during the 990cc Yamaha era. It worked flawlessly...........until Honda reduced fuel from 24L to 22L in 2006. Honda made further fuel capacity reductions and displacement reductions in 2007 to create flickable, mass-centralized bikes, unlike the crude 990cc M1 (I'm putting words in their mouth regarding the M1's engineering philosophy). To a degree, I think 21L 800cc was Honda's plan to end the 990cc game Rossi/Burgess had created at Yamaha. Apart from his financial troubles in 2007, I think that Rossi's poor humor, regarding his competitors and Michelin tires, was just pent-up aggression from his ongoing struggle with Honda. I'm sure his 2008 & 2009 titles gave him nearly as much satisfaction as his 2004 & 2005 titles b/c he had defied Honda for the second time.



The front end feel delivered by Rossi's chassis was deliberately engineered, and it is not the same as the standard Yamaha. Spies now uses Rossi's chassis development, but it is inconclusive, imo, whether or not Rossi's chassis is able to transfer proper cornering loads to the newer, harder Bridgestone control tires. In any event, Rossi/Burgess actually engineered the hard feeling out of the 2010 control tires.



I think the reasons for Rossi's departure are becoming clear. He's been asking for a V4 for several years now, and Yamaha have apparently made it known that they want to develop a V-4 engine. After years of discussion, Yamaha will not run a V-4 in 2012 for the new regulations. What better way to get a V-4 than to jump on Stoner's old bike? All they've got to do is get the chassis squared away. Easy as apple pie! Honda is done for!



Rossi's suspiciously public spat, regarding Lorenzo, looks increasingly like a smoke-screen to disparage the reigning WC. If Rossi/Burgess were actually lobbying for a V-4, Yamaha wouldn't have given Rossi's threats a second thought, and Furusawa, father of the cross-plane I-4, would have been offended to learn of Rossi's departure............

 

[birdman]

Your last statement completely discredits you. I seriously doubt any sane person is thinking this at all. I'd say there are some insane people here, and the guy who comes immediately to mind is 'scotty' AKA Alphabet. (Surely, only an insne person can get so unglued at the thought of somebody's criticism of Stoner, hahaha, I'm still laugh at some of his posts). But other than that, I can't think of too many, even the most staunch boppers doing go ape .... like that. I'd say I have been the most vocal of disliking Pedro, and having him get hurt at any time in his career is not something that wonders into my mind.



As to the rest of your post, it was decent, and the line of logic is not unreasonable about the tires. But at Indy, the problem was that even the "hard" tires were too soft. Again, there may be a simple explanation, and I think Michael basically touched on it. That is, the tires have been to hard for the unusual cold season, but here at Indy, it got uncharacteristically cold. I may be stretching a bit, but perhaps, just perhaps, they saw the 10 day forecast and thought hurricane Irene might dumb on Indy. Because the tires, even the hard (and there were only two, hard and harder) were way too soft.

Don’t be naive Jumkie, many 'sane' people enjoy contact sports, boxing, UFC even with the potential 'injury' aspect associated.



Are people just inherently 'good' or 'evil', or a little of both? Do we like to inflict a bit of pain on our adversaries? You can claim the high ground if you like, I know what lurks in my darkest moments and thoughts, and it’s not a pretty sight. Is it completely irrational - yes. Insane? Probably. But to deny its existence is to deny what makes us human.



Ok it was a deliberately provocative statement. And what credit did I have to start with? Probably none. But I must say, deep down inside, there could be people who would actually be happier than they are now if Stoner was somehow out of the series. I'm not saying by death, or serious injury. Maybe more along the lines of a 'tummy ache'. That would make for better racing, would it not? After idolising Doohan for years, I actually turned against him, started barracking for Criville! Oh well, there goes the last shred of my credibility.

 

[Dazza]

Managed to catch the last few laps, really impressed with Bautistas last 2 outings with the Suzuki. The Duke looks ..... and almost unrideable. Congrats to Stoner.

 

[birdman]

In this case, I don't think your post was spawned by mindless Rossi worship, as the tires situation did appear extraordinary. But I'm not king on blaming the track, as some have done. The track is a fixture that must be negotiated. People complaining about the track (as even some of the riders did) is to me like saying, it has too many turns, or that turn bends too much, etc. Like Stoner and Lorenzo constantly complaining about the track. Even Casey saying the turns didn't open but continued to close, making it odd for him. The track is there as a challenge, isn't that what turns are for, to test the rider's ability to negotiate it? So to complain the turns are not to his liking is gay. And for other here to be blaming the track for the tire wear is just as ridiculous. I'm assuming Bstone had some time to figure out the characteristics of the new track surface. If they didn't, then they ...... up. And tire choice seemed like an exceptional enigma, on Ducati. Though it seems that Bstone brought out the Ducati-version-of-tires, that is--only usable in a very narrow band of setup/style.

In Aus we went from PI to Eastern Creek. They all hated it, including Rainey, Schwantz, Lawson. I didnt take it personally at all, they were right, even though EC was an hour from my house. PI was much better and so the race rightly went back there. USA must have better tracks than Indy, and they could have made Indy better than it is.

 

[hawkdriver]

Your last statement completely discredits you. I seriously doubt any sane person is thinking this at all. I'd say there are some insane people here, and the guy who comes immediately to mind is 'scotty' AKA Alphabet. (Surely, only an insne person can get so unglued at the thought of somebody's criticism of Stoner, hahaha, I'm still laugh at some of his posts). But other than that, I can't think of too many, even the most staunch boppers doing go ape .... like that. I'd say I have been the most vocal of disliking Pedro, and having him get hurt at any time in his career is not something that wonders into my mind.



As to the rest of your post, it was decent, and the line of logic is not unreasonable about the tires. But at Indy, the problem was that even the "hard" tires were too soft. Again, there may be a simple explanation, and I think Michael basically touched on it. That is, the tires have been to hard for the unusual cold season, but here at Indy, it got uncharacteristically cold. I may be stretching a bit, but perhaps, just perhaps, they saw the 10 day forecast and thought hurricane Irene might dumb on Indy. Because the tires, even the hard (and there were only two, hard and harder) were way too soft.

I'm no huge Casey fan at all and at the start of season even I was saying Casey needs to chill out with his practice and qualy antics, chasing guys around and cutting them off before he ends up getting hurt and pissing away his season.I'm glad the bike is keeping him busy during practice and we haven't really had any shenanigans from any rider during the last couple of rounds. I don't think anyone that post here wants to see any rider go down with injuries.

 

[hawkdriver]

Negative. Rossi doesn't favor the hard front tires, in fact, he changed the sport by putting a mush hoop on the front wheel of his M1, and then dropping anchors at the last possible moment. After block passing everyone in his way and barely making the apex, Rossi would give it a handful of gas. The soft rear shock would throw weight on the rear tire, and the I-4, which was wedged as close the front wheel as possible, would keep the front wheel close to the deck. Point-and-shoot on an entirely new level.



That was the Rossi/Burgess/Michelin magic during the 990cc Yamaha era. It worked flawlessly...........until Honda reduced fuel from 24L to 22L in 2006. Honda made further fuel capacity reductions and displacement reductions in 2007 to create flickable, mass-centralized bikes, unlike the crude 990cc M1 (I'm putting words in their mouth regarding the M1's engineering philosophy). To a degree, I think 21L 800cc was Honda's plan to end the 990cc game Rossi/Burgess had created at Yamaha. Apart from his financial troubles in 2007, I think that Rossi's poor humor, regarding his competitors and Michelin tires, was just pent-up aggression from his ongoing struggle with Honda. I'm sure his 2008 & 2009 titles gave him nearly as much satisfaction as his 2004 & 2005 titles b/c he had defied Honda for the second time.



The front end feel delivered by Rossi's chassis was deliberately engineered, and it is not the same as the standard Yamaha. Spies now uses Rossi's chassis development, but it is inconclusive, imo, whether or not Rossi's chassis is able to transfer proper cornering loads to the newer, harder Bridgestone control tires. In any event, Rossi/Burgess actually engineered the hard feeling out of the 2010 control tires.



I think the reasons for Rossi's departure are becoming clear. He's been asking for a V4 for several years now, and Yamaha have apparently made it known that they want to develop a V-4 engine. After years of discussion, Yamaha will not run a V-4 in 2012 for the new regulations. What better way to get a V-4 than to jump on Stoner's old bike? All they've got to do is get the chassis squared away. Easy as apple pie! Honda is done for!



Rossi's suspiciously public spat, regarding Lorenzo, looks increasingly like a smoke-screen to disparage the reigning WC. If Rossi/Burgess were actually lobbying for a V-4, Yamaha wouldn't have given Rossi's threats a second thought, and Furusawa, father of the cross-plane I-4, would have been offended to learn of Rossi's departure............

You know I read the same reasoning about Rossi wanting to leave Yam because of the engine. I did enjoy all the years of no Honda championships, I hate the way they clearly run gp and the other factories continue to put up with their .....

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Its true Stoner has had lucky escapes, but if he's crashing also then how do you come to the conclusion Repsol gets special treatment? What happened to Pedro in Brno?

If anything its the factory Yamaha riders who have crashed the least, so the present rubber seems to suit factory Yamaha the most. I wonder why? Who was the last factory Yamaha rider that left in a huff? For what possible reason could he have favoured these strange hard front tyres that lack feel? Because the Yam has the most front feel of any bike out there maybe? Designed to increase the front contact patch? Advantage Yamaha? three world titles in a row? Surely not. No it cant be. Stoner kept crashing in 2008 because of the pressure remember.



Simo burns out his rubber over-riding the bike trying to keep up with the best riders. Simo is not acknowledged as a rider who sets the bike up well, so naturally his tyres wont last as long. Jeez how many times has Lawson, Doohan, Rainey, and JB said this. Now all of a sudden its a conspiracy.

Were there any complaints after Mugello and Sachsenring? Who suffered in these races?



I get the feeling had Rossi signed with Repsol Honda rather than Stoner everything would be just fine in Motogp.

It seems taking Stoner out of this years championship with an injury is on a lot of peoples wish list.

At last some sanity in the discussion.



Where is the Bridgestone are at fault for Indy coming from? I haven't heard any of the riders blame the tyres independently of the track. In fact the riders unanimously were saying that the lack of rubber on the circuit made the track very slippery and left the sharp edges of the asphalt exposed which was tearing the tyres.



Talpa has bleated on about Stoner talking badly about Indy and how it is this icon and it is irresponsible to talk badly about a track in public. Please. Why is it ok then to publicly flog the main supplier to the sport? Against their will they were made single tyre supplier to please Rossi. Don't force someones hand and then have the gall to ..... about how they perform. It like forcing someone into ... and than bitching that they didn't push back hard enough.



The facts are that the Indy circuit operators ...... up by not running an event or at least scrubbing in the track prior to MotoGP arriving. Just as birdman said and I will relate it differently if Rossi had of got a performance jump by Honda and Yamaha struggling due to tyres the yellow horde would be fine about it.