Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
So Rog, what about those Rossi fans that switched of in 2010 because he could not ride with teh leg injury?
Or those that have turned off though 2011?
And what of the many millions of fans that we constantly hear will disappear from the sport upon the retirement of Rossi?
Are these all NeoBoppers as well or does the term only apply to one rider?
You comment about the 'Wayne Kerrs' who have disappeared over the last few weeks (and yes, there are some), but what of the other 'Wayne Kerrs' who disappeared throughout 2011, some only to resurface in the last few weeks with their usual 'anti' stances (and yes, some are yet to return).
One man's entertainment is nother's bore and hell yes it is not for you, nor I, nor anyone else to say what is and is not entertainment for the masses.
As for Lorenzo's personality, well I look at it that it was his home race, with his home fanes and he won it so he should be able to enjoy it in any manner he sees fit (realise you are not being critical here either).
Personally, I do not give a stuff what happens with any post race concotion and have found many over the years (in a number of categories) to be boorish and ego serving and for that I have no interest. But, Lorenzo had stepped back on his own shows so to me allowing him the pleasure every now and then is what the sport should encourage as it does 'involve' many fans of the rider concerned (even if I have NFI what the idea was and had some picture of the Michelin man)
I actually knew a guy called Wayne Kerr at School!.......there are definitely a few Wayne Kerrs who have been rather absent or very quiet because their hero hasn't performed to expectation-no doubt in most cases-making them look quite silly, I guess we have a hope if they at least are embarrassed at themselves
Its true of both sides Gaz, what Rog is saying is right, and what you are saying is also right....I don't know of the Rossi fans you speak of that switched because of the leg injury though?
The post race celebrations are normally fine to enjoy-great for the spectators present, the riders prove that they deserve to bask in it a little-and it shows personality, which is normally good for the sport. Mark Webber was quite happy recently after Monaco.......
I actually knew a guy called Wayne Kerr at School!.......there are definitely a few Wayne Kerrs who have been rather absent or very quiet because their hero hasn't performed to expectation-no doubt in most cases-making them look quite silly, I guess we have a hope if they at least are embarrassed at themselves
Its true of both sides Gaz, what Rog is saying is right, and what you are saying is also right....I don't know of the Rossi fans you speak of that switched because of the leg injury though?
The post race celebrations are normally fine to enjoy-great for the spectators present, the riders prove that they deserve to bask in it a little-and it shows personality, which is normally good for the sport. Mark Webber was quite happy recently after Monaco.......
Unfortunately the Webber backflip in the Red Bull pool was the most exciting aspect of the day. Boring race.
Yes Stoner was not as far behind Lorenzo in 2011 )3x1st, 1x DNF, 1x3rd) and he was -7 up to round 5 in comparison to this year (2x1st, 2x3rd, 1x4th) and he is -20, but in saying all this I feel that Stoner this year has got it all in front of him and has got a much harder task of catching Lorenzo then last year because Lorenzo is faster and more consistent and just seems more determined to make no mistakes. Stoner and the Honda seems like they have chatter problems and the Honda just doesn’t seem as good a package as the Yamaha overall. But Stoner has faced greater adversities before and has come through them with flying colours but all in all he has got a big job ahead of him to beat Lorenzo in 2012 and If you count Stoner out do so at your own peril because I’m sure Stoner realises the job ahead of him especially that the Tech3 bikes are getting faster and Dovi and Carl are and will be right up there in every GP from now on. I still back Stoner to get his 3rd WC.
May I offer my humble apologies? How dare I express my opinions so freely. If the majority want post race stunts, what right do I have to say I don't like it? I should just keep my mouth shut and accept what everyone wants. After all, I am just one insignificant voice. Maybe we should model Motogp on the communist Chinese system. There's a novel idea... And right you are, because I didn't like the post race celebrations, I am a Stoner fan with sour grapes. Even though I didn't mention it, you are right to point out that I was unhappy with Jorge winning the race (despite secretly thinking Jorge rode beautifully). In fact, you know me and my "problems" much better than I know myself. You should be my therapist. How much is your hourly rate?
Joined Jun 2007
3K Posts | 309+
UK
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Did Honda really think that Pedro was better than Rossi? No way. The proof they did not is that they engineered the switch to 800cc. The fact that Hayden had won the title was considered a freak accident by them... They bet on 800cc Pedrobikes as the only way to beat Rossi and Yamaha. You do not manipulate the rules if you think you have the best package.
I don't smoke, by the way, Jum...
Yeah, this year is very different. I can't see Jorge losing the title from here. I know it's a long way off, but the worst he is gonna finish all season (not counting a DNF) is second on the podium each race. His only real rival seems to lack the motivation this season, in my opinion. As I mentioned earlier, I really dislike Jorge's antics of late (put me against the wall and shoot me for that) but I can't deny he is the best rider on the track at present.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Did Honda really think that Pedro was better than Rossi? No way. The proof they did not is that they engineered the switch to 800cc. The fact that Hayden had won the title was considered a freak accident by them... They bet on 800cc Pedrobikes as the only way to beat Rossi and Yamaha. You do not manipulate the rules if you think you have the best package.
I don't smoke, by the way, Jum...
'Rising Sun' would beg to differ I'm afraid. Personally I agree, although I do believe that you are underestimating the faith and belief that HRC had in Pedrosa. To beat Rossi? - Honda's great white hope had been Kato. Meantime, they gauged great potential in Nicky - because at that time Honda America was full factory and he was clearly rewarded well - even so the sudden quantum leap into Moto GP surprised many particularly in view of the fact that they gazumped a signed contract with Yamaha in the process. Cynics would insist that this great potential was primarily from a marketing perspective. I also agree that HRC weren't expecting Nicky to win the title in '06 simply in my opinion because the plan was for Dani to clinch it instead. I remember talking to Toby Moody, Dennis Noyes and Doohan amongst others over the course of the 2006 Laguna race weekend - all of them kind enough to stop and answer my questions. They all stated emphatically that the HRC grand plan was for Pedrosa to take the title and hand it to Rossi in his maiden season and that he was expected to do this because HRC believed he was good enough. Another reason why I have always maintained that unlike Hayden he was not saddled with testing the internals for the ghastly RC212v. In the event - the evo version of the RC2111V proved to have its own strengths - which combined with Nicky's superb unfailing and relentless consistency, self belief and hard work, alongside the fortuitous wrong turn that Yamaha made that season (and somewhat contentiously - some would say the first turn Catalunya incident) contrived to win Nicky the title.....(in spite of Dani's best attempts to scupper this
No question, Honda's dream factory team was to be Perosa and Kato. But come 2006 they definitely believed not only that Pedrosa was capable of beating Rossi, but the machinery beneath him would convey a steady stream of titles their way - particularly with the advent of the new 800cc formula from 2007. Indeed, HRC were seemingly so intent on beating Yamaha - they were wholly impervious to an 'insignificant' little factory in Bologna and the Italian marque's even more 'insignificant' newly signed third choice rider. But that's another story doubtless capable of spawning yet another 30,000 threads!
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
This gets repeated to the extent it has become a motorcycling meme, and yet every time Honda are asked about the change to 800cc, they say they were against it and that it was a backward step.
So where is the evidence they 'engineered' the change? The meeting minutes of the FIM and MSMA indicate that they voted against it and that it was pushed through by the FIM for 'safety' reasons driven by the death of Daijaro Kato - in fact, the wording of the announcement of the working party looking to make changes in 2004 mentioned him by name as a causal reason.
Which is not to say I have any affinity for either the complete and utter bollox that has marked changes by both the FIM and Dorna, but laying the blame at Honda's door is ludicrous - of course they could have just wanted to blow a hundred million in wasted and new R&D and tooling, just on the off-chance their rider could win on a different bike, but you would have to have thought it was cheaper just to buy the best talent and let them ride the bike they built, no?
Two poles, two wins, two podiums, one fastest lap, second in the championship after five of eighteen races - yeah, I can see the lack of motivation just dripping off him...
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
No one is suggesting that HRC were solely to blame for the change in formula. However the momentum behind the capacity reduction proposed and advocated by Dorna and the FIM as a supposed safety measure following the death of Daijiro was certainly driven by Honda and their influence through the MSMA - absolutely - I remember this clearly at the time. The RC211v had been so indomitable - why shouldn't they have believed that they could steal a niche and engineer an even greater motorcycle based around their new philosophy of nurturing Airfix test pilots?
I thought they at least took couple of sips when they were in parc ferme or on podium to promote. I know the plastic bottle w/straw had water or Gatorade type of drink in it (whiskey in Colin's bottle), but had no idea they emptied the can & poured water in them too! I just thought it was interesting & funny they got caught in the act, haha.
Joined Oct 2006
445 Posts | 43+
Adelaide, Australia
You rang?
You don't like Dani because he complained about a 'hard move' after losing a race? Fair enough, although you must have a long list of riders you dislike. I don't think there was much in it--either the move or the post-race comments; it's not like these two are suddenly back to handbags-at-dawn. Pedrosa (and Luthi in Qatar, for that matter) should have yielded the corner instead of trying to hang in there--just like Lorenzo himself did a few laps later when Pedrosa came back into the lead. If this rumbles on to the next round (and beyond) you may have a point, but it doesn't seem much different to Lorenzo being critical of Stoner's pass after Laguna Seca in 2011...
As for the anit-wheelie stuff, Pedrosa did address that, and basically shrugged it off as '.... Happens.' It certainly wasn't the reason he lost the race as you seem to be implying. As you later point out, the Lorenzo/Yamaha package was superior on the day. The Respol guys both said they got their tyre choice wrong, but I wonder if the Hondas would have lasted on the softer options...
Bautista's pace in FP2 might be a sign of things to come on his non-factory spec bike, or he might just have been running around putting in quasi-qualifying laps for ..... and giggles at a track he likes. It's too sad to think about what Marco might have done.
Actually, they might have. And here I have to concede a point to Arrabbiata1 from an earlier discussion: HRC did expect more from Pedrosa in the 2006 season than just running around find his feet in the top class. I had forgotten about his smaller capacity class championships--or, more precisly, forgotten that all 3 were in fact consecutive prior to his joining Repsol HRC! Yes, they would've expected big things, and that he might be the guy to beat Rossi. Given all the hype about Marquez being the 'real deal' with a less impressive resume, how could they not? Yet, while Pedrosa has in fact beaten Rossi in 3 of the 6 years he's contested the MotoGP championship, he's never come close to winning a title. And that, to me, suggests those touting Marquez as the next big thing should be more circumspect.
If Honda snapped their fingers to change the formula because of one rider, it was because of Kato. Not Pedrosa, not Rossi. Besides, the move to 800cc was first mooted in 2003, when Rossi was still riding for Honda. I have no doubt Honda also believed that they would benefit most in any switch to a new formula because they have more money and resources to spend than their competitors; that didn't actually pan out in 2007 (as Arabbiata1 mentioned), and it might not in 2012, either.
'Rising Sun' would beg to differ I'm afraid. Personally I agree, although I do believe that you are underestimating the faith and belief that HRC had in Pedrosa. To beat Rossi? - Honda's great white hope had been Kato. Meantime, they gauged great potential in Nicky - because at that time Honda America was full factory and he was clearly rewarded well - even so the sudden quantum leap into Moto GP surprised many particularly in view of the fact that they gazumped a signed contract with Yamaha in the process. Cynics would insist that this great potential was primarily from a marketing perspective. I also agree that HRC weren't expecting Nicky to win the title in '06 simply in my opinion because the plan was for Dani to clinch it instead. I remember talking to Toby Moody, Dennis Noyes and Doohan amongst others over the course of the 2006 Laguna race weekend - all of them kind enough to stop and answer my questions. They all stated emphatically that the HRC grand plan was for Pedrosa to take the title and hand it to Rossi in his maiden season and that he was expected to do this because HRC believed he was good enough. Another reason why I have always maintained that unlike Hayden he was not saddled with testing the internals for the ghastly RC212v. In the event - the evo version of the RC2111V proved to have its own strengths - which combined with Nicky's superb unfailing and relentless consistency, self belief and hard work, alongside the fortuitous wrong turn that Yamaha made that season (and somewhat contentiously - some would say the first turn Catalunya incident) contrived to win Nicky the title.....(in spite of Dani's best attempts to scupper this) .
You rang, again?
See above. Although, since you mention the EVO bike, I wonder why they didn't give it to Pedrosa instead at the start of the year? As for Hayden testing the internals: I've asked this question before many times, and never recieved a satisfactory answer: why, if all the parts that were being thrown at him and Benson (in the 2nd half of the season, particularly) were deterimental to his championship effort did they not tell HRC to get ......? Seriously, why did the guy who, at Estoril in 2006, repeatedly pounded the gravel in fury (in spite of a cracked bone in his shoulder from a previous fall) while giving a primal scream that was heard in Owensboro, drop his pants, bend over and take it?
No question? No chance! Sadly, Kato died in April 2003, long before Pedrosa had won any of his championships. Despite showing promise in the 2002 season where he finished 3rd in the 125cc championship, Pedrosa was never part of any plans to be in a dream team with Kato. Was Marquez part of some future dream team at the beginning of 2010? Hell, this time two years ago Marquez only just won his first race. In any case, at that stage in 2003, I imagine any 'dream factory Honda team' might have been Kato and Rossi.
Do you have a link for these meeting minutes (not that I imagine these sorts of things are generally published), or any statements by Honda stating their categorical opposition to 800cc bikes? It's long been accepted that Honda had a big say in the 800cc formula (even if the reasons are debatable
Joined Oct 2006
445 Posts | 43+
Adelaide, Australia
Yes, that's Pedrosa's fault, right?
More to the point, that was exactly what J4rno claimed.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Incorrect - Daijiro didn't pass away long before Dani won any of his championships it was at the start of that season - the same year 2003. I think Dani was regarded as the future prior to this but ahead of that HRC were as you say certainly keen to place Kato alongside Rossi. However, by late '02 Valentino had already expressed in no uncertain terms his disaffection with Honda an even overtures towards leaving for another manufacture due to a close season dispute over image rights.
So yeah - no question.
Sigh....Once again, regarding Nicky, the long term goal of the Evo bike was actually to improve the stability of the bike under braking - (something which Yamaha had exploited to devastating effect) through shortening the motor in order to provide a longer swinging arm utilising the same wheel base. Actually - initially most of the internals were unchanged but when it transpired that the evo bike was slightly down on top end and had lost many of its prior advantages particularly traction out of corners Hayden and crew were unimpressed - but given the improvement in corner entry and the long term benefits Hayden agreed to ride it for 5 GP's. As progress was made with the dodgy diaphragm clutch - helped by a discarded launch programme intended for Gibbers, traction also began to improve with changes to the shock positioning and swing arm. The Evo bike - probably one of the rarest HRC race bikes in history - improved very quickly. By mid season with the chassis design sitting well with Nicky and Pete Benson, that's when the internals for the RC212v began to be tested by Nicky, but the bike was working and responding so well I would suggest by Brno - if not as early as Sachsenring, they had become a significant requirement of the EVO programme. Certainly at Laguna, Pedrosa - having come up to Moto GP with a better record than Rossi, was viewed by HRC as the championship protagonist - while Nicky was increasingly encumbered by testing. Hayden was contractually obliged to test parts for Honda - what was he supposed to do? His outrage in a gravel trap at Estoril, believing his title hopes to be dashed, were highly un-Haydenesque and unlikely to be reproduced in 'HRC Towers' Asaka, similarly pummelling a board room table in frustration or bludgeoning Satoru Horiike in the face with a paperweight over testing obligations.
Regarding Pedrosa's protestations over Jorge last weekend - yeah I do dislike him for that - and yeah I do tend to dislike riders that object without due cause - or cry over 'spilt milk'.....I mean can you imagine for one moment Casey doing that?
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
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