Estoril 2012: RACE

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What happened to the Lorenzo that was so hungry to beat Rossi a few years back? And would put the moves on, whenever possible? Sure, I want to see respect between riders, but they are also in competition, and if they have so much respect for each other, and are not hungry enough to make a move, then its time to let someone else have a go....And of course, maybe Lorenzo couldn't have done anything as his bike wouldn't let him



I thought his comments showed a new level of maturity. He knew he wasn't going to be able to pass Stoner - he had been dogging his heels all weekend. He settled for the points - live ti fight another day.



He could have done a banzai move, taken Stoner out and hurt them both, but he let discretion rule his head.



Good team player. Hard as nails racer.
 
Pedrosa´s words after the race, loosely interpreted, were that he was hooked and not much more he could do.



Hooked, like a fish beeing reeled in, but not fast enough to make any ground. He and Jorge were being pulled around the track and giving it their all, but never able to fight.



The 3 of them realize that the first to DNF will be in trouble in the championship race.
 
as it is unreasonable for there to be the old tyre and 2 different new tyres, under a control tyre rule anyway.



It would be nice if we could get away from the 'control tyre' meme. They don't have control tyres, what they have is tyre parity and a single supplier.



At most tracks the rider has the choice of different carcass and compound - that isn't a control tyre.
 
Anyone who says The Ducati did not have a top speed advantage in 2007 is kidding themselves. It was as plain as the nose on your face.

Having said that, there were 4 of them out there & the others were nowhere week in week out. Even at Qatar, Catalunya & China where the straights were long, the others never threatened.



At Qatar the Ducati had a 324 to 317km/h advantage. By race 8 that advantage had evaporated. From there to the end of the season Pedrosa stayed within a km or two, being faster than all the other Ducati's, but he never bettered Stoner.
 
So Rossi didn't beat Stoner in 2008 now? Holy .... you guys take the biscuit, why don't we give him Doohan's titles too?



Sorry folks but some posts are not gonna be a Casey circle jerk, it's getting grim on here that unless you declare your love and admiration for Casey you are not entitled to an educated opinion.



Nowhere am I slagging off Caseys ability to ride, I am saying that the others have to make him fight for the wins.



I think a few folk need to go on an understanding the English language forum to learn what words actually mean before coming on here.



Didn't say that mate. Saying... that Rossi won through a combination of racecraft and factors including tire changes that were contrary to the already problematic Ducati and Stoner's health issues. The whole "Rossi got in his head" business is a sophomoric, wishful-thinking, fan-created myth. Nonsense like this gets slogged around by Rossifans in hopes of discouraging those who supported Stoner... and it didn't work. It worked even less on Stoner who is clearly mentally tougher than all the macho frat boys will admit.
 
Didn't say that mate. Saying... that Rossi won through a combination of racecraft and factors including tire changes that were contrary to the already problematic Ducati and Stoner's health issues. The whole "Rossi got in his head" business is a sophomoric, wishful-thinking, fan-created myth.



I actually do believe Rossi "got into Stoners head". However the outcome of it was not of benefit to Rossi
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It is another of Rossi fatal flaws in my book. Might have worked on the likes of Capirosi or Gibernau, but Stoner is a very different animal to those two ........ more like a crocodile I would think
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The fact of allegedly wimpy Stoner's dominance over the last four seasons has been a hard pill for the neanderthals to swallow. Rossi thought he was messing with Yamaha's head when he made his demands and that didn't work out too well either.
 
The fact of allegedly wimpy Stoner's dominance over the last four seasons has been a hard pill for the neanderthals to swallow. Rossi thought he was messing with Yamaha's head when he made his demands and that didn't work out too well either.



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Another case of his Ambition outweighing his talent ?
 
I was wondering if anyone else had the same general feeling about CRT. In like a lion, out like a lamb.



I don't.



I can see what Ezpeleta is trying to do. Ever since the big three stopped leasing out bikes the costs have gone through the roof, with all bike development controlled by the factory, it will be a cold day in hell that a satellite team wins a GP.



Dorna gave the MSMA plenty of notice of what was to come if they didn't sort .... out - they didn't, this is what has happened.



We have a race series with three manufacturers, seemingly only one of which can win in a given year. Something had to change.



But it isn't going to happen overnight. In order to keep the show running, there needed to be a period of transition where we could continue to watch and identify with our favourite team/rider/brand.



While this may result in less than stellar racing in the lower-orders this year, maybe even for a year or two, I feel the direction is a positive one. If what Ezpeleta is doing means a return for Aprilia, Suzuki, Kawasaki, BMW et al. it can't be a bad thing.



However - I guess I am one of those glass-half-full kinda guys and I am looking at the CRT bikes and thinking - they are within a handful of seconds of the very fastest riders on the planet - not bad on less than a million Euros.



If you look back to 2001, the difference between Repsol HRC and Foggy Petronas at the Japanese GP was more than 25secs/lap. Things didn't change much for years - I think people have forgotten what it was like when there were bikes other than factory and satellite factory. It has always been like this - we are actually in a strange era - one where the only bikes on the grid are owned by the factories and have factory techs managing them.



I do agree with others that it seems like Dorna has made a series of ....-ups - it's pretty hard to argue that they have made things better, but the fact is, that's the past. It's either going to get better or Dorna are going to lose the franchise.



But...



I think we focus too much on the machines - where its the competition that is the thing. I don't particularly care that they are doing 330km/h or 295km/h - it looks pretty similar from where I am sitting. What I care about is that the competitive nature of GP racing returns.



For that to happen, the cost of competing needs to normalise. The rules need to stabilise for more than five minutes and there needs to be a significant reduction in those rules.



As in any high-tech sport the costs can run riot, but this is worsened by the continual rule changes.



If we were now at the end of 12 years of open four-stroke GP competition, where there were simple, easily-followed rules, an open formula that would allow innovative engineering solutions, some stringent dictates that prevented it being purely a money game (such as - tyres need to be checked in on Friday morning before FP1 - no overnight specials; no exotic materials; no positional/gps ECU) so the racing is more about innovation and skill, not the ability to snare a big fish sponsor, we would be seeing a lot more competitive racing.



How can we be sure? Because it has been this way in the past. Where some ....-hot young tuner has taken on a project bike and after a couple or three years, starts to see real results. Under Dorna, we have seen this sort of racing erode as all his work goes down the toilet after three years because they have changed the formula and none of his data is valid any more.



250GP racing was great, right up until it was canned. It was competitive, it was fast and any number of riders could be standing on that top step. There were problems - specifically Aprilia's gouging of race teams - but that could have been fixed. The reason it was such good racing and so competitive is because there was around 30 years of 250GP racing experience in the paddock - there were generations of tuners and teams with masses of data to fall back on.



With any luck, in the next couple of years we will see a levelling of the rules and we will enjoy another golden age of GP racing - but continually harping back or complaining about what isn't there is not going to get us any nearer that goal.
 
Arrabbiata1 Wayne Rayne doesn’t even come close to Stoner



I am not quite sure how to respond to that... with a .... YOU because your ignorant description of a supremely talented rider that gave nearly everything to his sport?



Or just to pity you for your total ignorance of GP history. Which makes you someone whose opinion is worth nothing.



Regardless of which it is, you have a juvenile attitude to the sport.
 
How do you think Dani's slight build is effecting his ability to ride the 1000cc bikes ? The advantage out of corners and down straights is obvious, but are the physical demands on the twisty bits too much for him ?

He physique and his suitability for the big bikes has always been a bit of a talking point, but the Honda has now had even more weight added.



Well as you said his physical abilities to handle a Motogp bike was always a question, But I think the advantages you mentioned could cover the disadvantages he has in braking and the twisty parts of a track, and by the way I always compare Pedrosa only with himself because I know there is a little bit of differences between him and the other big riders, When I say he was not himself during the Estoril race, I'm comparing him with his aggressive style back in 2006 with the 990 cc bikes or even the last year race in the same Estoril circuit. On the last year tests he said he needs to change his style for the 1000 cc bikes but I dont know how much change of style he needs for the 4 KG weight increase because he had one season with the 990 cc bikes. I really don't know the 2006 bike and engine specs but I don't think it was more difficult to ride than this years 1000 cc bike. Once again please inform me if I'm wrong.
 
I don't.



I can see what Ezpeleta is trying to do. Ever since the big three stopped leasing out bikes the costs have gone through the roof, with all bike development controlled by the factory, it will be a cold day in hell that a satellite team wins a GP.



Dorna gave the MSMA plenty of notice of what was to come if they didn't sort .... out - they didn't, this is what has happened.



We have a race series with three manufacturers, seemingly only one of which can win in a given year. Something had to change.



But it isn't going to happen overnight. In order to keep the show running, there needed to be a period of transition where we could continue to watch and identify with our favourite team/rider/brand.



While this may result in less than stellar racing in the lower-orders this year, maybe even for a year or two, I feel the direction is a positive one. If what Ezpeleta is doing means a return for Aprilia, Suzuki, Kawasaki, BMW et al. it can't be a bad thing.



However - I guess I am one of those glass-half-full kinda guys and I am looking at the CRT bikes and thinking - they are within a handful of seconds of the very fastest riders on the planet - not bad on less than a million Euros.



If you look back to 2001, the difference between Repsol HRC and Foggy Petronas at the Japanese GP was more than 25secs/lap. Things didn't change much for years - I think people have forgotten what it was like when there were bikes other than factory and satellite factory. It has always been like this - we are actually in a strange era - one where the only bikes on the grid are owned by the factories and have factory techs managing them.



I do agree with others that it seems like Dorna has made a series of ....-ups - it's pretty hard to argue that they have made things better, but the fact is, that's the past. It's either going to get better or Dorna are going to lose the franchise.



But...



I think we focus too much on the machines - where its the competition that is the thing. I don't particularly care that they are doing 330km/h or 295km/h - it looks pretty similar from where I am sitting. What I care about is that the competitive nature of GP racing returns.



For that to happen, the cost of competing needs to normalise. The rules need to stabilise for more than five minutes and there needs to be a significant reduction in those rules.



As in any high-tech sport the costs can run riot, but this is worsened by the continual rule changes.



If we were now at the end of 12 years of open four-stroke GP competition, where there were simple, easily-followed rules, an open formula that would allow innovative engineering solutions, some stringent dictates that prevented it being purely a money game (such as - tyres need to be checked in on Friday morning before FP1 - no overnight specials; no exotic materials; no positional/gps ECU) so the racing is more about innovation and skill, not the ability to snare a big fish sponsor, we would be seeing a lot more competitive racing.



How can we be sure? Because it has been this way in the past. Where some ....-hot young tuner has taken on a project bike and after a couple or three years, starts to see real results. Under Dorna, we have seen this sort of racing erode as all his work goes down the toilet after three years because they have changed the formula and none of his data is valid any more.



250GP racing was great, right up until it was canned. It was competitive, it was fast and any number of riders could be standing on that top step. There were problems - specifically Aprilia's gouging of race teams - but that could have been fixed. The reason it was such good racing and so competitive is because there was around 30 years of 250GP racing experience in the paddock - there were generations of tuners and teams with masses of data to fall back on.



With any luck, in the next couple of years we will see a levelling of the rules and we will enjoy another golden age of GP racing - but continually harping back or complaining about what isn't there is not g, certainly the cost structure needed to be addressed, but what i and myoing to get us any nearer that goal.

I thought that was the plan and I was kind of with it, but what I and I think lex was saying is that the CRTs seem to be in limbo at the moment. Were dorna ever serious about ditching the manufacturers and going wholly CRT? Have they just used them as a bargaining chip to be abandoned if they can bring the manufacturers to heel sufficiently?. There doesn't to me look to be a very clear direction at the moment, particularly I would have thought if you are a CRT team.
 
Soz Man go back and watch the first lap first corner again.

You have a bike buck under you whilst other riders are so close and tell me you wouldn't want to take a couple of laps to calm down.

By then the damage was done and he had to play catch up.

I thought he did an admirable job from after that.
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I watched the whole race and I remember what happened to him on the first lap. But I think there is something about his riding style this year, Something is not letting him push the bike harder, I don't know if its the 4kg weight increase or not having rear grip or something
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. Was it always hard to find a good setup for this guy??
 
So Stoner can't make mistakes now he is on the Honda?



Youre talking ....., I don't mention Rossi beating Stoner or current form anywhere in the post, I'm saying that Jorge's racecraft isn't working, and he needs to pressure Stoner.







Please use your obviously fruitful imagination to better use than imagining words on an internet forum.



Bless

How you came to that conclusion is beyond comprehension. I said Stoner was on a competent machine. Competent does not mean perfect. I also said Stoner was the fastest rider in the world. Fastest does not mean perfect.





As far as the rest, you implied that if it had been Rossi or sitting in Jorges seat, he would have had a go. I simply pointed out that Rossi wouldnt have been anywhere near Stoner to have a go, even if he had been sitting in Jorges seat.
 
Arrabbiata1 Wayne Rayne doesn’t even come close to Stoner look what happened to him! He’s in a wheel chair and a non-factor and this is because he was just not good enough or didn’t cut the field! Now JohnnyKnockdown you are just an ..... that thinks that you are funny and so intelligent...my comments were honest and true....... your interpretation of my post because you and the rest just don’t have any idea of what you are talking about and the joke at the end of 2012 will be really on you because you are so stupid and have no idea about motogp! Just wait and see what Stoner will do in 2012 and then all of you will have egg on your face! And NOW for the GENIUS...MdubSTYLIE...you are just an ..... that has...NO IDEA...a 5 year old is more intelligent then you and has more imagination than you because it proves that you have never had kids you have never ever brought up kids and your imagination far outweighs your talent or your mind...GET A LIFE BESIDE POWERSLIDE!

Think i will quote this post so you can't edit it.
 
I watched the whole race and I remember what happened to him on the first lap. But I think there is something about his riding style this year, Something is not letting him push the bike harder, I don't know if its the 4kg weight increase or not having rear grip or something
<
. Was it always hard to find a good setup for this guy??

I think dani has always seemed to need to have the bike absolutely perfect. When entirely happy with the bike for a couple of races most years whatever the apparent overall status of the honda he has been completely untouchable, by stoner on a 2007 ducati, an uninjured rossi on a yamaha, or whomever. I suspect he isn't enjoying the chatter at present.
 
How you came to that conclusion is beyond comprehension. I said Stoner was on a competent machine. Competent does not mean perfect. I also said Stoner was the fastest rider in the world. Fastest does not mean perfect.





As far as the rest, you implied that if it had been Rossi or sitting in Jorges seat, he would have had a go. I simply pointed out that Rossi wouldnt have been anywhere near Stoner to have a go, even if he had been sitting in Jorges seat.





Holy .... I said Jorge needs to attack, and find a ..... in Stoners armour. Is that too hard to understand?



How bout I just write "Stoner is awesome" as thats all you want to read.



If you can't understand the words I wrote thats your problem, I'm here to talk motorcycle racing, not teach basic English comprehension.
 
Didn't say that mate. Saying... that Rossi won through a combination of racecraft and factors including tire changes that were contrary to the already problematic Ducati and Stoner's health issues. The whole "Rossi got in his head" business is a sophomoric, wishful-thinking, fan-created myth. Nonsense like this gets slogged around by Rossifans in hopes of discouraging those who supported Stoner... and it didn't work. It worked even less on Stoner who is clearly mentally tougher than all the macho frat boys will admit.



It's hard to argure that after Laguna 08, Rossi had not gotten into Casey's head. That was the moment he turned his season around, and Stoner started to make unforced errors. Fact. Yes, we all know now that Stoner was doing a ....... awesome job on the Ducati, (I hate saying that, not because of disrespect for Stoner but because a number of PS users get a semi when they read those words) but at that point, Rossi had him beaten. Just for the rcord, Rossi won the title that year, so to clarify that, yes, he beat him.
 
Arrabbiata1 Wayne Rayne doesn’t even come close to Stoner look what happened to him! He’s in a wheel chair and a non-factor and this is because he was just not good enough or didn’t cut the field! Now JohnnyKnockdown you are just an ..... that thinks that you are funny and so intelligent...my comments were honest and true....... your interpretation of my post because you and the rest just don’t have any idea of what you are talking about and the joke at the end of 2012 will be really on you because you are so stupid and have no idea about motogp! Just wait and see what Stoner will do in 2012 and then all of you will have egg on your face! And NOW for the GENIUS...MdubSTYLIE...you are just an ..... that has...NO IDEA...a 5 year old is more intelligent then you and has more imagination than you because it proves that you have never had kids you have never ever brought up kids and your imagination far outweighs your talent or your mind...GET A LIFE BESIDE POWERSLIDE!



Hahaha! Are you a ginger by chance?



13537:ginger snaps.jpg]



My imagination far outweighs my talent or my mind. Nice play on Super Awesome Speed King Casey Stoners words.
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Hey Ben, I think we need a "special" area for our "special" members. You really have no clue how ....... stupid you are do you scotty? I will stick to my statement that you are as elegant as a 5 year old.
 

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