Indy Race Thread SPOILERS!

[Talpa]

Negative. Rossi doesn't favor the hard front tires, in fact, he changed the sport by putting a mush hoop on the front wheel of his M1, and then dropping anchors at the last possible moment. After block passing everyone in his way and barely making the apex, Rossi would give it a handful of gas. The soft rear shock would throw weight on the rear tire, and the I-4, which was wedged as close the front wheel as possible, would keep the front wheel close to the deck. Point-and-shoot on an entirely new level.



That was the Rossi/Burgess/Michelin magic during the 990cc Yamaha era. It worked flawlessly...........until Honda reduced fuel from 24L to 22L in 2006. Honda made further fuel capacity reductions and displacement reductions in 2007 to create flickable, mass-centralized bikes, unlike the crude 990cc M1 (I'm putting words in their mouth regarding the M1's engineering philosophy). To a degree, I think 21L 800cc was Honda's plan to end the 990cc game Rossi/Burgess had created at Yamaha. Apart from his financial troubles in 2007, I think that Rossi's poor humor, regarding his competitors and Michelin tires, was just pent-up aggression from his ongoing struggle with Honda. I'm sure his 2008 & 2009 titles gave him nearly as much satisfaction as his 2004 & 2005 titles b/c he had defied Honda for the second time.



The front end feel delivered by Rossi's chassis was deliberately engineered, and it is not the same as the standard Yamaha. Spies now uses Rossi's chassis development, but it is inconclusive, imo, whether or not Rossi's chassis is able to transfer proper cornering loads to the newer, harder Bridgestone control tires. In any event, Rossi/Burgess actually engineered the hard feeling out of the 2010 control tires.



I think the reasons for Rossi's departure are becoming clear. He's been asking for a V4 for several years now, and Yamaha have apparently made it known that they want to develop a V-4 engine. After years of discussion, Yamaha will not run a V-4 in 2012 for the new regulations. What better way to get a V-4 than to jump on Stoner's old bike? All they've got to do is get the chassis squared away. Easy as apple pie! Honda is done for!



Rossi's suspiciously public spat, regarding Lorenzo, looks increasingly like a smoke-screen to disparage the reigning WC. If Rossi/Burgess were actually lobbying for a V-4, Yamaha wouldn't have given Rossi's threats a second thought, and Furusawa, father of the cross-plane I-4, would have been offended to learn of Rossi's departure............

Thanks for reminding me of the fuel limit change in 06 I'd completely forgotten about that, then another change for 07, only Honda screwed themselves royally that year and Ducati gave then a slap......Either way its very clear that Honda has pulled out all of the stops to win no matter what this year, and as some have said Yamaha is content to let it happen.



Bridgestone is only performing as much as they have to, once complaints are heard and problems are arising they are attempting to provide very minimal solutions. The entire philosophy of this rubber is wrong and completely opposed to what is needed, IMO you can hardly use the word Racecraft when assessing some of the issues of the weekend, tyres were being completely destroyed making the bikes unrideable, this had nothing to do with tyre management and racecraft and bike setup.....something which four of the biggest casualties in Rossi, Hayden, Jorge and Caparossi have more experience and are better at than most and have the best in world in their garages, It is impossible to assume they've just forgotten and that the others are that much better......There are fundamental problems with the running of this series, which no matter how you look at it, is making it more unnecessarily complex and expensive, whilst appearing less professional and sure of itself than its been for a long time.

 

[birdman]

Thanks for reminding me of the fuel limit change in 06 I'd completely forgotten about that, then another change for 07, only Honda screwed themselves royally that year and Ducati gave then a slap......Either way its very clear that Honda has pulled out all of the stops to win no matter what this year, and as some have said Yamaha is content to let it happen.



Bridgestone is only performing as much as they have to, once complaints are heard and problems are arising they are attempting to provide very minimal solutions. The entire philosophy of this rubber is wrong and completely opposed to what is needed, IMO you can hardly use the word Racecraft when assessing some of the issues of the weekend, tyres were being completely destroyed making the bikes unrideable, this had nothing to do with tyre management and racecraft and bike setup.....something which four of the biggest casualties in Rossi, Hayden, Jorge and Caparossi have more experience and are better at than most and have the best in world in their garages, It is impossible to assume they've just forgotten and that the others are that much better......There are fundamental problems with the running of this series, which no matter how you look at it, is making it more unnecessarily complex and expensive, whilst appearing less professional and sure of itself than its been for a long time.

Ah, Bridgestone, a Japanese company, was affected by the Tsunami. You know, the country Boner backflipped over that deserved his support.

So Bridgestone, I'm sure it was reported, were limited to what they had in stock. Sure we can blame a Japanese company for all this debacle and at the same time we can blame those that dont show support for Japan.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Thanks for reminding me of the fuel limit change in 06 I'd completely forgotten about that, then another change for 07, only Honda screwed themselves royally that year and Ducati gave then a slap......Either way its very clear that Honda has pulled out all of the stops to win no matter what this year, and as some have said Yamaha is content to let it happen.



Bridgestone is only performing as much as they have to, once complaints are heard and problems are arising they are attempting to provide very minimal solutions. The entire philosophy of this rubber is wrong and completely opposed to what is needed, IMO you can hardly use the word Racecraft when assessing some of the issues of the weekend, tyres were being completely destroyed making the bikes unrideable, this had nothing to do with tyre management and racecraft and bike setup.....something which four of the biggest casualties in Rossi, Hayden, Jorge and Caparossi have more experience and are better at than most and have the best in world in their garages, It is impossible to assume they've just forgotten and that the others are that much better......There are fundamental problems with the running of this series, which no matter how you look at it, is making it more unnecessarily complex and expensive, whilst appearing less professional and sure of itself than its been for a long time.

This is your problem. You can not get your mind around the fact that riders will and have surpassed the skills and talents of Rossi. Every thing you write has this as its underlying issue. If you ever come to realise that it is possible and it is inevitable then your views on all things MotoGP will change.

 

[Talpa]

This is your problem. You can not get your mind around the fact that riders will and have surpassed the skills and talents of Rossi. Every thing you write has this as its underlying issue. If you ever come to realise that it is possible and it is inevitable then your views on all things MotoGP will change.

Other riders being Dani, Stoner, Spies, Dovi and so on......did you not see all of the retirements and horrendous loss of pace from other on the weekend? And your saying I've got a problem........when you realize that the sun doesn't shine out of Stoner's arse and that all things Rossi must be hated will be the day that you start to make sense....a day that will never come, which I know makes this pointless....

 

[Mental Anarchist]

Other riders being Dani, Stoner, Spies, Dovi and so on......did you not see all of the retirements and horrendous loss of pace from other on the weekend? And your saying I've got a problem........when you realize that the sun doesn't shine out of Stoner's arse and that all things Rossi must be hated will be the day that you start to make sense....a day that will never come, which I know makes this pointless....

I saw those that didn't ride to the conditions and pushed too hard on the front early in the race fell to the terrible track conditions. Those that didn't finished the race strong. There was no this bike is better than that (except obviously Ducati who are struggling not just this weekend) it came down to riders and set up's.



Using Hayden and Capirossi as holders of significant racecraft is just laughable. As much as I like Hayden he has not shown an ability to have a better back end of the race to the front end in 5 years. Capirossi is past it plain and simple and no amount of racecraft will overcome being slow.



You just need to get over the fact that half the riders managed the conditions well and the other half did not. Same .... happens every weekend. This time the conditions were a really crap asphalt.



You have your mind and hate fixated on the Bridgestones just as you do Stoner. No rational debate will make you look past your obsession with these evil incarnations. The only thing that can pacify you is if Rossi is winning. Unfortunately for your state of mind that does not look like it is going to happen anytime soon. Unless of course the rules can be changed in some way to give him an advantage back and hence your crusade against the Bridgestones.

 

[GeePee]

I'm confused with this talk of some riders surviving race distance on the Bridgestones & some not.



Are people saying there are discrepancies in the Bridgestones?





It was said on forums like this that in 2007 Bridgestone was an advantage of Stoners. Is the same being said again despite evryone having them?



Surely some are managing their wear better.

 

[Mental Anarchist]

I'm confused with this talk of some riders surviving race distance on the Bridgestones & some not.



Are people saying there are discrepancies in the Bridgestones?





It was said on forums like this that in 2007 Bridgestone was an advantage of Stoners. Is the same being said again despite evryone having them?



Surely some are managing their wear better.

Yep the lunatics are suggesting conspiracies and strangely enough Stoner is on the benefits side of the conspiracy. Why else would he be winning? After all it is impossible to assume that anyone could be better than Rossi, Hayden Capirossi or Lorenzo.

 

[michaelm]

In Aus we went from PI to Eastern Creek. They all hated it, including Rainey, Schwantz, Lawson. I didnt take it personally at all, they were right, even though EC was an hour from my house. PI was much better and so the race rightly went back there. USA must have better tracks than Indy, and they could have made Indy better than it is.

I think I said that rather than talpa, and I stand by it. Eastern Creek/PI was in different days with no gfc/threat to the whole show etc, and was a result of petty rivalry between two state governments of different political persuasions, and the riders were right to complain about switching from a great track to a poor one for such a reason.



Most western economies are now in a parlous state, motogp is not exactly thriving, at least partly from poor administration in my view although as lex has pointed out when the sport was totally thriving the operators were forced to sell out due to governmental caprice, motogp has a tenuous toehold in the USA in general at best, the Indy race is threatened, and the operators have laid a new track in response to rider complaints last year about it being uneven. That said, I am not sure stoner said anything untrue or not said by others, and he did not complain about laguna seca, so it would seem his complaint was with this particular american track and not america or american tracks in general. If you wish to lead or win championships, a focus on your comments goes with the territory though.



If you want another track complaint concerning which we may agree, rossi's about PI last year where he apparently does not like the weather (compared to where, Assen or Silverstone perhaps?) which led to dorna more or less threatening to scrap the Australian round altogether springs to mind; I hasten to add the weather in some years at assen and silverstone is part of the rich tapestry of the sport imo.

 

[muzzy57]

Ah, Bridgestone, a Japanese company, was affected by the Tsunami. You know, the country Boner backflipped over that deserved his support.

So Bridgestone, I'm sure it was reported, were limited to what they had in stock. Sure we can blame a Japanese company for all this debacle and at the same time we can blame those that dont show support for Japan.

Ah yes, that is the core of another thread isn't it? The same thread that also discusses Jorge not wanting to go & (surprise, surprise) Rossi not wanting to go either... ;-)

 

[muzzy57]

The entire philosophy of this rubber is wrong and completely opposed to what is needed, IMO you can hardly use the word Racecraft when assessing some of the issues of the weekend, tyres were being completely destroyed making the bikes unrideable, this had nothing to do with tyre management and racecraft and bike setup.....something which four of the biggest casualties in Rossi, Hayden, Jorge and Caparossi have more experience and are better at than most and have the best in world in their garages, It is impossible to assume they've just forgotten and that the others are that much better.......

Talps, with all due respect to Haydos ( & Jums ), you probably shouldn't have included Hayden & Capo in that example... Hayden has always used his tyres more heavily than the average rider & Loris has never come to "grips" with the Bridgestone control tyre from the moment that it was introduced...



Rossi as we all know has bigger problems on his plate than just the tyres, which might have been exacerbated by the track conditions on the weekend, which leaves only JLo...



And well, to be honest all thru practice & qualifying Jorge was struggling... He could put in the odd fast lap but not in consistent strings & that simply carried through to the race...



All in all, yes there were issues for all the riders but someone had to manage them better than others didn't they?



Cheers,

M

 

[povol]

Your last statement completely discredits you. I seriously doubt any sane person is thinking this at all. I'd say there are some insane people here, and the guy who comes immediately to mind is 'scotty' AKA Alphabet. (Surely, only an insne person can get so unglued at the thought of somebody's criticism of Stoner, hahaha, I'm still laugh at some of his posts). But other than that, I can't think of too many, even the most staunch boppers doing go ape .... like that. I'd say I have been the most vocal of disliking Pedro, and having him get hurt at any time in his career is not something that wonders into my mind.



As to the rest of your post, it was decent, and the line of logic is not unreasonable about the tires. But at Indy, the problem was that even the "hard" tires were too soft. Again, there may be a simple explanation, and I think Michael basically touched on it. That is, the tires have been to hard for the unusual cold season, but here at Indy, it got uncharacteristically cold. I may be stretching a bit, but perhaps, just perhaps, they saw the 10 day forecast and thought hurricane Irene might dumb on Indy. Because the tires, even the hard (and there were only two, hard and harder) were way too soft.

?

 

[povol]

Talps, with all due respect to Haydos ( & Jums ), you probably shouldn't have included Hayden & Capo in that example... Hayden has always used his tyres more heavily than the average rider & Loris has never come to "grips" with the Bridgestone control tyre from the moment that it was introduced...



Rossi as we all know has bigger problems on his plate than just the tyres, which might have been exacerbated by the track conditions on the weekend, which leaves only JLo...



And well, to be honest all thru practice & qualifying Jorge was struggling... He could put in the odd fast lap but not in consistent strings & that simply carried through to the race...



All in all, yes there were issues for all the riders but someone had to manage them better than others didn't they?



Cheers,

M

Exactly! Hayden chose the wrong tire, end of story. Rossi, supposedly had transmission problems, not tire problems, as you said, Capirossi struggles everywhere, which leaves Lorenzo. His teammate was out breaking track records during practice and qulaifying and generally being the second fastest rider on the track the whole weekend.

 

[Keshav]

In this case, I don't think your post was spawned by mindless Rossi worship, as the tires situation did appear extraordinary. But I'm not king on blaming the track, as some have done. The track is a fixture that must be negotiated. People complaining about the track (as even some of the riders did) is to me like saying, it has too many turns, or that turn bends too much, etc. Like Stoner and Lorenzo constantly complaining about the track. Even Casey saying the turns didn't open but continued to close, making it odd for him. The track is there as a challenge, isn't that what turns are for, to test the rider's ability to negotiate it? So to complain the turns are not to his liking is gay. And for other here to be blaming the track for the tire wear is just as ridiculous. I'm assuming Bstone had some time to figure out the characteristics of the new track surface. If they didn't, then they ...... up. And tire choice seemed like an exceptional enigma, on Ducati. Though it seems that Bstone brought out the Ducati-version-of-tires, that is--only usable in a very narrow band of setup/style.

Aside from issues of quality in the re-paving, Indy seems like a parking lot with a bit of banking. It's just a boring track. A lot of people think so. That being so subjective a statement, I'm sure those who like the place can find arguments to the contrary; but come the time the race is in Texas - I will bet you that all but the American riders (not wishing to alienate American fans) will when asked, say it sucked as a track and that they'll be happy never to return.

 

[Keshav]

Exactly! Hayden chose the wrong tire, end of story. Rossi, supposedly had transmission problems, not tire problems, as you said, Capirossi struggles everywhere, which leaves Lorenzo. His teammate was out breaking track records during practice and qulaifying and generally being the second fastest rider on the track the whole weekend.

The way things are progressing, I'd wager by the end of the season, Jorge will be overjoyed to be 2nd in points.

Me, I'm just praying that Yamaha finds some serious sponsorship dough for next year or we're gonna have another

year of Casey walking away with all the cash and prizes, without really having to fight for them.

 

[Jumkie]

?

Meant hot. The season has been cold, Indy was hot coupled with new track.



And regarding tires, yes Hayden picked wrong tire but that still shouldnt hav turned to cheese! Picking the wrong tire normaly means fade not tire failure. Saying Hayden just uses up tires more than others to explain this one is laughable. It was like he went out with a rain tire. I disagree that the tire deterioration was up to "normal" lack of rider preservation. It wasnt only Capi, but Abraham, Lorenzo, and Simonchelli. Thats three manufactures. Lorenzo's bike was kinder, Simo's bike was kinder than Ducs. But the tire wear was NOT normal. When guys use up their tires normally they fade, but not drop as bad as Simo, Nicky or retire like Capi & Abraham. So i disagree with u, Mental, and anybody else saying this was a normal case of riders managing or mismanaging tires. In fact, the multiple retirements should be a clue. Which other race hav we seen that this year? 3 guys pit. Simo gets swallowed by back markers. Ive seen Lorenzo fade before, and this was a mild case again, but still it was tire wear to blame.

 

[povol]

Aside from issues of quality in the re-paving, Indy seems like a parking lot with a bit of banking. It's just a boring track. A lot of people think so. That being so subjective a statement, I'm sure those who like the place can find arguments to the contrary; but come the time the race is in Texas - I will bet you that all but the American riders (not wishing to alienate American fans) will when asked, say it sucked as a track and that they'll be happy never to return.

Its not only a boring track for the riders, its a boring track for spectators. The funny thing is, its main attribute [ the front straight] is also its biggest wart. When you hear these bikes run down the front straight, which is basically a tunnel,it sends chills down your spine. After that, you see nothing if you chose to sit in that area because of the inside grandstand and the gaudy pavilion that runs the entire length of the front stretch.They do have nice big screens where you can watch the other 1.30 of each lap, but if i wanted to watch tv, i would stay at home. This year, for the first time in 4 years, we chose to sit in the outside grandstand across from turn 2, which gave us visual of turns 1-5, but we had to give up the sounds of magic of the front straight. What we did get to see is the majority of passes that were made in the entire race. It is what it is, and if it stays on the calendar, i will continue to go. If its replaced by Austin, it will make it harder for me to attend, but we will see. My attendance to an event is based on the time of year, distance to track, and expenditure to get there. Being in the boat business, i cannot take a week off in the middle of selling season. As it is now, the Indy race falls at a time of year when boat sales are dwindling, and its close enough to where i can make it a 3 day weekend and not pay a fortune in hotel bills or airfare. I still wish Barber and the FIM would get together and work something out. It is a magnificent facility that is fan friendly and the cost of making it a GP track would be minimal.Indy is hallowed ground to the people of Indianapolis, and a segment of open wheel racers. If your a fan of Indy car racing, and grew up watching the Indy 500, you do get a little sense of awe the first time you walk in the gates, but thats about it. They know how to put on an event, you have plenty of everything . Somewhat reasonably priced food and drink, bathroom facilities everywhere, plenty of hotel rooms at reasonable prices,and traffic control is down to a science. They are used to handling 3-400 hundred thousand for an event, 65k is childs play. Its just not a good venue for road racing, which is to bad, because everything else is top flight.

 

[povol]

Meant hot. The season has been cold, Indy was hot coupled with new track.



And regarding tires, yes Hayden picked wrong tire but that still shouldnt hav turned to cheese! Picking the wrong tire normaly means fade not tire failure. Saying Hayden just uses up tires more than others to explain this one is laughable. It was like he went out with a rain tire. I disagree that the tire deterioration was up to "normal" lack of rider preservation. It wasnt only Capi, but Abraham, Lorenzo, and Simonchelli. Thats three manufactures. Lorenzo's bike was kinder, Simo's bike was kinder than Ducs. But the tire wear was NOT normal. When guys use up their tires normally they fade, but not drop as bad as Simo, Nicky or retire like Capi & Abraham. So i disagree with u, Mental, and anybody else saying this was a normal case of riders managing or mismanaging tires. In fact, the multiple retirements should be a clue. Which other race hav we seen that this year? 3 guys pit. Simo gets swallowed by back markers. Ive seen Lorenzo fade before, and this was a mild case again, but still it was tire wear to blame.

Nicky was the only rider to choose the soft front. Knowing what they knew from day one, that was more than just a gamble, it was foolhardy. The chances of the tire totally giving up was almost guaranteed. The tire wear was not normal, but everyone knew after first practice that tire preservation was going to be key. Some took the data to heart , some didnt. If you look at track analysis, Lorenzo, Stoner, Dovi, Rossi, Spies and most of the field ran their fastest laps later in the race. The guys who had tire issues ran their fastest laps in the first 3-5 laps. That is telling dont you think. I think Nicky knew exactly what was going to happen Sunday. He had a choice, i can tool around on this POS in 10th all day, or i can give my fans something to cheer about for a few laps and finish about the same place. He chose to give his fans something to cheer about.

 

[xx CURVE xx]

 

[L8Braker]

Nicky was the only rider to choose the soft front. Knowing what they knew from day one, that was more than just a gamble, it was foolhardy. The chances of the tire totally giving up was almost guaranteed. The tire wear was not normal, but everyone knew after first practice that tire preservation was going to be key. Some took the data to heart , some didnt. If you look at track analysis, Lorenzo, Stoner, Dovi, Rossi, Spies and most of the field ran their fastest laps later in the race. The guys who had tire issues ran their fastest laps in the first 3-5 laps. That is telling dont you think. I think Nicky knew exactly what was going to happen Sunday. He had a choice, i can tool around on this POS in 10th all day, or i can give my fans something to cheer about for a few laps and finish about the same place. He chose to give his fans something to cheer about.

Pov...Nicky mentioned in the post race that he went with that option because that particular tire was not wearing any worse than the harder tire on Saturday...or something like that. He still knew it was a gamble but it was not entirely a wild guess. I think he would have had the same issue on the hard front, just a few laps later though.

Ducati have to be pulling their hair out, I mean you go from getting no heat into the front to almost riding on the carcus...FTW!

 

[povol]

Pov...Nicky mentioned in the post race that he went with that option because that particular tire was not wearing any worse than the harder tire on Saturday...or something like that. He still knew it was a gamble but it was not entirely a wild guess. I think he would have had the same issue on the hard front, just a few laps later though.

Ducati have to be pulling their hair out, I mean you go from getting no heat into the front to almost riding on the carcus...FTW!

If that is so, [ i have not heard that] it still doesnt explain how Rossi's bike managed the tires and Nicky' s would not. It has to be riding style and /or set up, not some tire conspiracy. Sic and Nicky are notoriously hard on tires, and Lorenzo never found the set up. Like someone else said, the track and track conditions are obstacles for participants to navigate. Its the same for everyone, lets give kudos to the ones who figured it out, and leave the excuses to the one who didnt.



I think this is the quote you are referring to.



Yesterday in qualifying, I was able to make the soft tire last, but the first few laps (of the race) I was going so hard, after about seven or eight laps I destroyed it.



That sounds like an admission that he went to hard to fast, and cooked the tire In his desperation to show good at home.