Cal Cuntslow

michaelm · Jun 16, 2015

mylexicon said:
Besides stroking the 81mm 800cc engines to 1000cc, what changed between 2011 and 2012? Stoner climbed onto his moral mountaintop to tell everyone.

I suspect the same changes were made from 2014 to 2015.

Stoner shouldn't have been there in 2012 with less than full commitment as seemed to be the case. In partial defence Nakamoto has subsequently revealed he wanted to retire at the end of 2011 but was talked out of it ; perhaps he should have had more courage in his convictions.

He was blitzing the field in testing though before the late weight change was imposed on the fully developed bike, and they did also take away the tyres which suited him and for which the bike had been developed about a third of the way through the season; he didn't oppose the new tyre as I recall, just requested that both continued to be available.

Jumkie · Jun 16, 2015

Lorenzo has won 4 straight. A monumental achievement (especially if u consider the first 3 races he had already been written off.) YET he remains one point behind Rossi. Why? Marquez would be in a similar championship position to Rossi and Lorenzo if he didn't self-induced crashes. Then perhaps we wouldn't be reading complex rationalizations that the RCV had declined. Lotus, your analysis of the lap times in pole compared to last year (adjusting for conditions) makes an excellent argument that in fact the RCV has improved not declined. I guess the pundits expected Yamaha and Lorenzo /Rossi would just sit their with their dicks in hand letting Marquez run away with his rightful title. Weird that somebody would challenge for wins. So weird that it must be the Honda that has a mysteriously not allowed Marc to smash the field.

And while I'm at it, why didn't these same pundits use the logic they are now employing to claim the RCV rode itself last year? Wouldn't this be the logical conclusion if now the RCV is impeding wins?

nick891 · Jun 16, 2015

Just changing subject and going back to Cal Crutchlow for a moment, you have to wonder if LCR and Honda are sitting there thinking is he really worth it, why not just put Jack Miller on his ride next year and if you want to keep the current miller ride promote someone for moto2 like Rins.

Just say for the moment LCR move on from Cal where could he go. As each race goes past he shows more weaknesses.

A few season ago it was his great qualifying that set him apart but now it seems he can never put a whole lap together and well his racing is still pretty average at best.

JPSLotus · Jun 16, 2015

Jumkie said:
Lorenzo has won 4 straight. A monumental achievement (especially if u consider the first 3 races he had already been written off.) YET he remains one point behind Rossi. Why? Marquez would be in a similar championship position to Rossi and Lorenzo if he didn't self-induced crashes. Then perhaps we wouldn't be reading complex rationalizations that the RCV had declined. Lotus, your analysis of the lap times in pole compared to last year (adjusting for conditions) makes an excellent argument that in fact the RCV has improved not declined. I guess the pundits expected Yamaha and Lorenzo /Rossi would just sit their with their dicks in hand letting Marquez run away with his rightful title. Weird that somebody would challenge for wins. So weird that it must be the Honda that has a mysteriously not allowed Marc to smash the field.

And while I'm at it, why didn't these same pundits use the logic they are now employing to claim the RCV rode itself last year? Wouldn't this be the logical conclusion if now the RCV is impeding wins?

How do the pundits explain Marquez winning in Texas if the bike is so bad?

Here's what Krops had to say 2 months ago about Austin...

And in MotoGP, Marc Márquez rode around behind Andrea Dovizioso for four laps, assessing the way the track grip had changed since the much cooler warm up and qualifying sessions, before easily passing the Ducati, pulling a gap, and then managing it all the way home.

While Márquez rode a measured and competent race – and scored a win he badly needed to get his championship back on track – the battle behind him was the more interesting contest. Andrea Dovizioso once again locked horns with Valentino Rossi, this time coming out on top. Front tire wear would be the decisive factor, the Yamaha's corner speed taking its toll on the right hand of the tire. It was not just Yamaha who were affected, everyone was nursing their front tires, hence the slow start to the race. But the Ducatis made their tires last just that little bit longer than the Yamahas: Though Rossi took over second place from Dovizioso on lap 8, his pace began to falter on lap 16, and the Ducati man made his way into second again. Dovizioso managed the gap perfectly, pushing hard on the final lap to ensure he would not need to fend off any unwelcome advances from Valentino Rossi.

Not a single word uttered about the woes of the RCV. Not to mention he brings up the M1 as having problems as did everyone else reporting on MotoGP.

All anyone talked about was his magnificent pole, and his dominating race performance.

I mean Krops describes the race as "measured and competent" with the way MM ran it. Yet when he nearly torpedoes Lorenzo going into turn 10 at Catalunya because he doesn't know how to brake, or the other crash outs that were the result of over-zealous riding, it's labeled as a complete failure of the RCV. Corner entry, chassis stiffness, braking problems, MM not getting his .... sucked pre-race, etc.

What the .... is this ....?

When he does well it's because of his poise, yet when he crashes out of his own stupidity, it's the RCV at fault.

Jumkie · Jun 16, 2015

nick891 said:
Just changing subject and going back to Cal Crutchlow for a moment, you have to wonder if LCR and Honda are sitting there thinking is he really worth it, why not just put Jack Miller on his ride next year and if you want to keep the current miller ride promote someone for moto2 like Rins.

Just say for the moment LCR move on from Cal where could he go. As each race goes past he shows more weaknesses.

A few season ago it was his great qualifying that set him apart but now it seems he can never put a whole lap together and well his racing is still pretty average at best.

Right, back on topic. Crutches (because every year since he's been in GP he has at some point needed crutches) crashed with such regularity that it came down to the last event of the season to decide the 'rookie of the year' which he "won" against Karel Abraham who rode a 3rd tier Ducati WHEN the 1st tier Ducati was in fact a piece of .....

He blamed his crashes on the brakes if u guys recal. So then Ducati, to my dismay, hired him as the factory rider. And only crashed half the time talking .... about the bike every step (or should I say, every stumble). He quit half way into his contract ( but let's be honest he had quit race 1) and astonishingly was rewarded with a RCV (back when it was as well designed as the Space Shuttle, now apparently Sputnik). So he now has crashed with clockwork regularity on all 3 factory brands, YET Kropo is using his crashing on the RCV to support his claim that the Honda is a turd.

I'm actually LAUGHING OUT LOUD as I type this because really, it's so absurd. I mean come on people, Hollywood couldn't make these types of fantasy up. Hey look, Crutchlow is crashing, that's odd, you see tge RCV sucks. Haha

Crutchlow crashed in the 15 mins of qualifying and in the first 15 seconds of the race.

Keshav · Jun 16, 2015

mylexicon said:
Besides stroking the 81mm 800cc engines to 1000cc, what changed between 2011 and 2012? Stoner climbed onto his moral mountaintop to tell everyone.

I suspect the same changes were made from 2014 to 2015.

Well, no-one outside of Honda knows the answer. Even Cameron would only enumerate all the possibilities mooted by the press - but he did, tellingly - mention what we have heard for decades, that being, Honda is famous for taking a perfectly balanced bike and tweaking the engine performance in a manner that makes the bike less tractable. Sometimes the truth is right in plain sight; and as we all know, history has a way of repeating itself.

Keshav · Jun 16, 2015

Jumkie said:
Lorenzo has won 4 straight. A monumental achievement (especially if u consider the first 3 races he had already been written off.) YET he remains one point behind Rossi. Why? Marquez would be in a similar championship position to Rossi and Lorenzo if he didn't self-induced crashes. Then perhaps we wouldn't be reading complex rationalizations that the RCV had declined. Lotus, your analysis of the lap times in pole compared to last year (adjusting for conditions) makes an excellent argument that in fact the RCV has improved not declined. I guess the pundits expected Yamaha and Lorenzo /Rossi would just sit their with their dicks in hand letting Marquez run away with his rightful title. Weird that somebody would challenge for wins. So weird that it must be the Honda that has a mysteriously not allowed Marc to smash the field.

And while I'm at it, why didn't these same pundits use the logic they are now employing to claim the RCV rode itself last year? Wouldn't this be the logical conclusion if now the RCV is impeding wins?

JPSLotus said:
How do the pundits explain Marquez winning in Texas if the bike is so bad?

Here's what Krops had to say 2 months ago about Austin...

Not a single word uttered about the woes of the RCV. Not to mention he brings up the M1 as having problems as did everyone else reporting on MotoGP.

All anyone talked about was his magnificent pole, and his dominating race performance.

I mean Krops describes the race as "measured and competent" with the way MM ran it. Yet when he nearly torpedoes Lorenzo going into turn 10 at Catalunya because he doesn't know how to brake, or the other crash outs that were the result of over-zealous riding, it's labeled as a complete failure of the RCV. Corner entry, chassis stiffness, braking problems, MM not getting his .... sucked pre-race, etc.

What the .... is this ....?

When he does well it's because of his poise, yet when he crashes out of his own stupidity, it's the RCV at fault.

That some bikes are better suited to certain tracks is news to you guys? The fact that COTA is a relatively new track and none of the top riders have more experience at this track is a great leveler, and given how convincingly MM won there in the past - the smart money was on him. Now Marquez is contesting for wins at tracks where the old pros have vastly more MGP experience - any issues with the bike are going to be more of an issue.

Nobody is saying he isn't a jerk, but riders don't go from mercilessly dominating for two seasons, to being unable to finish a race in a new season for no reason at all. MM is in his prime and there's no logical reason to think his skill as a rider has evaporated overnight - for no apparent reason; no reason to think that he isn't just as capable as his competitors at "upping his game".

JPSLotus · Jun 16, 2015

Keshav said:
That some bikes are better suited to certain tracks is news to you guys? The fact that COTA is a relatively new track and none of the top riders have more experience at this track is a great leveler, and given how convincingly MM won there in the past - the smart money was on him. Now Marquez is contesting for wins at tracks where the old pros have vastly more MGP experience - any issues with the bike are going to be more of an issue.

Nobody is saying he isn't a jerk, but riders don't go from mercilessly dominating for two seasons, to being unable to finish a race in a new season for no reason at all. MM is in his prime and there's no logical reason to think his skill as a rider has evaporated overnight - for no apparent reason; no reason to think that he isn't just as capable as his competitors at "upping his game".

No one has saying he has evaporated, it's just the RCV has not made enough improvements relative to the M1.

Sweet jesus, he isn't finishing races because he has opted to do dumb ....... ...., and that's why he is crashing out.

Holding up Cal Cuntslow as another example for the woes of the RCV is hysterical for the reasons Jumkie outlined. This is a guy who would crash no matter the bike he is on, and has done precisely that his entire career. According to Cal, every bike is .... and it's always the bike that is at fault 99% of the time...sounds familiar right?

Jumkie · Jun 16, 2015

Kesh, please dont gloss over the fact that no deficiency in the RCV was noted by the pundits until Lorenzo started winning. That was Lotus' point. In other words this 'the decline of RCV' narrative was created from thin air, it didn't exist until it was necessary to rationalize the infallibility of Marquez. No .... some tracks are suited, this is the silver bullet to conclude the RCV is suddenly a piece of .... when in the unfathomable event that Marquez doesn't win? No not that his rivals are trying to win, but Marquez 's bike must be declared crap. Frankly your passive support of this narrative is laughable. You surmised Marc has "evolved" to be more mature rider, however your assessment has been sandwiched by two crashes! A torpedo at Argentina and a torpedo (which missed by stupid luck) at Catalunya. So basically if he is not crashing at the exact moment then your evolution period is defined by: at this very moment.

Marquez did NOT "mercilessly dominate" the last two seasons. You may need to revisit 2013, Lorenzo and Pedrosa were on Marc's ... until untimely clavicle injury. Lorenzo when healthy could hardly be beat. Revisit Valencia 2013, watch how Lorenzo astonishingly plays with the field at will. Revisit COTA, your silver bullet, Pedrosa was on Marc's ... all race, and if Pedro had a bit more bite may have won. Jerez, Pedrosa and Lorenzo were on Marc's ... until Marc punted Lorenzo (did we forget about that?). Aragon, Marc literally went up Pedrosa's ... (which means he was behind ). Perhaps you define "mercilessly dominant" similar to "evolution" in other words nothing to do with the actual meaning of the words.

"There is no logical reason why" he is crashing or being beat? Really Kesh? C'mon man, haven't you been reading the non-Kropo explanations? Newsflash, we HAVE been presenting a reason. You're not listening. I guess you prefer to defer to the prevailing "expert" opinion. These same hacks that got it spectacularly WRONG regarding the 07 'Ducati rides itself' narrative, the 07-2010 'Stoner sucks if Rossi was on a Ducati he would win' narative, the 2011 'Its not Rossi ' s fault' narrative. But you're gonna buy the new 2015 'The RCV is ....' narrative? It's not a mystery. There IS a reason Marc has not been wining. There IS a reason he has been crashing. Its BECAUSE he has been ....... crashing, HE has been crashing. Rider errors that just as easily could have been crashes in 2013 at Jerez, Catalunya, Mugello, Aragon, Siverstone, Philip Island, the same type of near misses now crashes in 2015. Are u of the opinion that the rider error out braking himself at Catalunya is an example of his skill because he managed to miss Lorenzo? Again, as I asked Mike, how can a singular event caused by a loss of rider control be simultaneously an example of great skill?

#22 · Jun 16, 2015

Loving the lively debates this thread is bringing, PS is back

mylexicon · Jun 16, 2015

I don't see any fault in blaming HRC to an extent. The tires are what they are. The manufacturers and crews either make the necessary adjustments or they don't. I don't believe HRC screwed the bike up, but I also don't think the bike has made much progress between seasons. They seem to be treading water.

I do think Krop should focus on the psychological aspects. Back in the day we used to talk about the 60-day rule. If you could keep your opponent off the top step for 60 days, you could break him.

Catalunya was 63 days after Marquez won at COTA, and the move he made on Lorenzo was the most desperate dive bomb maneuver we've seen from Marquez since Moto2. He's starting to break. He speaks in absolutes. He blames Stoner for his problems. He's a complete basket case, atm.

Netherlands will be 60 days for Rossi. We should start paying attention to him as well. Even the Doctor is not immune to letting his ambition outweigh his talent

AntG · Jun 16, 2015

mylexicon said:
I don't see any fault in blaming HRC to an extent. The tires are what they are. The manufacturers and crews either make the necessary adjustments or they don't. I don't believe HRC screwed the bike up, but I also don't think the bike has made much progress between seasons. They seem to be treading water.

I do think Krop should focus on the psychological aspects. Back in the day we used to talk about the 60-day rule. If you could keep your opponent off the top step for 60 days, you could break him.

Catalunya was 63 days after Marquez won at COTA, and the move he made on Lorenzo was the most desperate dive bomb maneuver we've seen from Marquez since Moto2. He's starting to break. He speaks in absolutes. He blames Stoner for his problems. He's a complete basket case, atm.

Netherlands will be 60 days for Rossi. We should start paying attention to him as well. Even the Doctor is not immune to letting his ambition outweigh his talent

Does he? What's he said? I missed that.

Mick D · Jun 16, 2015

AntG said:
Does he? What's he said? I missed that.

That Casey can't develop a bike and is a ...... tester.

AntG · Jun 16, 2015

As somebody once told me - When you blame others for your problems you give up your power to change.

Mick D · Jun 16, 2015

Jumkie said:
You may need to revisit 2013, Lorenzo and Pedrosa were on Marc's ... until untimely clavicle injury. Lorenzo when healthy could hardly be beat. Revisit Valencia 2013, watch how Lorenzo astonishingly plays with the field at will. Revisit COTA, your silver bullet, Pedrosa was on Marc's ... all race, and if Pedro had a bit more bite may have won. Jerez, Pedrosa and Lorenzo were on Marc's ... until Marc punted Lorenzo (did we forget about that?). Aragon, Marc literally went up Pedrosa's ... (which means he was behind ). Perhaps you define "mercilessly dominant" similar to "evolution" in other words nothing to do with the actual meaning of the words.

You may need to remember 2013 was MM's rookie year and no one expected him to be able to run with the big dogs for the entire season, much less win the thang! You're making' a big deal about Jorge and Dani threatening when they should have been ...-kicking... revisionist!

JPSLotus · Jun 16, 2015

So more on topic, what are the odds Cal finishes the race in Assen?

I feel like he is overdue for a high side crash.

Jumkie · Jun 16, 2015

Mick D said:
You may need to remember 2013 was MM's rookie year and no one expected him to be able to run with the big dogs for the entire season, much less win the thang! You're making' a big deal about Jorge and Dani threatening when they should have been ...-kicking... revisionist!

I was responding to Kesh claiming Marc "dominated both seasons", which I refuted. I made no claim or qualification otherwise, so kindly stick your revision up your ... and spend more time responding to the specific point being debated instead of some revision of the discussion.

Keshav · Jun 16, 2015

Jumkie said:
Kesh, please dont gloss over the fact that no deficiency in the RCV was noted by the pundits until Lorenzo started winning. That was Lotus' point. In other words this 'the decline of RCV' narrative was created from thin air, it didn't exist until it was necessary to rationalize the infallibility of Marquez. No .... some tracks are suited, this is the silver bullet to conclude the RCV is suddenly a piece of .... when in the unfathomable event that Marquez doesn't win? No not that his rivals are trying to win, but Marquez 's bike must be declared crap. Frankly your passive support of this narrative is laughable. You surmised Marc has "evolved" to be more mature rider, however your assessment has been sandwiched by two crashes! A torpedo at Argentina and a torpedo (which missed by stupid luck) at Catalunya. So basically if he is not crashing at the exact moment then your evolution period is defined by: at this very moment.

Marquez did NOT "mercilessly dominate" the last two seasons. You may need to revisit 2013, Lorenzo and Pedrosa were on Marc's ... until untimely clavicle injury. Lorenzo when healthy could hardly be beat. Revisit Valencia 2013, watch how Lorenzo astonishingly plays with the field at will. Revisit COTA, your silver bullet, Pedrosa was on Marc's ... all race, and if Pedro had a bit more bite may have won. Jerez, Pedrosa and Lorenzo were on Marc's ... until Marc punted Lorenzo (did we forget about that?). Aragon, Marc literally went up Pedrosa's ... (which means he was behind ). Perhaps you define "mercilessly dominant" similar to "evolution" in other words nothing to do with the actual meaning of the words.

"There is no logical reason why" he is crashing or being beat? Really Kesh? C'mon man, haven't you been reading the non-Kropo explanations? Newsflash, we HAVE been presenting a reason. You're not listening. I guess you prefer to defer to the prevailing "expert" opinion. These same hacks that got it spectacularly WRONG regarding the 07 'Ducati rides itself' narrative, the 07-2010 'Stoner sucks if Rossi was on a Ducati he would win' narative, the 2011 'Its not Rossi ' s fault' narrative. But you're gonna buy the new 2015 'The RCV is ....' narrative? It's not a mystery. There IS a reason Marc has not been wining. There IS a reason he has been crashing. Its BECAUSE he has been ....... crashing, HE has been crashing. Rider errors that just as easily could have been crashes in 2013 at Jerez, Catalunya, Mugello, Aragon, Siverstone, Philip Island, the same type of near misses now crashes in 2015. Are u of the opinion that the rider error out braking himself at Catalunya is an example of his skill because he managed to miss Lorenzo? Again, as I asked Mike, how can a singular event caused by a loss of rider control be simultaneously an example of great skill?

I don't have to enumerate how many poles he grabbed and how many wins and how many records he broke over two seasons to validate the use of dominate.

What nobody has addressed is, Why, if the Honda is perfectly good, is MM suddenly unable to ride it well? Stoner crashed numerous times and still managed to do well. Those who were inclined to hate him said he was losing it and those who were reasonably objective and waited for him to work out the problems that were causing the crashes. I don't like MM any better than the next guy but I'm willing to be objective and stand aside while others gather up their torches and pitchforks. Sometimes this place seems to be fueled by schadenfreude.

Mick D · Jun 16, 2015

Jumkie said:
I was responding to Kesh claiming Marc "dominated both seasons", which I refuted. I made no claim or qualification otherwise, so kindly stick your revision up your ... and spend more time responding to the specific point being debated instead of some revision of the discussion.

The specific point is you are using straw men to support your position and all the bluster you produce does not obfuscate that fact!

Keshav · Jun 16, 2015

Mick D said:
The specific point is you are using straw men to support your position and all the bluster you produce does not obfuscate that fact!

......' A. It's what Jum does. The King Of Pettifogging.

Cal Cuntslow

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