hondas pneumatic will race at mugello

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 21 2008, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly Hayden's riding has been subpar this year he's nearly binned it on two race days.

But can we be serious for a second?

How do you expect a 70 kg rider to make time on an underpowered bike? He can't carry more speed through the turns than Pedrosa and he can't get the bike stood up while he's trying not to slow down at the apex.

Colin said getting the new pneumatic valve engine was the best thing for his career. The bike is now configured for maximum traction, and Colin can hammer on the breaks all the way to the apex. Hayden surely needs the same thing to be able to reproduce good results.

Hayden needs at least another 10 kph on the top and another 10 hp throughout the entire rev range.

Wait a minute...there is more to it than just an underpowered bike and a 'heavy' rider?

You look at the speed trap data for China, Jerez and France average speeds in the race and you will see that Dani and Nicky are same and in each case. Nicky speed is classed as greater than Dani's speed. The traps are usually on straights, so by your account of 70 kilos and an underpowered bike theory Nicky should be going slower than Dani....So far Nicky has been slower only at 1 race this was Qatar. In Qatar Nicky definitely had the shte bike, but every other race his speed has been greater or same to Dani's. During practice Nicky struggles with top speed, but on Race day he's a demon. Nicky qualifies well and has the speed on Race day...so you can't we can't just say a faster more powerful bike will suddenly sort out Nicky's woes...

Honesly, you could put Nicky on the Ducati or Yamaha, and unless he changes his riding style to suit the difference in power to carry more corner speed, then no amount of extra horse power is going to help him in future.

Pneumatics won't sort out going fast around corners for someone that does not ride in an smooth fast flowing way. All the pneumatics will do is help with accelaration out of the corner, but his style still loses time going through corners then he will still be a mid-packer (no matter how much he weighs).


The autosport article and Nicky's quotes say exactly the problem...he has not been able to adapt his style.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smokey @ May 21 2008, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Autosport article about Nicky

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67592



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Sorry, some required files are missing, if you intended to view a topic, it's possible that it's been moved or deleted. Please go back and try again.

freaking nood

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ May 21 2008, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wait a minute...there is more to it than just an underpowered bike and a 'heavy' rider?

Pneumatics won't sort out going fast around corners for someone that does not ride in an smooth fast flowing way. All the pneumatics will do is help with accelaration out of the corner, but his style still loses time going through corners then he will still be a mid-packer (no matter how much he weighs).


The autosport article and Nicky's quotes say exactly the problem...he has not been able to adapt his style.

And I think he is wrong when he says the new pnumatic engine will have enough power. What he need is not top end but grunt at the midrange and that's not going to happen with the pnumatic engine. He will get more top end and more revs, but hardly any gain in midrange.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 21 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And I think he is wrong when he says the new pnumatic engine will have enough power. What he need is not top end but grunt at the midrange and that's not going to happen with the pnumatic engine. He will get more top end and more revs, but hardly any gain in midrange.

Nicky over everything else REALLY needs to change his style. I can't see why every other rider has been able to adapt, and he's stuck in his old ways.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 21 2008, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And I think he is wrong when he says the new pnumatic engine will have enough power. What he need is not top end but grunt at the midrange and that's not going to happen with the pnumatic engine. He will get more top end and more revs, but hardly any gain in midrange.

You are right (I was wrong) and being the case that no more accelation will come from pneumaitcs then Nicky is not going to improve unless he rides like a 250 racers....Inabilty to adapt is his undoing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 21 2008, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky over everything else REALLY needs to change his style. I can't see why every other rider has been able to adapt, and he's stuck in his old ways.

Are we back to the Natural Talent discussion?

In 2006 hayden was good enough; the club of premier class world champions is an exclusive one, so his fans should be proud, and who cares what else he does? As I recall in 2006 dani pedrosa was on a fairly similar bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ May 21 2008, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In 2006 hayden was good enough; the club of premier class world champions is an exclusive one, so his fans should be proud, and who cares what else he does? As I recall in 2006 dani pedrosa was on a fairly similar bike.

Have you not seen the heated Evo bike discussion?!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 21 2008, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have you not seen the heated Evo bike discussion?!
Thats why I said fairly similar as you no doubt realised. Emoticons are a bit much for me at this time of night.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 21 2008, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky over everything else REALLY needs to change his style. I can't see why every other rider has been able to adapt, and he's stuck in his old ways.

I can understand the changing of styles but Please explain the bold part because I can think of a number of riders struggling with adaptation. Or else this was just another weightless remark.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 21 2008, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky over everything else REALLY needs to change his style. I can't see why every other rider has been able to adapt, and he's stuck in his old ways.

You people crack me up, do you ever go back and watch the old stuff.

Nicky's style is hugely different than it was when he entered motogp. In fact, I would say that his constant adaptation has created a mixed bag of results for him.

He needs pneumatics so his bike doesn't have to dump extra fuel into the cylinders to tow him around.

I also don't understand why some on here aren't grasping the similarities to Colin. Colin had the bike set up to carry cornerspeed. When you laid the Tech 3 on its side it sailed through corners and held momentum. Now that he has the pneumatic engine he has increased the "bite" of the front tire to make it go around bends better.

It enables him to brake to the apex and then power out. He doesn't have to carry as much cornerspeed b/c the bike can tow him now.

Nicky needs the same thing.

Besides why would he spend time adapting again? The 800s will soon be as powerful as the 990s. They won't have the same smooth bottom end hit, but then, no one will use the bottom end anyway.

Cornerspeed is hot right now, but DORNA will probably not change the formula again, the only they will do is start screwing with the tires or ban TC.

I know ya'll think I'm kidding but they changed the formula to increase safety. What we have now is a sport that is far more dangerous to fallen riders than it was just a few years ago.

I dunno, after reading that article about Nicky I honestly don't think the pneumatic's will help him that much. Unless I'm missing something about pneumatic valves?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ May 21 2008, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I can understand the changing of styles but Please explain the bold part because I can think of a number of riders struggling with adaptation. Or else this was just another weightless remark.

If you think I'm a troll then you're very much mistaken.

Fine, look at riders like Vermeulen or Toseland. Both come from superbike backgrounds and haven't had major issues adapting to the 800cc formula which many riders knowledge require a 250cc style.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 21 2008, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you think I'm a troll then you're very much mistaken.

Fine, look at riders like Vermeulen or Toseland. Both come from superbike backgrounds and haven't had major issues adapting to the 800cc formula which many riders knowledge require a 250cc style.
Weightless. Look at the points and results and tell me who is not struggling, we will go from there.



"...."

That look says it all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 21 2008, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> You people crack me up, do you ever go back and watch the old stuff.

Nicky's style is hugely different than it was when he entered motogp. In fact, I would say that his constant adaptation has created a mixed bag of results for him.

He needs pneumatics so his bike doesn't have to dump extra fuel into the cylinders to tow him around.

I also don't understand why some on here aren't grasping the similarities to Colin. Colin had the bike set up to carry cornerspeed. When you laid the Tech 3 on its side it sailed through corners and held momentum. Now that he has the pneumatic engine he has increased the "bite" of the front tire to make it go around bends better.

It enables him to brake to the apex and then power out. He doesn't have to carry as much cornerspeed b/c the bike can tow him now.

Nicky needs the same thing.

Besides why would he spend time adapting again? The 800s will soon be as powerful as the 990s. They won't have the same smooth bottom end hit, but then, no one will use the bottom end anyway.

"I'm not looking for excuses, the problem is mine: I haven't yet been able to adapt my riding style to the 800cc. I'm not happy, it's a tough period for me," Hayden was quoted as saying by Motosprint magazine.

"At the end of last year I thought I had solved my problems, but I was wrong. In the second half of last season my results weren't very good, but it was also down to some bad luck. I had managed to use the bike in the best way.

"This Honda doesn't have enough power for my riding style: I come from dirt tracks, I need to make the bike skid by using the throttle. To do that you need a lot of horsepower and great acceleration.

"The decrease in power and the different power output have put me in great difficulty."

Hayden, who last won a race in the 2006 US Grand Prix, reckons he is struggling because of his lack of experience in lesser categories.

"Pedrosa comes from the 125cc and 250cc classes, so he's used to look for linearity in the trajectory and he knows how to keep a higher speed through corners," he added. "So his riding style is very much suited to the 800cc.

"I don't ride that way, for me you need to brake hard and then make the bike turn with the gas, by skidding, in order to get good turn exit speed under acceleration.

"I need engines with a lot of power and the new (pneumatic valves) one should have enough. But I agree with the HRC engineers, who say we should wait a bit longer: we at the factory team will get this bike only once it goes really well and it's reliable."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ May 21 2008, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"I'm not looking for excuses, the problem is mine: I haven't yet been able to adapt my riding style to the 800cc. I'm not happy, it's a tough period for me," Hayden was quoted as saying by Motosprint magazine.

Nicky says it himself and his fans still think and says it the bike fault ....go figure!

And I thought Biaggi fans were out of their trees!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ May 21 2008, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky says it himself and his fans still think and says it the bike fault ....go figure!

And I thought Biaggi fans were out of their trees!


the bike is designed " PURPOSEFULLY " for a midget...not for Nick

"This Honda doesn't have enough power for my riding style: I come from dirt tracks, I need to make the bike skid by using the throttle. To do that you need a lot of horsepower and great acceleration."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ May 21 2008, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> You people crack me up, do you ever go back and watch the old stuff.

Nicky's style is hugely different than it was when he entered motogp. In fact, I would say that his constant adaptation has created a mixed bag of results for him.

He needs pneumatics so his bike doesn't have to dump extra fuel into the cylinders to tow him around.
Accroding to himself he needed the extra power. I'm still wondering what he want to do with the few extra ponnies at 18 000rpm mid corner. But I guess that's a different matter.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I also don't understand why some on here aren't grasping the similarities to Colin. Colin had the bike set up to carry cornerspeed. When you laid the Tech 3 on its side it sailed through corners and held momentum. Now that he has the pneumatic engine he has increased the "bite" of the front tire to make it go around bends better.

It enables him to brake to the apex and then power out. He doesn't have to carry as much cornerspeed b/c the bike can tow him now.
What are you talking about here?
Edwards was not out of it before he got the pnumatic engine, he and JT were just slow on the straights. I have nither seen or heard about any major setup changes, quite the oposite, they said the bike worked well and now they got the engine too carry it over the straights.

So, I guess you are the only one who see the similarities. Wonder why

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 21 2008, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Accroding to himself he needed the extra power. I'm still wondering what he want to do with the few extra ponnies at 18 000rpm mid corner. But I guess that's a different matter.

What are you talking about here?
Edwards was not out of it before he got the pnumatic engine, he and JT were just slow on the straights. I have nither seen or heard about any major setup changes, quite the oposite, they said the bike worked well and now they got the engine too carry it over the straights.

So, I guess you are the only one who see the similarities. Wonder why

Now you know why I never listen to your never-ending pleas for quotations--I have a job to do when I'm not posting.

If I have to substantiate everything I post on here it indicates to me you infrequently read any literature on the sport.

But, this recent Colin interview was from this months Road Racing World, so I guess I can't fault you for missing out on that one.

BTW I wasn't trying to say that Nicky's style has been successfully adapted. I was offering a rebuttal to the hordes of people who say he won't change his style. In fact, change his style has been part of his seasonal routine since he entered MotoGP in 2003.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ May 21 2008, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the bike is designed " PURPOSEFULLY " for a midget...not for Nick

"This Honda doesn't have enough power for my riding style: I come from dirt tracks, I need to make the bike skid by using the throttle. To do that you need a lot of horsepower and great acceleration."


So change the bike to suit his inefficient fuel consuming tyre destroying style....Good luck to him, I hope he gets exactly what he wants from HRC....just like Biaggi did in 2005