Well good sir, I agree with the part you say Dorna seemed to be trying to help out the new CRT formula with many of these changes (though I disagree they were aimed at helping Ducati). I recall it a bit differently, perhaps because the implication of the proposed conspiracies were based firmly on the idea that slowing down the entire formula would some how slow down Stoner (which the series would eventually all got toward CRTs). Stoner voicing his displeasure suggesting even quitting over a rules change (though it was defended as mere having the right to retire) also went a long way in giving "POV conspiracy" theorists (new coining, as I'm sure we havent seen the last of these conspiracies) the fuel they needed by echoing their displeasure over CRTs and how it might 'ruin the sport'. I still laugh about it, because this prompted Pov to declare he would boycott the sport. haha.
Regarding the weight change, that is NOT how it went down at all, they proposed a change, and within the agreements between all the parties involved, a non-unanimous vote meant Dorna could make that change. That it was made late in the testing cycle was the rallying cry for the conspiracy theorist to cry foul implying it was done to screw with Stoner's Honda. The point that keeps getting missed by those who would propose such conspiracy against Honda (specifically Stoner) was the fact that Yamaha was also equally effected by this series of events.
Regarding the tire conspiracy, I struggle to understand why bringing up Nakomoto's comments is of value on this point. Of course he's going to object to not getting his two rider's preferred tires. The reality is, they were in the small minority 2/20+.
The truth is that several baseless conspiracies have been proposed regarding Honda Stoner, the reality is that they have occupied 2/3 of the podium positions in all the 2012 races so far. If Dorna is trying to slow down Stoner, Honda, and help Ducati, Rossi...they are failing miserably.
Which almost guarantees that there is a conspiracy because anything Dorna touch they .... up miserably.
On he point of Lorenzo not trying to pass Stoner:
In the post race press conference Lorenzo made a comment that no one has quoted yet. He said that he has such high respect for Stoner that he will only make a very calculated attempt to pass and he will not just have a go. (Or words to that effect)
Others have mentioned that these 3 like each other too much. Will that comment of Lorenzo's made me agree to a small degree. I am not into dangerous riding at all and I believe pass should have the intention of being clean but it is motor racing and no one opens the door, especially at the pinnacle.
Lorenzo definitely needs to have a go in my opinion because other wise Stoner is going to run away with a record season and I don't want that simply because it allows all the mindless followers to discredit his championship.
Regarding the CRT's: I think they have made the entry to easy and the lowest hanging fruit are having a go. At this stage the CRT's are a disgrace. How many finished the race? Moto2 was not that bad in its first year. I have a feeling that CRT's will have less bikes on the grid next year. There is almost no media coverage and for the money they a spending to run at the back they could go SBK racing and be competitive. Hell they could achieve the same result in SBK by walking into a Honda dealer, buying a CBR1000 taking the mirrors off and riding it to the track and lining up on the grid and be the same 4-6sec of the pace of a SBK.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Ah, so you do not miss Rossi at the top, but would like Lorenzo and Pedrosa to race more like him (or, as he used to race). Fine points of sophism, Jum!
Me, I always said -- you should remember -- that I consider Rossi and Stoner the two best riders I've seen in recent times. By miles (imo). Now Rossi is declining, and Stoner ascending, so we might not be fortunate enough to see a Catalunya 2007 or a Laguna Seca 2008 again. Pity.
The fact that I see apparent signs of decline in Rossi does not cancel my appreciation of him and of what he has done.
And yes, 'many' is mainly you... but the volume of your fire makes you sound like an entire army, you know...
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
None of that means squat now that Casey is on a competent machine. He does not have to cross his fingers and hope the front sticks when he has to turn up the wick. With Stoner on the Honda, Rossi can no more get in his head than i could. What you have is the fastest rider in the world, on a very good machine, its his turn to get into the heads of the competition. He beat Rossi heads up for an era while riding a slug for 80%of that era. So there is no misunderstanding to what im saying, i dont think Rossi can challenge Stoner, even on equal machinery.
Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
Soz Man go back and watch the first lap first corner again.
You have a bike buck under you whilst other riders are so close and tell me you wouldn't want to take a couple of laps to calm down.
By then the damage was done and he had to play catch up.
I thought he did an admirable job from after that.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
So your bored and entertained at the same time. That must cause some serious synapse collapse at times.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Regarding the CRTs, again I agree with your take. The bottom CRTs are pathetic, but the top 3-4 CRTs are decent, probably no better than B list riders on full "prototype" Ducatis if you think about it. I think they'll get better. I'm not gonna judge them based on the lowest common denominator. With the loss of Edwards, the CRTs will look even worse. This was most pronounced during qual, which looked like amateur hour. We can't deny them access though if they are making it within the qual requirement (I guess that is something). Moto2 had a "spec" engine, this fact buffered the lack of parity in my opinion.
Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
Now you've done it. You pretty much insulted the entire GP community in one short post.Boring? I'm sure Son of Doohan, Mental, Povol, etal will tell you to go .... yourself (which if you manage it, please post some pics). And saying Valentino doesn't care will surely make Talpa's head explode. But come on girl, saying Nicky doesn't do much? Give him a change. I'd like to introduce you to him. PM me and maybe we can meet up at Laguna (which you'll probably be working) and I'll let Nicky know he needs to make a new fan. I'm sure he'll think of a way to convince you.
How you gonna do that Jumks?
Doesn't Nicky still have a restraining order on you after the SoCal bike show incident?
Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
True. But Nicky likes ...... So if MotoChick is a promo girl (I haven't seen too many ugly ones of those, and believe you me, I've searched) then me presenting her to him for his approval might be the keys to the kingdom.
Go Barbera! (Right Wilski...)
Jum I agree that Rossi would have tried. In fact I have no doubt in it. The difference is that Rossi respected NO ONE where as Lorenzo respects Stoner. It can be argued without complaint from me that that respect potentially influences their ability to scape it out.
I think had the situation been reversed with Stoner following Lorenzo he would have had a go because I think he has more speed and would have been able to close the gap more convincingly. I know a lot of people rate Lorenzo as equal to Stoner but in my opinion Stoner has Lorenzo covered.
Another opinion is that Lorenzo is starting to fall into the trap of blaming an uncompetitive bike for not winning. He did it last year and has started again this year. Like it has with Rossi it will become a mental barrier to success. Stoner on the other hand wins despite the bike. These differences should not be underrated in my view.
To clarify even though perspectives can not be changed, I do not hate all things Rossi. At most I would say I have a mild dislike for Rossi's personality. I admire his skill and success and always have. I have opinions on the full worth of some of his championships based on political influence, equipment advantages and quality of competition. What I do hate is the hardcore, kool-aid drinking fans that have in my opinion destroyed the sport for many. And I do believe that the sooner Rossi is out of the sport the better for every one and MotoGP.
I think had the situation been reversed with Stoner following Lorenzo he would have had a go because I think he has more speed and would have been able to close the gap more convincingly. I know a lot of people rate Lorenzo as equal to Stoner but in my opinion Stoner has Lorenzo covered.
Another opinion is that Lorenzo is starting to fall into the trap of blaming an uncompetitive bike for not winning. He did it last year and has started again this year. Like it has with Rossi it will become a mental barrier to success. Stoner on the other hand wins despite the bike. These differences should not be underrated in my view.
To clarify even though perspectives can not be changed, I do not hate all things Rossi. At most I would say I have a mild dislike for Rossi's personality. I admire his skill and success and always have. I have opinions on the full worth of some of his championships based on political influence, equipment advantages and quality of competition. What I do hate is the hardcore, kool-aid drinking fans that have in my opinion destroyed the sport for many. And I do believe that the sooner Rossi is out of the sport the better for every one and MotoGP.
Now you've done it. You pretty much insulted the entire GP community in one short post.Boring? I'm sure Son of Doohan, Mental, Povol, etal will tell you to go .... yourself (which if you manage it, please post some pics). And saying Valentino doesn't care will surely make Talpa's head explode. But come on girl, saying Nicky doesn't do much? Give him a change. I'd like to introduce you to him. PM me and maybe we can meet up at Laguna (which you'll probably be working) and I'll let Nicky know he needs to make a new fan. I'm sure he'll think of a way to convince you.
Yes they are rather selective our band of Neo's........the race was no where near as entertaining as reading the .... on here!!
Whats wrong with saying the race was boring? its suppose to be a race, we had what, 3-4 visible passes-mostly for 8th? Compared to Moto2 it was a snore fest. And its interesting that many suggest we should turn off and watch something else, funnily enough I was switching to WSBK quite often, and rather disappointed when the race was canned, as I would have watched it, and occasional flicked to Motogp for an update, just like a TV daytime soapie, you can come back to it now a not have missed much
The Neo's always bring in the Rossi excuse, like its their 'warm blanket' to cling to in all argument, pathetic as usual. Even a casual observer could tell from practice that Rossi was going to be mid-pack in the race, yet we watched it anyway. The 'Rossi' factor is what we want, from someone like Lorenzo to stand up make a race of it, like we all know Rossi would have had he been in that position on that Yamaha. Polite, processional racing is what has brought about all of these reg changes, which still seem to have no effect-as most us knew they wouldn't without the removal of the fuel limit and the control rubber.
I find Lorenzos comments on Stoner a little disturbing to be honest, like some gay euro adoration that's effected him in the head. What happened to the Lorenzo that was so hungry to beat Rossi a few years back? And would put the moves on, whenever possible? Sure, I want to see respect between riders, but they are also in competition, and if they have so much respect for each other, and are not hungry enough to make a move, then its time to let someone else have a go......as I said before, this does not auger well for Dorna, having the three top guys willing to ride around patting each other on the back is not what fans will pay to see, unless they are neo's and Casey is winning........And of course, maybe Lorenzo couldn't have done anything as his bike wouldn't let him, Nicky's woes were a harsh reminder of what electronics, fuel computers and live telemetry communication have made of this sport of which I've been a fan of for many years, maybe its just too professional in all facets these days.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
He has complained about not being able to get sufficient heat in the tires. Perhaps his weight is a factor.
Self-hate, dude, not a good thing. It is now widely recognized, that the opinions (certainly online) being voiced from Stoner fans are far worse than anything that ever came from the Rossi camp.......only that they are in the minority.
How have the Rossi fans destroyed the sport?
How much money do you think Casey Stoner would be being paid right now if Valentino Rossi didn't exist?
Would Casey Stoner as we know him even exist without Valentino Rossi?
Would this forum exist without Valentino Rossi? 6/8's of the posts certainly wouldn't......
I believe the sooner Stoner is out of the sport, the better for every one and Motogp, especially when other riders have too much respect for him to pass him! I'm kidding..........I will certainly never be this much of a biggot
The sooner the fuel limit is raised and the control tyre is removed from Motogp, the better Motogp will be.
Well good sir, I agree with the part you say Dorna seemed to be trying to help out the new CRT formula with many of these changes (though I disagree they were aimed at helping Ducati). I recall it a bit differently, perhaps because the implication of the proposed conspiracies were based firmly on the idea that slowing down the entire formula would some how slow down Stoner (which the series would eventually all got toward CRTs). Stoner voicing his displeasure suggesting even quitting over a rules change (though it was defended as mere having the right to retire) also went a long way in giving "POV conspiracy" theorists (new coining, as I'm sure we havent seen the last of these conspiracies) the fuel they needed by echoing their displeasure over CRTs and how it might 'ruin the sport'. I still laugh about it, because this prompted Pov to declare he would boycott the sport. haha.
Regarding the weight change, that is NOT how it went down at all, they proposed a change, and within the agreements between all the parties involved, a non-unanimous vote meant Dorna could make that change. That it was made late in the testing cycle was the rallying cry for the conspiracy theorist to cry foul implying it was done to screw with Stoner's Honda. The point that keeps getting missed by those who would propose such conspiracy against Honda (specifically Stoner) was the fact that Yamaha was also equally effected by this series of events.
Regarding the tire conspiracy, I struggle to understand why bringing up Nakomoto's comments is of value on this point. Of course he's going to object to not getting his two rider's preferred tires. The reality is, they were in the small minority 2/20+.
The truth is that several baseless conspiracies have been proposed regarding Honda Stoner, the reality is that they have occupied 2/3 of the podium positions in all the 2012 races so far. If Dorna is trying to slow down Stoner, Honda, and help Ducati, Rossi...they are failing miserably.
See the casey to retire thread where lex re-visits the 2008 tyre conspiracy. I was not aware bridgestone were continuing to supply the old stiff carcass hard tyre (beloved by casey as lex puts it) . If so, nakomoto and stoner have no cause for complaint, as it is unreasonable for there to be the old tyre and 2 different new tyres, under a control tyre rule anyway. Stoner to my knowledge has not complained about them going to the new tyre preferred by the other riders, he has just said they are wrong. I guess nakomoto is still pushing for any advantage for honda he can get, and I don't disagree that honda shouldn't be allowed to run the sport.
I don't honestly know what dorna are trying to do with the CRTs, and it seems to change day by day.. What they are doing is not a conspiracy in any case, as it is being done openly, unless their apparently complete confusion is a subterfuge concealing their real plan. I think I misinterpreted your comment in regard to the crts on this thread which I thought was specific to petrucci being lapped at estoril, which I didn't think had much to do with the future of motogp or anything else except perhaps to show that crts being lapped is likely to be a rare occurrence, given that estoril is one of the shorter tracks and petrucci had a big off which cost him a lot of time.
We will have to agree to disagree about the weight thing. I think it is unprofessional and unreasonable (as well as expensive) to change the rules so long after they are promulgated and so close to a new season, and that such a change should require universal approval rather than maintaining the status quo requiring universal approval, even if ducati were misrepresented rather than changing their mind subsequent to the vote. Even in series like nascar and wsbk where there is deliberate equalisation the teams enter knowing this to be the case.
I don't think they are trying to help ducati to the same extent that they are trying to help the crts; the relaxation of the testing rules may have been partly aimed at helping them but it probably suited honda and yamaha as well. I don't think they are trying to help rossi specifically at all, and if they are as you say it isn't working. Even they realise that his tenure in the sport is limited one way or another, and if they do try to help him it will be by encouraging that he be offered a competitive ride next year for a last grand hurrah.
Joined Sep 2009
482 Posts | 198+
Austin, Tx. USA
When folks comment on how stoner out road rossi while stoner was on the crummy old duc, They often comment on how much better Rossi's Yamaha was. But I also remember often times stoner just motoring right around Rossi like he was standing still on the straights. I remember a quote from Kevin scwantz during a race stating "all that work and all Rossi can do is watch him (stoner) go by in a straight line." please don't get me wrong. Stoner is great and may be the best. But it seems when he won his first championship on the Ducati he at least had a significant top speed advantage that Rossi does not currently enjoy on his Ducati.
Joined Oct 2011
351 Posts | 25+
Europe
If there is any type of advantage the Duc can claim, it is top speed. It's just not significant - not in absolut terms, they aren't so much faster, nor does it compensate for the lack of performance in basically every other area. Top speed seems really irrelevant as long as it is somewhere within a 5-10 kph zone. Lorenzo won Qatar 2012, just as Rossi did win Mugello 2007, both on 'slow' Yams.
Anyone who says The Ducati did not have a top speed advantage in 2007 is kidding themselves. It was as plain as the nose on your face.
Having said that, there were 4 of them out there & the others were nowhere week in week out. Even at Qatar, Catalunya & China where the straights were long, the others never threatened.
I also think it would be fair to say that even then, the Ducati handled much worse than the Yamaha or Honda.
Perhaps Stoner keeping up with Vale on the turns should also be thought about as a disadvantage, especially considering what we now know about the bike?
