Honda threatens to quit MotoGP

Keshav said:

I don't think it's about neutering the sport. Allowing the riders to be a greater percentage of what determines outcome is good. I would replace the word balls with the word talent. I don't think anyone racing at this level can seriously be called wusses. It has been pointed out ad nauseum that the riders themselves are champing at the bit to done with excessive electronic aids and the riders by all rights can be said to have the best perspective on what makes the sport great.

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The two rules that forced motogp into an electronic war were the fuel limit and control tire imo. Creating yet another rule to compensate does not address the cause.

I would have thought the example of Spies vs Lorenzo provides ample evidence of the rider being the greater percentage of what determines the outcome. Many said Lorenzo wouldnt be able to handle a 1000. Many still say Lorenzo would struggle on an old 990 without electronics. I say Lorenzo evolves, to be whatever he needs to be. Spies needs to follow suit or risk becoming another SBK dinosour.

If they just leave the rules alone, the sport will naturally evolve towards closer racing. Think 990 as an example: which year was better 2002 or 2006? In four years the others evolved into a match for Honda, rather than Honda being handicapped into a Suzuki.

michaelm said:

We have discussed this ad infinitum, and I don't know what the answer is (other than whatever suits the rider you support perhaps, or getting rid of what doesn't suit him), but I am fairly sure it is not changing the rules every 3 months if you don't like who is winning, or nasbike. As I have said previously, you could very likely achieve close racing by picking 20 guys with bike licences at random from the crowd, and putting them on 250 honda street bikes. It wouldn't be premier class racing though.

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Lex gave the answer imo. Replace the fuel rule, the bore rule, the 4 cylinder rule, the control ecu idea, the CRT rule with one simple engine rev limit, easily enforceable and measurable with a dyno. Twins become competitive again, we get variety, factories get to develop electronics, privateers get a number of engine options because fancy valves which will never be used on streetbikes become obsolete.

cliché guevara said:

whos talking about nasbike and close racing?i'm talking about getting rid of rider aids to let the talent shine through.

i'm a bit tired of my ideas solely taken as suggesting to dumb it down when in fact it would make it much more difficult because it brings back many of the skills which are now obsolete

also funny that you mention its not the solution if i don't like whos winning. i think my favorite rider does quite well at the moment but to be clear, if there is a doubt i have about his ability it would have to be throttle control.sadly it doesn't seem like i will ever know if he could ride this smooth without tc.



its funny that its just stoner fanboys reacting outraged to the suggestion to give back more control to the riders.

of all the riders, in my mind he'd gain the most.

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Yes, I am a stoner fanboy and anticipated your response. I am not saying I like the current formula, and the electronic aids in particular, and nor avowedly does stoner. However it is if anything harder to get the last few percent from these bikes than previous bikes, and I am sick of people saying that winning on them is somehow less a reflection of riding talent; cf stoner vs pedrosa, dovi, and simoncelli last year, lorenzo vs spies thus far this year, stoner on a ducati 800 vs rossi on a ducati 800, and yes it would appear on current evidence lorenzo on this year's tyres vs stoner on this year's tyres.



I also think that constantly changing the rules is the worst thing for the sport, both for competition within it and cost.



I had an open mind about whether dorna were doing anything concerted or just being incompetent as usual, but the recent announcement (unless it was misreported, I was overseas) that only the new tyres can be used after silverstone removed most of them. Honda would seem to agree with me.

michaelm said:

Yes, I am a stoner fanboy and anticipated your response. I am not saying I like the current formula, and the electronic aids in particular, and nor avowedly does stoner. However it is if anything harder to get the last few percent from these bikes than previous bikes, and I am sick of people saying that winning on them is somehow less a reflection of riding talent; cf stoner vs pedrosa, dovi, and simoncelli last year, lorenzo vs spies thus far this year, stoner on a ducati 800 vs rossi on a ducati 800, and yes it would appear on current evidence lorenzo on this year's tyres vs stoner on this year's tyres.



I also think that constantly changing the rules is the worst thing for the sport, both for competition within it and cost.



I had an open mind about whether dorna were doing anything concerted or just being incompetent as usual, but the recent announcement (unless it was misreported, I was overseas) that only the new tyres can be used after silverstone removed most of them. Honda would seem to agree with me.

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The tires are just fine and Honda was trying to throw it's weight around. Even your own guy said he wants to stop talking about the tires, it is what it is and they'll figure it out. They also seem to have made big steps with the chatter according to CS and like he said they knew they were going to have the chatter because they had it during winter testing. Honda is trying to turn this into a big issue and some are falling for it. The tires were voted on and I'm sure BS has a contract that says they aren't going to supply two different tires, should we bend the rules for them, a team that's constantly winning and putting in top practice and qualy times...poor poor Honda

I don't see how Jlo is better with these tires compared to CS and it seems he learned his lesson on at least giving the soft front a try, looks like he did damn good on it to.

Cliche we are reading what you are saying and you either don't understand the sport or you don't understand what you are saying.



You have repeatedly commented that by decreasing HP and removing rider aids it will allow the good guys to shine as apposed to electronics allowing anyone to shine. Well reality significantly contradicts what you are saying. Right now with all the electronics only a few guys are able to ride the bike to the limit. I have no doubt at all the Lorenzo or Stoner would finish in the same places were they on the respective satellite bikes. Why because they are just better riders. The same would apply if the bikes had no electronic controls and greatly reduced HP. They would still win.



So this then leaves the debate as to what sort of bike you want to see running. I want one that continuously is butting up against the edge of the laws of physics. I want one that is the fast bike that is possible with mankind's knowledge of engineering. Why do I want this? 2 reasons: 1) MotoGP is the pinnacle of the sport and therefore should be out there pushing the edge of performance constantly forward. 2) Because I want to see the best riders riding bikes that are at that same edge of performance.



If MotoGP is not achieving either of these things then what is the point of it. Lets just get rid of it and allow WSBK to be the pinnacle.



In a previous post you said that "NOTHING from MotoGP translates to road bikes". This is just another reason why it appears you have very little concept or understanding of MotoGP because you could not be further from the truth.



Post #49 in this thread

if dorna would realize this they could tell the manufacturers to f-off to superbikes if they want to showcase their brands

nothings being developed in gps that has any use outside of racing,NOTHING.so there is no good reason to .... up the spectacle and hinder many riders chances because it needs to be big money.



You are of course entitled to your opinions but I am calling BS on all of your argument because it is just not grounded in any sort of facts.

hawkdriver said:

The tires are just fine and Honda was trying to throw it's weight around. Even your own guy said he wants to stop talking about the tires, it is what it is and they'll figure it out. They also seem to have made big steps with the chatter according to CS and like he said they knew they were going to have the chatter because they had it during winter testing. Honda is trying to turn this into a big issue and some are falling for it. The tires were voted on and I'm sure BS has a contract that says they aren't going to supply two different tires, should we bend the rules for them, a team that's constantly winning and putting in top practice and qualy times...poor poor Honda

I don't see how Jlo is better with these tires compared to CS and it seems he learned his lesson on at least giving the soft front a try, looks like he did damn good on it to.

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You are exactly right. The tyre that they started the season on, did all of their preseason testing on and designed the bikes around are just fine. There have been no complaints, there have been no accidents directly relating to the tyre. So with no reason to change it, why change it when there is not UNANIMOUS support for it? When there is no logical reason to change there can only be a political reason. Right now that political reason looks like it is to either slow the factory Honda's down and particularly Stoner or to enhance someone else's opportunity.

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The tire changed after Checa tested the 2012 spec and gave his expert opinion it was very bad and the cause of the Ducati front end problems. Capirossi was involved but later scrambled to distance himself and issued denials.

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/176631/1/capirossi_comments_wrongly_attributed.html

Then just like magic a new spec front tire appeared, rushed out alongside the original 2012 spec because the numbers available were insufficient, indicating how Bridgestone had been caught off guard at the late change. Then the doosy that not enough tires were available to test at Aragon one week before the scheduled change over at Silverstone took the cake. Now it's not even worth debating, it's simply a joke. Even Pirrelli SBK has three tire options available at every round.

Hawkdriver, I didn't have a problem with them producing new tyres in accordance with the wish of most of the riders last year, although perhaps the "cold tyre" problems last year may have related substantially to the preponderance of both new track surfaces and cold weather conditions. I had not much problem, or less than honda did anyway, with bridgestone having paid the development costs of 2 different compounds of new tyre only producing the one not as well suited to the honda factory bikes, as long as they kept supplying last year's tyre as they were doing. Now it seems that is to go as well. If this is due to bridgestone's contract then it is different, but honda would not seem to have been aware of this when they complained about bridgestone not providing the new tyre preferred by their riders. I was never a supporter of the control tyre from the get-go btw.



If lorenzo is better and more versatile than stoner, and he will have to be rated so head to head if he wins this year imo, then he is better, I have no problem with that. But it does seem to be stretching the bounds of coincidence that dominant championship wins by stoner, who would seem to be dependent on tyres to excel since he excels from an unconventional riding style rather than by riding conventionally in a superior fashion to others, appear to be immediately followed by major changes to the tyres. Again I have nor problem with others being given the tyres that they want or are suited to them, just with tyres being taken away.

michaelm said:

I am sick of people saying that winning on them is somehow less a reflection of riding talent;

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no worry there, i think winning on these bikes is just as much worth as on other bikes.my worry is that when the bikes will become slower (and they will soon) and the electronics keep evolving it will take away from the riders

birdman said:

Think 990 as an example: which year was better 2002 or 2006? In four years the others evolved into a match for Honda, rather than Honda being handicapped into a Suzuki.

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good point,stability in the rules is essential for that

Mental Anarchist said:

You have repeatedly commented that by decreasing HP and removing rider aids it will allow the good guys to shine as apposed to electronics allowing anyone to shine. Well reality significantly contradicts what you are saying. Right now with all the electronics only a few guys are able to ride the bike to the limit.





In a previous post you said that "NOTHING from MotoGP translates to road bikes". This is just another reason why it appears you have very little concept or understanding of MotoGP because you could not be further from the truth.





You are of course entitled to your opinions but I am calling BS on all of your argument because it is just not grounded in any sort of facts.

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yes, right now. and i fully respect the current generation of riders for riding these beasts. my worry is that that could change in the next couple of years. i've heard a call for active suspension. i know, 2 different pair of shoes , but remember f1 in 1992/93?





please tell me,whats being developed in motogp that has relevance for the road. because really, it appears i don't have a clue.

i know its being said that the insane spending and focus electronics is being justified because it develops them for road use.

but who was the first manufacturer to offer a tc system on a sportsbike?jaouad will be happy to tell you

further more , how these systems work in gp can not be transated onto the road. my road bike will never ever be able to know "alright i'm in this little bend on that road in germany, humidity is so and so %, so i can let the rider pin it , i'll translate that to 60% throttle and fight wheel spin by engine cut since i don't have a catalytic converter in the exhaust"

Why not? Maybe in years to come you will be able to set the TC system to operate from GPS input. Not as if every piece of road on the plant is not accurately mapped and available on a GPS.



This is the thing. Technology keeps advancing and bikes are better for it. Just about everything on a current sports bike is derived from GP technology. Sure it is scaled down but it is still there.



Never say never about technology. Sure we don't have hover boards yet but when I left school I never dreamed that kids today would have mobile phones, facebook or tablets. Hell when you went to the supermarket you paid with cash or cheque. There was no eftpos or any other means of electronic payment.



I am basically a greenie but I certainly do not deny the advancement of technology.

Mental Anarchist said:

I am basically a greenie but I certainly do not deny the advancement of technology.

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neither do i, but i have reasonable doubt that that is needed. wheel spin control,different engine maps are all ok and cool but gps based rider aids are something very different.



i think we have to agree to disagree here, you insist on motogp being a place to research further, i insist as long as the important questions such as new fuel aren't being dealt with the championship needs to be rider based.

we could discuss this for eternitiy,what is more important : rider, or technology

cliché guevara said:

neither do i, but i have reasonable doubt that that is needed. wheel spin control,different engine maps are all ok and cool but gps based rider aids are something very different.



i think we have to agree to disagree here, you insist on motogp being a place to research further, i insist as long as the important questions such as new fuel aren't being dealt with the championship needs to be rider based.

we could discuss this for eternitiy,what is more important : rider, or technology

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Sure in a cruising around on the road environment it seems like overkill. What if someday you have a son who tells you he wants to ride the Paris Dakar. If Honda gives you a GPS based TC ABS everything under the sun system on the bike that can be a potential life saver is that a good or bad thing. You do realise bike racers are putting their lives on the line. I think its a little selfish to want to remove safety based systems for nothing more than 'entertainment' value. Sure turn them down but dont take them away.

birdman said:

The two rules that forced motogp into an electronic war were the fuel limit and control tire imo. Creating yet another rule to compensate does not address the cause.

I would have thought the example of Spies vs Lorenzo provides ample evidence of the rider being the greater percentage of what determines the outcome. Many said Lorenzo wouldnt be able to handle a 1000. Many still say Lorenzo would struggle on an old 990 without electronics. I say Lorenzo evolves, to be whatever he needs to be. Spies needs to follow suit or risk becoming another SBK dinosour.

If they just leave the rules alone, the sport will naturally evolve towards closer racing. Think 990 as an example: which year was better 2002 or 2006? In four years the others evolved into a match for Honda, rather than Honda being handicapped into a Suzuki.

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This.

Yes 2006 was the best year of racing we have seen for a long while, certainly far better than any year since.



Funnily enough, the lap times aren't that much faster this year to 2006 anyway, at Catalunya the racetime comparison between 2012-2006 was staggeringly similar, so they aren't going faster at all, even with all the aids. And yes only 4 bikes on the grid have a chance to win, Casey and Jorge just use their superior packages better than their teammates.



So they aren't going faster, the racing is far more processional, and it's costs .... loads more. One only has to look at the Williams example in 92-93 as brought up earlier in the thread, as to how tech can color results.



The tech shouldn't be removed, it should be limited and the sport kept as safe as possible. And serious factors like Tyres should not be restricted, this is what is forcing the sport backwards. Anyone who believes Stoner and Jorge would be winning on Satellite machines today is delusional.



Could they have won on a Satellite machine with a series like what we had in 06? Tony Elias did. KRJR came damn close to.



As soon as more control is given back to the rider, the series will improve and we'll see a more accurate representation of the best riders. Right now we aren't seeing it, and I don't care who says what about who uses less or more aids, the fact remains that they all use plenty, and Stoner and Lorenzo currently have the best and use them the best-is this superior rider skill or superior operational skill? For as we know the current tech removes a lot of the decisions that a rider would normally have to make (wheelie, throttle, high side, engine breaking, GPS guided exacting fueling per corner per track per conditions etc etc) combine this with tyres that don't go off.........



If you asked Herve or Gresini or LCR at the start of the season this year how many races they expect to have a shot at winning I'm sure they would have laughed at you.

If you asked the same question in jan 2006, the reaction would have been far different, this is a true indication of the Fairness of the sport, equal- yes....fair- no way

MdubSTYLIE said:

Do they only hire ...... quitters over at honda.

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He has form - how are Honda doing in F1 these days?

Talpa said:

Could they have won on a Satellite machine with a series like what we had in 06? Tony Elias did. KRJR came damn close to.

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KRJR was a world champion on a suzuki for a reason; probably one of the most creditable world championships ever, along with stoner beating honda and yamaha on a ducati. Nevertheless stoner came closer to winning a race in 2006 than he did, iirc.



Tony elias won his race in 2006 on the occasion he was allowed to have sns michelins. I rest my case.

chopperman said:

I believe Puig even has an office in dorna, or he did.

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Puig works for Dorna - he runs the GP Academy and the Red Bull Rookies Cup. He doesn't work for or represent HRC - he is only in the garage as Pedrosa's manager. HRC gave him his cards a couple of years back.