Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
povol
Amigo...Yes U've said this before, and every time I've called ......... U think them signing pol over say redding or cal was because the spaniel is better? Flush out ur headgear. Brits arent backed by brit teams nor germans backed by german teams nor their title sponsors from respective countries (geez, DePuniet was never signed by the French team was he?); but u demand Americans have to so they can make it? Where do u think Monster is from? The series is highjacked by Spaniels. The most obvious gets past u my friend. What needs to happen for u to accept it? Does Fox need to report: "newsflash, motogp is a spanish cup...all others tokens." If the blatant favoring of Spanish riders regardless of their overhyped ability isn't obvious to you, then nothing can help you understand. You've swallowed the ........ explanation that Spain has got this awesome rider academy and national series churing out top riders. Complete .........
Their national series riders wouldn't stand a chance going head to head with similar equipment in the AMA or BSB. Their kids are no more dedicated and prepared than are the ones from America, Australia, and Britain. The ones from these English speaking nations who race all started like all the rest, at 3 years of age and dedicating their entire energy to making it. Their skills are in tact. How have you swallowed the ........ and convinced yourself that Spanish kids are more apt to motoracing than other kids who have had the same upbringing in the sport? Take any good name from the AMA or BSB, and guess what, they all started off in minimotos, then through the ranks of respective amature series, then pro. But we are supposed to believe because the Spaniels overhyped national series riders keep appearing in Dorna owned CEV/Moto3/2 that suddenly they must be better? The problem is that the seats in a series called MotoGP and its lower categories are tightly controlled! Their CEV series IS their feeder series! I say again, their CEV series is their feeder series! When was the last time you saw on TV/computer one of their races? Off the top of your head can you name me 3 riders in the CEV? I can name you 5-10 riders from each category in BSB. How about torrents, have you ever downloaded torrents for the CEV? None, never. .... they're even for free on the GP site, and nobody gives one .... about them. Yet the BSB and AMA torrents are downloaded like crack in LA.
The ....... GP series is a fixed affair favoring .... Spaniels. THIS is WHY you have so many Spaniels...NOT because they are any better. (Ha) Case in point, Cal has been killing it for TechTwats, while Pol has done jack .... so far where it was outed that they had signed him way early this season but couldn't announce it until they figured out a way to force Cal's hand (oh wait, Krops mentioned Pol had a 125cc Spanish title, whatever this counts for, which btw, would be the equivalent of some kid making it to Moto2 because he won an AMA supersport title...no no, not the old "supersport title" which actually meant something back in the day, the new one were kids ride around in stock bikes, and while I'm at it, Pol's brother Alex has won far less...and peeps talking about gifting that Spaniel a prototype), other than that he hasnt won a title against the guys that hes competed which have now moved on. Currently Moto2 is depleted and he is still runner up...again. Guess who will appear to be the better rider next year, Cal or the .... Spaniel? The reality is basically as follows: You handicap some good riders from unfavored countries and elevate decent/good riders from Spain...of course the Spaniels are gonna 'appear' better. Again the Spanish get the best bikes and teams...u then conclude...well they must be the best. Stellar.
Amigo...Yes U've said this before, and every time I've called ......... U think them signing pol over say redding or cal was because the spaniel is better? Flush out ur headgear. Brits arent backed by brit teams nor germans backed by german teams nor their title sponsors from respective countries (geez, DePuniet was never signed by the French team was he?); but u demand Americans have to so they can make it? Where do u think Monster is from? The series is highjacked by Spaniels. The most obvious gets past u my friend. What needs to happen for u to accept it? Does Fox need to report: "newsflash, motogp is a spanish cup...all others tokens." If the blatant favoring of Spanish riders regardless of their overhyped ability isn't obvious to you, then nothing can help you understand. You've swallowed the ........ explanation that Spain has got this awesome rider academy and national series churing out top riders. Complete .........
Their national series riders wouldn't stand a chance going head to head with similar equipment in the AMA or BSB. Their kids are no more dedicated and prepared than are the ones from America, Australia, and Britain. The ones from these English speaking nations who race all started like all the rest, at 3 years of age and dedicating their entire energy to making it. Their skills are in tact. How have you swallowed the ........ and convinced yourself that Spanish kids are more apt to motoracing than other kids who have had the same upbringing in the sport? Take any good name from the AMA or BSB, and guess what, they all started off in minimotos, then through the ranks of respective amature series, then pro. But we are supposed to believe because the Spaniels overhyped national series riders keep appearing in Dorna owned CEV/Moto3/2 that suddenly they must be better? The problem is that the seats in a series called MotoGP and its lower categories are tightly controlled! Their CEV series IS their feeder series! I say again, their CEV series is their feeder series! When was the last time you saw on TV/computer one of their races? Off the top of your head can you name me 3 riders in the CEV? I can name you 5-10 riders from each category in BSB. How about torrents, have you ever downloaded torrents for the CEV? None, never. .... they're even for free on the GP site, and nobody gives one .... about them. Yet the BSB and AMA torrents are downloaded like crack in LA.
The ....... GP series is a fixed affair favoring .... Spaniels. THIS is WHY you have so many Spaniels...NOT because they are any better. (Ha) Case in point, Cal has been killing it for TechTwats, while Pol has done jack .... so far where it was outed that they had signed him way early this season but couldn't announce it until they figured out a way to force Cal's hand (oh wait, Krops mentioned Pol had a 125cc Spanish title, whatever this counts for, which btw, would be the equivalent of some kid making it to Moto2 because he won an AMA supersport title...no no, not the old "supersport title" which actually meant something back in the day, the new one were kids ride around in stock bikes, and while I'm at it, Pol's brother Alex has won far less...and peeps talking about gifting that Spaniel a prototype), other than that he hasnt won a title against the guys that hes competed which have now moved on. Currently Moto2 is depleted and he is still runner up...again. Guess who will appear to be the better rider next year, Cal or the .... Spaniel? The reality is basically as follows: You handicap some good riders from unfavored countries and elevate decent/good riders from Spain...of course the Spaniels are gonna 'appear' better. Again the Spanish get the best bikes and teams...u then conclude...well they must be the best. Stellar.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Mental Anarchist
Very different story. Stoner is a good example of what I was saying. Having a bad character is not an unsurmountable obstacle if you can ride like nobody else can. The difference with Biaggi is that Honda is ready to give Casey an HRC machine and a truckload of money anytime. Love him or hate him... who cares.
Very different story. Stoner is a good example of what I was saying. Having a bad character is not an unsurmountable obstacle if you can ride like nobody else can. The difference with Biaggi is that Honda is ready to give Casey an HRC machine and a truckload of money anytime. Love him or hate him... who cares.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Jumkie
If you cant accept that Lorenzo, Marquez, and Pedrosa are 3 of the top riders in the world, thats your prejudice. After them, the rest of the racing world is mostly interchangable. The difference in Pol and Redding and other Spanish riders in GP is more than likely the sponsorship they can bring to the team. I wouldnt flip a coin for the difference between the 2, or ten other riders around the globe who are the same. Crutchlow is no better than Hayden or Spies, besides, he could have stayed at Tech 3 but he chose to go for the check, hardly Pols problem. Tech 3 ran two Brits this year, There are 6 Spaniards in Moto GP out of 24 slots,and 3 of them are the best riders in the world . Not as dramatic as you make it out to be huh. But then again, rarely are things as dramatic as you make them out to be .
If you cant accept that Lorenzo, Marquez, and Pedrosa are 3 of the top riders in the world, thats your prejudice. After them, the rest of the racing world is mostly interchangable. The difference in Pol and Redding and other Spanish riders in GP is more than likely the sponsorship they can bring to the team. I wouldnt flip a coin for the difference between the 2, or ten other riders around the globe who are the same. Crutchlow is no better than Hayden or Spies, besides, he could have stayed at Tech 3 but he chose to go for the check, hardly Pols problem. Tech 3 ran two Brits this year, There are 6 Spaniards in Moto GP out of 24 slots,and 3 of them are the best riders in the world . Not as dramatic as you make it out to be huh. But then again, rarely are things as dramatic as you make them out to be .
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
[quote name="povol" post="357576" timestamp="1375759673"]
If you cant accept that Lorenzo, Marquez, and Pedrosa are 3 of the top riders in the world, thats your prejudice. After them, the rest of the racing world is mostly interchangable. The difference in Pol and Redding and other Spanish riders in GP is more than likely the sponsorship they can bring to the team. I wouldnt flip a coin for the difference between the 2, or ten other riders around the globe who are the same. Crutchlow is no better than Hayden or Spies, besides, he could have stayed at Tech 3 but he chose to go for the check, hardly Pols problem. Tech 3 ran two Brits this year, There are 6 Spaniards in Moto GP out of 24 slots,and 3 of them are the best riders in the world . Not as dramatic as you make it out to be huh. But then again, rarely are things as dramatic as you make them out to be .[/quote]
I edited my post above. Though it was much of the same, you've swallowed the ........, period. Many people thought Rossi was "the top rider in the world" until he was handicapped with less equipment. But people will continue to ignore the obvious lesson...and say stupid .... like what I've highlighted above. The forum has a long memory, go back and read what people said how he would perform on the Ducati....yes, the bike that had been wining races. Today you have similar ..... claiming this ........ about Marquez...that even on a Duc he would be wining. You can continue to believe Lorenzo Marquez and Pedrosa are some superhuman riders capable of whatever you think, but put them on Alvaro's bike and we would be talking something different....... lets shelve putting them on a Ducati. Why this simple reality is so misunderstood in GP is beyond me (I guess people are just stupid I guess)...hell even our resident supposed experts drink up this same ......... Yes, we are talking about the three supposed aliens that can't win when some little issue is wrong with their bike in the chance that their other 3 rivals got a better set up (yes, that is limited to 4). These are very good riders on the BEST, the VERY BEST bikes and teams! Anything less would result in the sudden demotion that they are not the best! Usually its uneducated fans who cannot understand the parity of the sport and declare them the best in the world by simply looking at the finishing order. Come on buddy.
If you cant accept that Lorenzo, Marquez, and Pedrosa are 3 of the top riders in the world, thats your prejudice. After them, the rest of the racing world is mostly interchangable. The difference in Pol and Redding and other Spanish riders in GP is more than likely the sponsorship they can bring to the team. I wouldnt flip a coin for the difference between the 2, or ten other riders around the globe who are the same. Crutchlow is no better than Hayden or Spies, besides, he could have stayed at Tech 3 but he chose to go for the check, hardly Pols problem. Tech 3 ran two Brits this year, There are 6 Spaniards in Moto GP out of 24 slots,and 3 of them are the best riders in the world . Not as dramatic as you make it out to be huh. But then again, rarely are things as dramatic as you make them out to be .[/quote]
I edited my post above. Though it was much of the same, you've swallowed the ........, period. Many people thought Rossi was "the top rider in the world" until he was handicapped with less equipment. But people will continue to ignore the obvious lesson...and say stupid .... like what I've highlighted above. The forum has a long memory, go back and read what people said how he would perform on the Ducati....yes, the bike that had been wining races. Today you have similar ..... claiming this ........ about Marquez...that even on a Duc he would be wining. You can continue to believe Lorenzo Marquez and Pedrosa are some superhuman riders capable of whatever you think, but put them on Alvaro's bike and we would be talking something different....... lets shelve putting them on a Ducati. Why this simple reality is so misunderstood in GP is beyond me (I guess people are just stupid I guess)...hell even our resident supposed experts drink up this same ......... Yes, we are talking about the three supposed aliens that can't win when some little issue is wrong with their bike in the chance that their other 3 rivals got a better set up (yes, that is limited to 4). These are very good riders on the BEST, the VERY BEST bikes and teams! Anything less would result in the sudden demotion that they are not the best! Usually its uneducated fans who cannot understand the parity of the sport and declare them the best in the world by simply looking at the finishing order. Come on buddy.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
There are simple and not-so-simple repostes to your post, Jum.
Simple:
Why do top riders get paid so much?
After all if there's little differentiate them, if I were Shuhei, I'd be seeing who brings along the biggest pile of sponsor's cheques and weighing them (Ford style) to see who gets their hands on my precious RCV.
Not so simple:
This is a slight corollary of 'Simple': Success begets Success.
Even at Metrakit/JuniorGP level where the playing field is intended to be more even, ostensibly allowing talent to shine, you see parents (dads...) throwing piles of cash at the bikes. Why, because a win is a win and looks good on your CV. Good CV, better opportunity with sponsors, and you start riding the elevator upwards. An elevator powered by cash.
There is no doubt at all stages the talent to beat rivals must be there, but what sponsor (except some fruitcake good samaritan) is going to throw cash at the guy coming 12th on a 4 year old R6 on shagged tyres in a local superstock race? Even if they thought they could spot the 'talent' - and it would be very hard to spot back in twelfth - they'll be looking up the front of the field. The front where the money has been spent. The answer is spec series at the bottom end, but there'll always be a point/class where the cash becomes a necessity.
This is not to say that riders buy their way up, but it is definitely talent, dedication, the bike and the support that brings success, and that is at all levels.
Simple:
Why do top riders get paid so much?
After all if there's little differentiate them, if I were Shuhei, I'd be seeing who brings along the biggest pile of sponsor's cheques and weighing them (Ford style) to see who gets their hands on my precious RCV.
Not so simple:
This is a slight corollary of 'Simple': Success begets Success.
Even at Metrakit/JuniorGP level where the playing field is intended to be more even, ostensibly allowing talent to shine, you see parents (dads...) throwing piles of cash at the bikes. Why, because a win is a win and looks good on your CV. Good CV, better opportunity with sponsors, and you start riding the elevator upwards. An elevator powered by cash.
There is no doubt at all stages the talent to beat rivals must be there, but what sponsor (except some fruitcake good samaritan) is going to throw cash at the guy coming 12th on a 4 year old R6 on shagged tyres in a local superstock race? Even if they thought they could spot the 'talent' - and it would be very hard to spot back in twelfth - they'll be looking up the front of the field. The front where the money has been spent. The answer is spec series at the bottom end, but there'll always be a point/class where the cash becomes a necessity.
This is not to say that riders buy their way up, but it is definitely talent, dedication, the bike and the support that brings success, and that is at all levels.
Joined Feb 2008
3K Posts | 470+
Outback Steakhouse
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
evo9
The incident at Assen in Parc Ferme with then fellow HRC rider Melandri, (following their on track shenanigans during qualifying), which witnessed Max's Uncle vault the barrier and throttle Marco wasn't a tremendous career move either.
The rivalry endured into WSB culminating in Max storming into Melandri's garage and slapping him around the face at Donington in 2011 in front of the cameras. It could have been worse though, he could have told him his ambition outweighed his talent. That would've really hurt.
The incident at Assen in Parc Ferme with then fellow HRC rider Melandri, (following their on track shenanigans during qualifying), which witnessed Max's Uncle vault the barrier and throttle Marco wasn't a tremendous career move either.
The rivalry endured into WSB culminating in Max storming into Melandri's garage and slapping him around the face at Donington in 2011 in front of the cameras. It could have been worse though, he could have told him his ambition outweighed his talent. That would've really hurt.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Jum has painted himself into a corner and is doubling down on his silly theory that Marquez is nothing special, and given equal equipment, all the riders would fare the same. Would Marquez win on Bautista's bike? Maybe, maybe not, but with his team adjusting the bike, i would bet big money he would be further up the standings than Bautista. Give him Bradls bike and he would win the same races he has won this season. He is simply better. He has been better than the competition in every class of GP, and contray to what Jumkie spews, he was not on a cheater bike in Moto2. Quite the opposite according to people who actually know something about the sport. Its all about his belief system, that there are no elite, given equal opportunity, everyone will progress the same. When that fails to materialize,they need to dumb down the game to equalize results. As we have seen , this does not work in life, and it does not work in sport. Face it, some are just better than others. It is recognized by those who pay the bills, and they are advanced and compensated.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
It wasnt that funny. Well maybe for the .... spaniel bit. But I could see how that bit might make u smile.
Pov, Marc is special but he wouldn't be winning on Alvaro's bike given a healthy Lorenzo or Pedro against works factory. Thats the point. Even the great talent of Stoner (on a works RCV) could not mitigate a minor chatter problem into wins against a well sorted M1 Lorenzo on his works bike. But continue to ignore reality and just repeat the same ........ that was said about VR before reality bit.
As for Marc on a cheater...well who knows, Bradley said it was a cheater and expert Krops called him a liar, then later Bradley said Marc was fast and Krops called him a genius. Kinda like Fox. U only listen to the opinion that suits u.
A few interesting facts about the Spanish championship:
In 2006, when Pol Espargaro became Spanish 125 champion, he beat Tito Rabat, Jonas Folger and Kev Coghlan
In 2007, Stefan Bradl was 125 champ, ahead of Scott Redding and Efren Vazquez
2008 was an all-Spanish affair, with Vazquez beating Luis Salom and Pere Tutusaus, First non-Spaniard was Joey Litjens (whose biography I have just finished reading).
2009 was the turn of Alberto Moncayo, who finished ahead of Maverick Vinales and Miguel Oliveira (who is Portuguese)
2010 was Vinales, Oliveira and Alex Rins
2011 was Alex Rins from Alex Marquez, followed by Francesco Bagnaia, an Italian
2012 was Alex Marquez ahead of Luca Amato (a German), and Bagnaia
This year, there 14 Spaniards racing in the Moto3 class. 14 out of 35 riders. A Spaniard, Marcos Ramirez, is leading, ahead of Dutchman Bryan Schouten, with Maria Herrera, another Spaniard, in third.
If you want to compare the level of the Spanish championship to the AMA, there is a very good example. American rider Joe Roberts is doing relatively well in the Red Bull Rookies Cup (which has also produced a mass of talent), but he goes to AMA Supersport, riding a 600 he's never seen before, and cleans up, 5 out of 5. Look at the riders dominating in DSB: Beaubier and Gagne are both former Rookies, and Beaubier is untouchable in Daytona Sportbike. Yet he was only top 6 when he raced in the Spanish championship.
In 2006, when Pol Espargaro became Spanish 125 champion, he beat Tito Rabat, Jonas Folger and Kev Coghlan
In 2007, Stefan Bradl was 125 champ, ahead of Scott Redding and Efren Vazquez
2008 was an all-Spanish affair, with Vazquez beating Luis Salom and Pere Tutusaus, First non-Spaniard was Joey Litjens (whose biography I have just finished reading).
2009 was the turn of Alberto Moncayo, who finished ahead of Maverick Vinales and Miguel Oliveira (who is Portuguese)
2010 was Vinales, Oliveira and Alex Rins
2011 was Alex Rins from Alex Marquez, followed by Francesco Bagnaia, an Italian
2012 was Alex Marquez ahead of Luca Amato (a German), and Bagnaia
This year, there 14 Spaniards racing in the Moto3 class. 14 out of 35 riders. A Spaniard, Marcos Ramirez, is leading, ahead of Dutchman Bryan Schouten, with Maria Herrera, another Spaniard, in third.
If you want to compare the level of the Spanish championship to the AMA, there is a very good example. American rider Joe Roberts is doing relatively well in the Red Bull Rookies Cup (which has also produced a mass of talent), but he goes to AMA Supersport, riding a 600 he's never seen before, and cleans up, 5 out of 5. Look at the riders dominating in DSB: Beaubier and Gagne are both former Rookies, and Beaubier is untouchable in Daytona Sportbike. Yet he was only top 6 when he raced in the Spanish championship.
Spaniards on average are better riders...
Not because of genetics but due to the legacy of support and training infrastructure and weather.
They also start a bit younger, which has massive implications on 125cc bikes. The size differences don't even begin to even out until MotoGP.
The talent of Mladin, Hayes, Ganye, Baubier is validated by Spies. Hayes finished 7th at Valencia for gods sake!
Pol is fast and challenged MM for a bit. Redding is even faster. Non spaniards need to pull their heads out and talk to guys like LCR who know how to raise money. Honestly, Jordan/Nike, Rizoma, Gillete, FedEx would all sponsor if approached properly
Not because of genetics but due to the legacy of support and training infrastructure and weather.
They also start a bit younger, which has massive implications on 125cc bikes. The size differences don't even begin to even out until MotoGP.
The talent of Mladin, Hayes, Ganye, Baubier is validated by Spies. Hayes finished 7th at Valencia for gods sake!
Pol is fast and challenged MM for a bit. Redding is even faster. Non spaniards need to pull their heads out and talk to guys like LCR who know how to raise money. Honestly, Jordan/Nike, Rizoma, Gillete, FedEx would all sponsor if approached properly
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
povol
I agree entirely..although elements of Jum's contention that the annointed few are for a myriad of reasons consistently conferred the best equipment is in part equally as valid.
What has always amazed me about Marquez is his insane ability to open on the throttle so convincingly and so ludicrously early and at such impossible angles. Pedrosa adapted very quickly to Moto GP from a 250 realising the importance of lifting/snapping the bike upright to get back on the power as early as possible - doesn't seem to be such a concern to Marc. On a Moto 2 bike this innate speed and talent combined with his weight advantage lead many to erroneously percieve (including some paddock insiders) that the series was fixed. This uncanny 'Stoneresque' knack of pinning the gas so instantly and with such fervency was reproduced almost immediately upon his deserved graduation to the Repsol RCV213v (abolishment of the rookie rule or not).
I had a lengthy debate with Jum during a long drive accross the border to Mexico once about the mythology surrounding and built around the term 'aliens' - a term and view he absolutely abhors and make no mistake buttresses this dislike with a highly compelling arguement. My simple answer to this is watch footage of Stoner. Leaving Ducati aside for now, on the Honda, best bike or not he was doing things that the rest of the field couldn't even conceive of. If we do then factor in his rides on the Desmo we are indeed dabbling in the realms of the supernatural. Many riders including Rossi followed him on track and concluded that they could see what he was doing but simply couldn't comprehend how he was doing it.
Today, Pov's notion of switching riders illustrates this well. I believe that Marquez and his crew - where not achieving the same remarkable results as we've witnessed in the Repsol fold, would nonetheless regularly be scoring podiums and still challenging for wins on the Gresini Honda. Conversely, if we stuck Bautista and his crew into Marc's garage is one honestly able to say with a straight face he could challenge Pedrosa (for all Dani's perceived mental and phsychological fragility) - far less ride it like Casey or Marc? I invite you to try. Bautista simply isn't of the same ilk. If you similarly transplanted the currently very fast and in form Cal onto Jorge's full factory machine - which relies upon a very unique individualised set up and cerebral style, poised and balanced within a precise wafer thin envelope/equilibrium of effectiveness - he'd fail to exploit the 'advantage' - I think the pressure would get to him too...(and I've always saluted his 'couldn't give a .... attitude which in part owes to where he is, given how far he's come). The fact that Lorenzo and Marquez have the rides that they do cannot be simply reduced to a passport, sponsorship or a Spanish owned series. Likewise there is a reason why Pedrosa has retained his tenure on the top Honda for eight years in the absence of a title (albeit I concede, aided by a complex sequence of fate, happenstance and politics).
Much in the same way as Stoner before him, or Lorenzo now, Marquez exudes confidence through an unearthly talent and a will to win identical to many of his predecessors amongst the pantheon of greats to have graced the rich history of this series. Machinery aside for now..for me, it was and continues to be, these qualities that define and differentiate such gifted sportsmen from the competition and predicates the term alien.
Bring back the Pro Am Yamaha LC series - one of the closest cut throat and most equitable championships in the history of motorsport, (if you haven't heard of it BJC it). Sling the keys in a hat each race - put the entire moto GP grid out there - line 'em up and although it'd be far closer racing, a natural order would soon evolve and emerge throughout the year. I'd lay my left (or right) testicle on the line that Marquez would win it hands down..and come to think of it, where balls are concerned, Cal wouldn't be far behind. (I'd be quite interested to hear Barry's views on the latter - no stranger himself to talking bollocks).
I agree entirely..although elements of Jum's contention that the annointed few are for a myriad of reasons consistently conferred the best equipment is in part equally as valid.
What has always amazed me about Marquez is his insane ability to open on the throttle so convincingly and so ludicrously early and at such impossible angles. Pedrosa adapted very quickly to Moto GP from a 250 realising the importance of lifting/snapping the bike upright to get back on the power as early as possible - doesn't seem to be such a concern to Marc. On a Moto 2 bike this innate speed and talent combined with his weight advantage lead many to erroneously percieve (including some paddock insiders) that the series was fixed. This uncanny 'Stoneresque' knack of pinning the gas so instantly and with such fervency was reproduced almost immediately upon his deserved graduation to the Repsol RCV213v (abolishment of the rookie rule or not).
I had a lengthy debate with Jum during a long drive accross the border to Mexico once about the mythology surrounding and built around the term 'aliens' - a term and view he absolutely abhors and make no mistake buttresses this dislike with a highly compelling arguement. My simple answer to this is watch footage of Stoner. Leaving Ducati aside for now, on the Honda, best bike or not he was doing things that the rest of the field couldn't even conceive of. If we do then factor in his rides on the Desmo we are indeed dabbling in the realms of the supernatural. Many riders including Rossi followed him on track and concluded that they could see what he was doing but simply couldn't comprehend how he was doing it.
Today, Pov's notion of switching riders illustrates this well. I believe that Marquez and his crew - where not achieving the same remarkable results as we've witnessed in the Repsol fold, would nonetheless regularly be scoring podiums and still challenging for wins on the Gresini Honda. Conversely, if we stuck Bautista and his crew into Marc's garage is one honestly able to say with a straight face he could challenge Pedrosa (for all Dani's perceived mental and phsychological fragility) - far less ride it like Casey or Marc? I invite you to try. Bautista simply isn't of the same ilk. If you similarly transplanted the currently very fast and in form Cal onto Jorge's full factory machine - which relies upon a very unique individualised set up and cerebral style, poised and balanced within a precise wafer thin envelope/equilibrium of effectiveness - he'd fail to exploit the 'advantage' - I think the pressure would get to him too...(and I've always saluted his 'couldn't give a .... attitude which in part owes to where he is, given how far he's come). The fact that Lorenzo and Marquez have the rides that they do cannot be simply reduced to a passport, sponsorship or a Spanish owned series. Likewise there is a reason why Pedrosa has retained his tenure on the top Honda for eight years in the absence of a title (albeit I concede, aided by a complex sequence of fate, happenstance and politics).
Much in the same way as Stoner before him, or Lorenzo now, Marquez exudes confidence through an unearthly talent and a will to win identical to many of his predecessors amongst the pantheon of greats to have graced the rich history of this series. Machinery aside for now..for me, it was and continues to be, these qualities that define and differentiate such gifted sportsmen from the competition and predicates the term alien.
Bring back the Pro Am Yamaha LC series - one of the closest cut throat and most equitable championships in the history of motorsport, (if you haven't heard of it BJC it). Sling the keys in a hat each race - put the entire moto GP grid out there - line 'em up and although it'd be far closer racing, a natural order would soon evolve and emerge throughout the year. I'd lay my left (or right) testicle on the line that Marquez would win it hands down..and come to think of it, where balls are concerned, Cal wouldn't be far behind. (I'd be quite interested to hear Barry's views on the latter - no stranger himself to talking bollocks).
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Jumkie
Sorry Jum, you trivialise this. Initially the softer carcass tyre was a major problem - one which Stoner largely rode around and unlike Dani, (with the exception of Sachsenring) was beginning to surmount before the solution was rolled out at Laguna.
3576041375797325
It wasnt that funny. Well maybe for the .... spaniel bit. But I could see how that bit might make u smile.
Sorry Jum, you trivialise this. Initially the softer carcass tyre was a major problem - one which Stoner largely rode around and unlike Dani, (with the exception of Sachsenring) was beginning to surmount before the solution was rolled out at Laguna.
Arrabbiata1
From an interview with Sylvain Guintoli on Crash.net:
Crash.net:
Can you put your finger on what makes the Ducati Desmosedici so difficult?
Sylvain Guintoli:
If I knew, I'd probably still be there. In short, I don't know.
I'm not the only one who broke his arse on that bike. It's a very different bike in many ways and at the time it was also different to the one they're using now, we were using the tubular frame. It's a bike I enjoyed riding but it just wasn't fast.
To this day there was only one rider who could make the bloody thing work. Some people say the front end is vague but if you look at how Casey was using it, you could say there was no massive problem with the bike because he could do it. He's not a bloody magician, he just understood it. Either he was more clever or more brave, whatever, he was permanently 'on it' on that bike.
We had his data available to us and I remember looking at it and thinking ''Fking hell, this guy is entering every corner like he doesn't want to get out'. He was doing things on the bike that you wouldn't normally do.
From an interview with Sylvain Guintoli on Crash.net:
Crash.net:
Can you put your finger on what makes the Ducati Desmosedici so difficult?
Sylvain Guintoli:
If I knew, I'd probably still be there. In short, I don't know.
I'm not the only one who broke his arse on that bike. It's a very different bike in many ways and at the time it was also different to the one they're using now, we were using the tubular frame. It's a bike I enjoyed riding but it just wasn't fast.
To this day there was only one rider who could make the bloody thing work. Some people say the front end is vague but if you look at how Casey was using it, you could say there was no massive problem with the bike because he could do it. He's not a bloody magician, he just understood it. Either he was more clever or more brave, whatever, he was permanently 'on it' on that bike.
We had his data available to us and I remember looking at it and thinking ''Fking hell, this guy is entering every corner like he doesn't want to get out'. He was doing things on the bike that you wouldn't normally do.
Arrabbiata1
I have put this idea forward before, yes I remember it well, yes MM would dominate, and yes the usual suspects would still be there or there abouts as they are the best.
I have put this idea forward before, yes I remember it well, yes MM would dominate, and yes the usual suspects would still be there or there abouts as they are the best.
Jum has made some good points. Instead of trying to shoot holes in his thoughts with isolated cases we should go back and read slowly what he is communicating to us.
Do we really want tire rules, gas rules, contract rules, grid rules and rider qualification rules or do we want a real competition on the TRACK ???
Notice no mention of ECU or CC limit because if CC's are limited to 500 then no need to ban TC, RL or FM. Electronic control will disappear into the vapor with lower CC's and we could probably pick up 4-5 factory teams.
Slower races ??? LOL the 250 single is only 8 seconds slower than the awesome 1000's per lap now. Ever wondered how long the 1000's hold their throttle wide open per lap. Bet it is not as much as you think it is.
As for now-------Spain Rules----- no I mean literally Spain Rules
Do we really want tire rules, gas rules, contract rules, grid rules and rider qualification rules or do we want a real competition on the TRACK ???
Notice no mention of ECU or CC limit because if CC's are limited to 500 then no need to ban TC, RL or FM. Electronic control will disappear into the vapor with lower CC's and we could probably pick up 4-5 factory teams.
Slower races ??? LOL the 250 single is only 8 seconds slower than the awesome 1000's per lap now. Ever wondered how long the 1000's hold their throttle wide open per lap. Bet it is not as much as you think it is.
As for now-------Spain Rules----- no I mean literally Spain Rules
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