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The formula has changed in as far as there are riders who don't need everything going their way to challenge and beat Rossi. The formula has changed from dumbed down torque machines to highly strung highly complex race bikes that require a skill set that perhaps your guy is no longer the best at. I have said it for a while, the sport has moved on from Rossi and his style of sit back and wait till 3 laps to go and then blast everyone away and you and the yellow army don't like it. I used to enjoy this style of Rossi's as well but I also grew tired of it because I found it incredibly predictable just like I find Nascar and Indy Car predictable because I know that there is always going to be a yellow flag that is going to bunch the field up again so I can't get excited about someone putting in fast laps and pulling away.







I bet that if you polled fans of all the riders as to who owns a motor bike Rossi fans would be the lowest percentage.





Your calling an RC211V a dumbed down torgue Machine????.......how come Stoner couldn't successfully ride it then? After all the best rider on the planet shouldn't have had any issues with such a successful and easy to ride machine which is arguably the best race bike ever made? Oh equipment that's right.....tyres wasn't it...sound familiar?



Desmosidici 990 with 250+ horsepower a dumbed down torgue Machine???? WTF, your calling me delusional......ask Bayliss how easy it was to ride and how dumbed down it was



Did you ever actually see a 990 race? Probably not as I imagine you only started watching midway through 2007.



Your highly strung overly complex 800's are the most unpopular format ever, so much so that they have already been scraped prematurely....and Rossi has won 2 of these titles......hard to not be considered the best at it then, and will always be one of two. Stoner will only equal this record if he wins it this year....



Speaking of complexity you're right the game has changed....and its firmly in the hands of the manufactures as F1 was a few seasons back, which is why its rubbish....







And the last statement belies belief.........









Don't worry Squigs...some of it is a just and thoroughly deserved wind up....its been a bit boring around here....much like the racing
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Rossi? Not the Rossi we know. Is it really just the bike? Or has he lost the sacred fire? It certainly looks like sunset boulevard for him now. I surely hoped (hope) it would happen later.



Not really its a combination of the Ducati not being great and Rossi now having competition he has never had before.
 
Not really its a combination of the Ducati not being great and Rossi now having competition he has never had before.



Sure, although the competition was already there in 2008 and 2009. Now the competition has matured further, especially Stoner, plus, he is not growing any younger, and last year he had serious accidents he never had before. Still, I hope he can overcome all these problems, including the Ducati he obviously doesn't like, and come back for another couple of seasons. I think he's missed up there with Stoner &C...
 
Your calling an RC211V a dumbed down torgue Machine????.......how come Stoner couldn't successfully ride it then? After all the best rider on the planet shouldn't have had any issues with such a successful and easy to ride machine which is arguably the best race bike ever made? Oh equipment that's right.....tyres wasn't it...sound familiar?



Desmosidici 990 with 250+ horsepower a dumbed down torgue Machine???? WTF, your calling me delusional......ask Bayliss how easy it was to ride and how dumbed down it was



Did you ever actually see a 990 race? Probably not as I imagine you only started watching midway through 2007.



Your highly strung overly complex 800's are the most unpopular format ever, so much so that they have already been scraped prematurely....and Rossi has won 2 of these titles......hard to not be considered the best at it then, and will always be one of two. Stoner will only equal this record if he wins it this year....



Speaking of complexity you're right the game has changed....and its firmly in the hands of the manufactures as F1 was a few seasons back, which is why its rubbish....







And the last statement belies belief.........









Don't worry Squigs...some of it is a just and thoroughly deserved wind up....its been a bit boring around here....much like the racing
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An alternative hypothesis which fits the observed events at least as well as yours is that stoner rides mistake free and smashes the field when on a bike close to parity with the field and over-rides poor bikes to exceptional results at the cost of dnfs
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Stoner if he has equal titles to rossi in the 800 era will have considerably more wins, and all of rossi's wins will be on the bike with the most wins in the 800 formula.
 
If all you did was watch the race as broadcast then I can understand how it looked pretty boring...but if you watched the live timing and had a charging horse in the race (spies being my rider of interest) you would have seen something entirely different. To go from that horrible start (for spies) and then watch the race unfold within the numbers of the live timing screen...you would have witnessed something pretty amazing and exciting.
 
the qualifying was one of the best i have every witnessed. Stoner was 0.5 seconds clear of the field and was still wanting to improve. at one stage flying over the curbing on the straight.anyone who says hes boring is brain dead, i can watch stoner ride all day long even if its by himself and wont get bored. the level of commitment he brings is unmatched by any other rider







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Lorezo stealin Speis setup



Jorge Lorenzo was also well below par and spoke of a Championship already lost: “This year I’ve won two races, both times in particular circumstances. The truth is that Stoner and his Honda are stronger. It will be hard to keep up with him. Here in Indianapolis fourth place is more than we expected: I finished with a destroyed front tyre after a disastrous weekend. If all goes well and nothing out of the ordinary happens, the best we can do is finish second.” Then there was an admission about their set up. “I tried the settings of both Colin Edwards and Ben Spies before going with Ben’s in the end, but my front tyre became damaged while his was perfect. Honda’s power? They have two great riders with incredible talent who are going very well, a bike that’s very strong in the straight, and incredible speed. They have more tradition than us. We on the other hand, have good acceleration and are good on the bends, but that’s not enough to beat them.”
 
Spies is known for being really good at managing his tires, so it's not that surprising I guess. I am glad to see they are at least getting along well enough that the sharing of data is happening when one of them is needing a bit of help nailing it down.
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I for one would love to see a race or two a year that actually had the teams work together to get an overall result (kind of like grand am racing). Some people may laugh, but could you imagine a relay of sorts where each guy runs half the race and they work out a strategy that plays upon the strengths of both riders. That would be pretty cool to see. Maybe that would go some of the way in creating a better "team" environment in some of the more disagreeable garages...but maybe not.
 
Lorezo stealin Speis setup

Its only stealing if the other guy doesn't know. Its collaboration if they agree.



Spies answered the question for difference in tire wear, he said it was a difference in riding style.
 
I'm not convinced that HRC is to blame for that. I think SuperSic (Segno Il Cervello) manages to do that all by himself.

In your post race entry you mentioned it was tire deterioration. Are you saying he chewed them up because he didn't manage them properly? As in rider mistake, period?



...Simoncelli ran out of tires just as he closed on Lorenzo. An aborted pass on lap 5 proved the turning point, Simoncelli going backwards from that point onwards, joining Nicky Hayden as they went backwards through the field. Simoncelli's fall was down to tires deteriorating in the heat...
 
In your post race entry you mentioned it was tire deterioration. Are you saying he chewed them up because he didn't manage them properly? As in rider mistake, period?



How is it that Sic's tyres deteriorated so badly, and the other Factory Honda's looked completely fine? I thought this rubber didn't wear? Seems it only wears for some, surely you can't cite Rider error in all of the cases on the weekend considering the caliber of the riders that it happened to........somebody needs to force the issue on tyre competition again.
 
4 or 5 riders consistently? What ....... planet do you live on. Stoner has won 7 of 12 races this year. So what the others are that bad they can't set their bikes up? How the hell did they get a ride in MotoGP. Better sack their teams as well. Mate you are delusional.



The formula has changed in as far as there are riders who don't need everything going their way to challenge and beat Rossi. The formula has changed from dumbed down torque machines to highly strung highly complex race bikes that require a skill set that perhaps your guy is no longer the best at. I have said it for a while, the sport has moved on from Rossi and his style of sit back and wait till 3 laps to go and then blast everyone away and you and the yellow army don't like it.



Stoner is the fastest guy out there, but the Stoner-factor is smaller than you imagine. At certain venues like Phillip Island or Qatar, Stoner is worth .5 a lap, but I think the Brno testing times gave us a demonstration of his abilities on a level playing field. On any given Sunday, Stoner is worth .1-.2 per lap against the other aliens, imo, and while his prodigious skill would still equate to 3 second victories, it isn't the 5-10 second slaughterfests we've grown to dislike. Lopsided victories of that magnitude should be blamed on the 2011 transmission, which has started to show its true fuel saving potential after a half season of development. Stoner and Pedrosa ride different bikes. Stoner is getting his dialed in. Pedrosa is still riding around the limitations of his chassis preferences.



If MotoGP has passed Rossi by, you might want to tell the riders. They seem anxious to ride the dumbed-down torque machines. If MotoGP has passed Rossi by, the durable Bridgestones are the culprit.
 
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What an absolute disgrace......all I kept thinking was, imagine if your an American motorsport fan who doesn't see Motogp often or ever and you turn on, or turn up to watch something which is for them, essentially a sprint race, only to witness a procession worse than what is seen over 100 laps in any nascar event, probably the most boring 40 minutes they've seen all year....with 1 pass for the lead, I guess we were lucky for that at least
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I presume you were flamed for this post, but that's only because your reputation proceeds you, however, I think you made some valid points, this part above wasn't one of them. But wait, there is more below. But first, the race was not processional, there were plenty of riders going backwards, which means there was overtaking by default. With the exception of one of the riders, who was actually going forward, albeit after sinking like a brick in the first lap. So some of those riders falling back were overtaken by default in a hair raising manner. Btw, Nascar has plenty of passing, in fact, several changes can be made in one lap. Anyway, I don't think this was the most "boring" race of the season, though the race at the front was processional.





Not only that, you witness more than half of the field suffer from horrendous failure from their Rubber, which is apparently equally supplied to all teams by only the one manufacture.......from what I can see of this race...this is not the case at all. How is that Ducati managed to have 4 of their six riders fail to finish? And the other two struggle to even get the bike to turn at all? Now any reasonable motorsports fan would of course ask, shouldn't the rubber be at least good enough to let the riders finish the race?



Here is where you started to make more sense, though you combined it with a bit of what on the surface may look like a suggestion of conspiracy. I agree, there was a horrendous tire failure, but it was partly not picking the right choice in tire hampered by not having a real tire choice to make. The fact that riders had to choose from "hard" to harder" doesn't make much sense if the "hard" tire is going to turn into cottage cheese. Its tantamount to giving a choice behind two hidden doors, behind one is some ....., behind the other is a prison rapist. Pick the wrong one and your .......



I don't think I would go down that rode that its a tire conspiracy, especially YOU. But I do think that the tires choices certainly were not up to the task. I think Bstone got caught out a bit, and probably could have brought an asymmetrical tire. Usually, a tire choice is a bit of race strategy for minor differences in set up and riding style, in this case it seemed like your choices were the equivalent of rain tires in the dry if you picked the wrong one.



However, I will say that you may not have been the only one that thought the tire allocation (or what I think is a tire development issue) was a bit suspect. I forgot the name of the Ducati principal who said it needed to be "investigated".







How is it that the repsol Honda's looked absolutely incredible in comparison to anyone else? Both Stoner and Pedrosa didn't look like they ran wide once, even slightly....and Dovi put his fastest laps in at the end of the race and was unlucky not to get Jorge.....yet Sic looked like he was riding on standard road tyres for the majority of the race? Jorge looked as though he'd taken out the wrong bike and picked up Marco Melandri's R1 instead........except with worse rubber....and Rossi, well......why bother? You could actually understand it if there was a tyre war, and certain rubber didn't perform at certain tracks....but this is ridiculous.



It did remind me of the difference in tire wear among the participants when Michelin completely got it wrong at Laguna, and Bstone were perfect. It did seem like there were suddenly two specs of tires. And though it 'seemed' that way, and certainly at face value you are correct in saying it was odd, and anybody not seeing this is blind, it doesn't mean there was a conspiracy. It could actually be explained. I would explain it with Honda being very smooth coupled with the riding style of those riders who somehow preserved the tire. Simo was on a factory Honda, just like Pedro/Stoner, and he faded as bad as Nicky. This is a guy who's pace has matched the Honda Repsol guys all year. So its here where I think you have some basis to point out the tire deterioration being exceptionally odd, a dichotomy invoking further thought (and I disagree with anybody suggesting it was ordinary tire degradation). It certainly was astonishingly unusual for there to be multiple rider retirements and not just on Ducati, but reports of unsual tire wear by Lorenzo Yamaha and Simo Honda as well. Perhaps those who flamed Crutchlow for coming in on previous occasion because of a bum tire may owe him an apology?



...



Its not until you really think about it from another perspective, you realize what a state this series is in.......and this is coming from a long term fan.



In this case, I don't think your post was spawned by mindless Rossi worship, as the tires situation did appear extraordinary. But I'm not king on blaming the track, as some have done. The track is a fixture that must be negotiated. People complaining about the track (as even some of the riders did) is to me like saying, it has too many turns, or that turn bends too much, etc. Like Stoner and Lorenzo constantly complaining about the track. Even Casey saying the turns didn't open but continued to close, making it odd for him. The track is there as a challenge, isn't that what turns are for, to test the rider's ability to negotiate it? So to complain the turns are not to his liking is gay. And for other here to be blaming the track for the tire wear is just as ridiculous. I'm assuming Bstone had some time to figure out the characteristics of the new track surface. If they didn't, then they ...... up. And tire choice seemed like an exceptional enigma, on Ducati. Though it seems that Bstone brought out the Ducati-version-of-tires, that is--only usable in a very narrow band of setup/style.
 
In your post race entry you mentioned it was tire deterioration. Are you saying he chewed them up because he didn't manage them properly? As in rider mistake, period?

I was just taking a pop at Simoncelli. Crashing or coming 7th is neither big nor clever. Eating up your tires (on your factory Honda, while everyone else keeps theirs intact) is pretty dumb. But his crew probably have to take some of the blame for that too.



Here's the thing I've said about Simoncelli all along: He doesn't have the intelligence to be a champion among the big boys. He gets his ... handed to him by Dovizioso week in and week out because Dovi manages the race and uses his nous. Simoncelli flies in like a priapic teenager and blows his load before he's got the race's knickers off (thanks MichaelM - I think).
 
How is it that Sic's tyres deteriorated so badly, and the other Factory Honda's looked completely fine? I thought this rubber didn't wear? Seems it only wears for some, surely you can't cite Rider error in all of the cases on the weekend considering the caliber of the riders that it happened to........somebody needs to force the issue on tyre competition again.





So can you show us the comments/text that suggests that other honda riders did not have issues with the tyres ??



Or is this assessment just from your very keen eye... CS said he lost the front end whilst pushing for position.... So this suggests he gad issues but rode around them. As would have spies and dani.



Randy drops the bike religously every time he throws his leg over it. So with the resurfacing many thought he would be the first to throw it away...... but he actually put together an admirable ride on a satellite bike without the revised forks and special bits and you would agree far less ability than your #46 !! So explain how this occured with every other duc going backwards ??



Where is it written that rubber doesnt wear ??



You have lost it talp much like your #46..

 
How is it that Sic's tyres deteriorated so badly, and the other Factory Honda's looked completely fine? I thought this rubber didn't wear? Seems it only wears for some, surely you can't cite Rider error in all of the cases on the weekend considering the caliber of the riders that it happened to........somebody needs to force the issue on tyre competition again.



Its interesting you mention this. At this stage I would have to agree, with the caveat that if Ducati is to stay as a manufacture in the series. Otherwise, ban Ducati, or downgrade them to a CRT team next year. But I had this thought this weekend. You might not like it, BUT IF DUCATI WERE SMART, THEY WOULD DEMAND AT TIRE WAR OR THREATEN TO LEAVE THE SPORT. It worked for Rossi! So props to him, Ducati could learn a thing or two from his savvy skills of twisting the ears of the series. Now losing Rossi at the time "in Jeremy Burgess' words, would have made 'the crisis phones ring' at Dorna headquarters, now imagine having 5 of the 17 bikes leave? When Rossi demanded the Bstones, he threatened to leave. Dorna was forced to force the hand of Bstone into supplying Rossi, after they said it wouldn't (all well documented series of events). The response by Ducati was to plead to be allowed to work with Michelin. They didn't get their wish, and why would they, Stoner wasn't that important to keep on the box. It seems Ducati were not savvy enough to realize back then that this would be more detrimental to them, as a racing company, then they could ever imagine (which today they seem to be waking up to the nightmare). But again, in their defense, they did publicly request to work with Michelin.



So today, if I could have the ear of the Ducati principals, I would tell them to threaten Dorna with leaving the sport unless they were given the opportunity to work with Michelin. This would certainly help them. And why not, if its true that Honda manipulates the rules making for their benefit since they field so many bikes, why not Ducati do a bit of strong arming?
 
While Pedrosa hasn't had any tyre wear problems this season, Stoner certainly did at Mugello & Sachsenring.

It seems setup to minimise tyre wear is critical at some circuits for both the Honda & Yamaha. The Ducati's were probably screwed regardless of setup although Randy & Barbera did not suffer as much as the other Ducati's did.
 
I was just taking a pop at Simoncelli. Crashing or coming 7th is neither big nor clever. Eating up your tires (on your factory Honda, while everyone else keeps theirs intact) is pretty dumb. But his crew probably have to take some of the blame for that too. Here's the thing I've said about Simoncelli all along: He doesn't have the intelligence to be a champion among the big boys. He gets his ... handed to him by Dovizioso week in and week out because Dovi manages the race and uses his nous. Simoncelli flies in like a priapic teenager and blows his load before he's got the race's knickers off (thanks MichaelM - I think).



Yes, and rightly so to an extent, I figured that, but there is still the severe tire deterioration. I know we don't have many finished races to draw from this year, but this fade seemed rather exceptional. Not beating Dovi is fine and all, but he got swallowed up by the back markers in a hurry near the end. His crew partly to blame. When you say "crew" does that include the Bstone tech?
 
While Pedrosa hasn't had any tyre wear problems this season, Stoner certainly did at Mugello & Sachsenring. It seems setup to minimise tyre wear is critical at some circuits for both the Honda & Yamaha. The Ducati's were probably screwed regardless of setup although Randy & Barbera did not suffer as much as the other Ducati's did.



Excellent point! And its the one I was bumbling and struggling to make. I think Stoner and Pedro, and to a lesser degree Spies got the right setting or at least style to preserve the tires at Indy, which it seems was a bit of a "new" track (well, at least the surface was). Its not saying that Stoner isn't fast, as some have tried to poo poo the suggestion that tires were an extraordinary issue at Indy mistaking it for Stoner bashing (though the source is certainly known for it). But I completely agree, that's why I described the tire choice as oxygen or cyanide, or better put, the Ducati version of operating band--that is extremely narrow.
 

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