2025 Silly Season

Sennas_Caress said:

You're right, of course. I was exaggerating about his teammates. A bit.

Reading his book, I got the notion that he and his family did too much on their own. No wonder he broke down.

If someone could have saved him, from himself, he would have made sure neither Rossi, nor Marquez, would have had the amount of titles they're sitting with.

Click to expand...

The pressure on him was a big thing for sure. I believe his family moved to the UK (left his sister in Aus) and it was a 'If you don't make it, we're destitute' scenario.

I can't remember where I read it, but I recall someone talking about when he used to race at Three Sisters circuit (A kart track I used to race at) in the UK, his family were staying with someone and what struck them was he would go through the cereal boxes to see which would expire first and eat that, because he didn't want (couldn't afford) to waste a thing.

AnnoyingTwit said:

In 2007 when Stoner won the championship on the Ducati, Loris Capirossi scored four podiums, including one win. He did have 4 DNFs, while Stoner had one. But, there were riders with worse finishing records.

In 2008, Stoner challenged for the championship while Marco Melandri didn't score a single podium. However, Melandri did finish all races except two, the same number of races that Stoner finished. However, Melandri's results are quite bad, and there could be some crashes and remounts in there.

In 2009, Nicky Hayden finished all races except two, but only scored one podium while Casey Stoner had multiple wins from fewer starts.

In 2010, Nicky Hayden only scored one podium, and had three DNFs. But, overall was more consistent with a number of 4th place finishes.

In 2011 Stoner was gone to Honda, and Rossi and Hayden had one podium each - both 3rd places. Three DNFs for Rossi, and two for Hayden. Points-wise, nearly the same.

Stoner clearly had something special skill-wise that enabled him to ride those Ducatis better than other riders. But, I'm not sure it's fair to say that Stoner's team-mates could barely finish races. Maybe that might apply to Melandri, but I can't remember the reasons for his bad results.

Click to expand...

What Rossi and JB said was that Stoner’s telemetry showed he had to nearly crash the bike to get it through each corner. That was the 2010 bike which was during the carbon fibre experiment and particularly diabolical. Nicky Hayden on getting on whichever version he first tried (the 2008 bike I believe) said that whatever Ducati were paying Casey it wasn’t enough, and even in regard to the 2007 title Presiozi the designer of the 2007 bike later said “that was Casey”. Melandri’s problem was not crashing, but getting within 2 seconds of Stoner’s lap times. Despite him having won several races which is why Ducati hired him Ducati sent him to a shrink rather than contemplating that there might be any problem with their bike. Capirossi indeed made the podium several times including a win in the race in which Stoner clinched the title, and Barrros also had a podium on a satellite Ducati, although this was after he made a tyre choice at odds with the rest of the field which proved to be the correct choice.

In the 990 formula Ducati were competitive most years with some mis-steps.

I said at the time Stoner may well not have won the 2007 title had both he and Rossi been riding factory Yamahas, and that it was impossible for Rossi to beat Stoner in 2007 with Stoner riding the GP07 as he did. Riding the 2007 Ducati as Stoner did was rather the trick though, and all evidence suggests he was unique in being able to do so, although you never know, maybe someone like John Hopkins could have. I very much doubt Rossi could have though.

I am in agreement with Lex that riding on the precipice as Casey’s riding style involved wasn’t sustainable for high multiple title wins, the extreme focus required took a toll on him, and made him liable to injury which did eventually befall him in his last season. Imo he had the equipment to win the title for 3 years only, but really should have won the 2012 title. The nascent Valeban did add to the difficulty for him though, which is why I am no Rossi fan.

#22 said:

Interesting, I'm not sure on the validity of this, but I read this in the comments section of motorsport.com

Click to expand...

Not to be a bother, but most of that sounds like nonsense to me. VR46 as a team had existed many years prior to their arrival in MotoGP, in Moto3 and then Moto2; at which time Rossi had confirmed that he had put in his own money. They basically bought into the Avintia team and took over their slots; moving more or less their Moto3 and Moto2 staff into MotoGP, plus a few members of Rossi’s crew like Flamigni and Muñoz.

I’m also not convinced that Carmelo has beef with Rossi for not showing up at every race. Carmelo knows as well as we do that Rossi has a full time car racing gig and is either racing or testing on most MotoGP weekends. He does show up for the important races such as the Italian ones.

There maybe a grain of truth to Carmelo not being happy that VR46 didn’t go with Yamaha; but as I have mentioned before, both Rossi and Uccio have said in separate interviews that it was Uccio and Nieto’s call as the people responsible for the sponsor relationships.

Lastly, Carmelo can’t unilaterally take away grid slots and give to someone else. Team sponsors will have his head on a stake; and this is exactly the kind of thing IRTA is around to prevent. When grid slots were taken off crypto shady RNF, it was with the support of IRTA and there was due cause; ie bills not being paid for more than a year. VR46 has given no such cause and Carmelo himself has said in interviews that he will not legislate teams into signing up with certain manufacturers; because that would be anti competitive.

michaelm said:

I am in agreement with Lex that riding on the precipice as Casey’s riding style involved wasn’t sustainable for high multiple title wins, the extreme focus required took a toll on him, and made him liable to injury which did eventually befall him in his last season. Imo he had the equipment to win the title for 3 years only, but really should have won the 2012 title. The nascent Valeban did add to the difficulty for him though, which is why I am no Rossi fan.

Click to expand...

Me too. He was too intense to have a prolonged career. As someone once said. "If he could turn up at the track on Friday, practice and race on Sunday then go home, he'd have had a much longer career".
Alas, modern professional sports are far from that.

That particularly nasty crash at Indy ended hopes of him retiring a a triple champion.

synn said:

Not to be a bother, but most of that sounds like nonsense to me.

Click to expand...

Not a bother at all! This is a discussion forum after all.

For the record, I'm skeptical of the comment too, especially as the source is not a reliable one.

#22 said:

Not a bother at all! This is a discussion forum after all.

For the record, I'm skeptical of the comment too, especially as the source is not a reliable one.

Click to expand...

In my opinion, the way to look at VR46 is more like Red Bull Racing/ the Late Dieter Mateschitz and less like Ago or KR Sr. Running the Yamaha team.

Yes it’s his money and pride at stake; but he’s not around to run the team on a daily basis and manage its affairs. At least not yet.

That said, I have been vocal about my dissatisfaction about the dual loyalties of VR the person and VR46 the team. I don’t think it’s sustainable over the long term.

Definitely agree with you on that. I have also posted countless times on here that the fact the brand ambassador for a company won't use said company's product, even when the team would be paid to do so is not lost on me.

synn said:

Not to be a bother, but most of that sounds like nonsense to me. VR46 as a team had existed many years prior to their arrival in MotoGP, in Moto3 and then Moto2; at which time Rossi had confirmed that he had put in his own money. They basically bought into the Avintia team and took over their slots; moving more or less their Moto3 and Moto2 staff into MotoGP, plus a few members of Rossi’s crew like Flamigni and Muñoz.

I’m also not convinced that Carmelo has beef with Rossi for not showing up at every race. Carmelo knows as well as we do that Rossi has a full time car racing gig and is either racing or testing on most MotoGP weekends. He does show up for the important races such as the Italian ones.

There maybe a grain of truth to Carmelo not being happy that VR46 didn’t go with Yamaha; but as I have mentioned before, both Rossi and Uccio have said in separate interviews that it was Uccio and Nieto’s call as the people responsible for the sponsor relationships.

Lastly, Carmelo can’t unilaterally take away grid slots and give to someone else. Team sponsors will have his head on a stake; and this is exactly the kind of thing IRTA is around to prevent. When grid slots were taken off crypto shady RNF, it was with the support of IRTA and there was due cause; ie bills not being paid for more than a year. VR46 has given no such cause and Carmelo himself has said in interviews that he will not legislate teams into signing up with certain manufacturers; because that would be anti competitive.

Click to expand...

I would like to add as well, as much as I am not a Rossi fan, if he let others pour money into his team/academy and instead of funding it himself, that is just smart business. If the article is true, Dorna wanted VR46 brand name recognition and rightfully (IMO) had to pay for it. Yes, the series gave Rossi the chance to earn millions of dollars, but he in turn earned them millions of dollars at the time.

Related to the discussions on Stoner and Ducati, I revised this MotoMatters article from 2011. The Trouble With The Ducati Desmosedici: An Exhaustive Analysis | MotoMatters.com | Kropotkin Thinks

It's interesting to read it in context. There are suggestions in the article that Ducati should compromise on having a 90-degree V4 angle, and that there is a risk that Ducati will withdraw from MotoGP to focus on WSBK with twins. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20, but Ducati clearly persevered with MotoGP. The bike not only became competitive with a 90-degree V4 in MotoGP, but came to dominate. And, clearly Ducati gained knowledge on twin-spar aluminum frames to beat Honda and Yamaha in their own playground. And, Ducati now sell V4s and use them in WSBK.

I'm not critising the article because making predictions is always uncertain, but I'm musing on how things worked out in hindsight.

p4p1 said:

I would like to add as well, as much as I am not a Rossi fan, if he let others pour money into his team/academy and instead of funding it himself, that is just smart business. If the article is true, Dorna wanted VR46 brand name recognition and rightfully (IMO) had to pay for it. Yes, the series gave Rossi the chance to earn millions of dollars, but he in turn earned them millions of dollars at the time.

Click to expand...

I don’t see how the VR46 academy can be criticised at all, it has been notably successful, with a generation of Italian riders not previously in evidence, and a protege on the verge of a 3rd premier class title, historically pretty much the mark of greatness.

Don’t have much trouble with the VR46 GP racing team either, they have also done well and appear to be well run and if Valentino’s current focus is on sportscar racing that is his choice to which he is entitled.

I do have a problem with continued petulance and whining about MM and the 2015 title, and recruiting his protégés to a lost (and moreover delusional imo) cause.

AnnoyingTwit said:

The bike not only became competitive with a 90-degree V4 in MotoGP, but came to dominate. And, clearly Ducati gained knowledge on twin-spar aluminum frames to beat Honda and Yamaha in their own playground.

Click to expand...

To be fair, the Desmocedici has the exact same mechanical problems it always had. They just solved/ minimized them aerodynamically.

You can see how the Honda has been struggling mechanically since they tilted the engine rearward; because they don’t yet have the aerodynamic know how to fix the issues.

The twin-spar, as far as I know early examples were outsourced (Possibly to Suter) as Ducati had no idea how to build them , but that’s probably no longer the case.

You can see the same happen in reverse now; with KTM and Yamaha outsourcing aerodynamics to Red Bull Racing and Dallara respectively (Aprilia as far as I know does it in house as Romano Albessiano has an aerospace background).

Yes, interesting. It'll be interesting to see what happens with thge new regulations in a couple of years time. Though, my prediction (for what it is worth) is that Ducati is now a team technically strong enough to adapt to those at least as fast as their competitiors.

Going back into the past, in 2019 KTM said that they would never win if they ditched steel trellis frames like Ducati. And, they say that they want to have bikes similar to those they sell. https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ktm-steel-chassis-ducati-pierer/4388101/ With the Ducati Panigale V4 topping Ducati's range, it could be said that Ducati's road bikes are now closer to MotoGP than KTM's are.

EDIT: Interesting to see this article suggesting that Aprilia's aerodynamics might (just might) make it onto a road bike. Aprilia: Ground Effect Road Bike on the Way? – British Motorcyclists Federation

Interesting; I did know previously that Rossi considers Acosta in high regard and VR46 and Acosta had some contact previously; but I didn’t know that it didn’t work out due to the sponsors (Most likely Mooney had an “Only Italians” rule).

AnnoyingTwit said:

EDIT: Interesting to see this article suggesting that Aprilia's aerodynamics might (just might) make it onto a road bike. Aprilia: Ground Effect Road Bike on the Way? – British Motorcyclists Federation

Click to expand...

This is interesting, but most likely useless on the road. Ground effects only work when the surface is very close to the ground- hence the name; and the average street rider isn’t going to get anywhere near the lean angle to make that happen.

michaelm said:

I do have a problem with continued petulance and whining about MM and the 2015 title, and recruiting his protégés to a lost (and moreover delusional imo) cause.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it does get old.

synn said:

To be fair, the Desmocedici has the exact same mechanical problems it always had. They just solved/ minimized them aerodynamically.

Click to expand...

And electronically imo.

synn said:

This is interesting, but most likely useless on the road. Ground effects only work when the surface is very close to the ground- hence the name; and the average street rider isn’t going to get anywhere near the lean angle to make that happen.

Click to expand...

Firs thing I thought too. Useless on the road if you are riding to the speed limit.

synn said:

This is interesting, but most likely useless on the road. Ground effects only work when the surface is very close to the ground- hence the name; and the average street rider isn’t going to get anywhere near the lean angle to make that happen.

Click to expand...

But, maybe useful if you're going to use it in a superbike primarily intended for WSBK (etc.) racing after the minimum number have been sold.

synn said:

This is interesting, but most likely useless on the road. Ground effects only work when the surface is very close to the ground- hence the name; and the average street rider isn’t going to get anywhere near the lean angle to make that happen.

Click to expand...

Or you aim for the niche market of closed circuit bikes.

There most likely be plenty of potential buyers who would love to be seen as one of those, in the same vain as most drivers of supercars are merely rich and not Hamilton or Verstappen.

synn said:

MotoGP, Acosta: "Close to signing with VR46, but not possible due to sponsor."

MotoGP: "After the first test with the MotoGP, Rossi gave me some important advice. It's incredible the way he approaches young people. What does KTM lack to beat Ducati? Consistency and better qualifications."

m.gpone.com

Interesting; I did know previously that Rossi considers Acosta in high regard and VR46 and Acosta had some contact previously; but I didn’t know that it didn’t work out due to the sponsors (Most likely Mooney had an “Only Italians” rule).

Click to expand...

And that article really hits home why Rossi, even with all his faults and conflicts, is so well regarded.

He is probably the only Alien who have good people's skills. No wonder he is the only one of them who set up his own team.

I can't see Marquez trying to compete with VR46 after he hangs up his leathers.

No one can deny that Rossi has given a lot back to the sport in terms of the academy and also the VR46 team. You're right, in that he is unique amongst the aliens with regards to having an outgoing personality. He also seems to also be excellent in picking talent for the most part, a lot like Puig back in the day.

The problem is, it is precisely because of that persona, that he has marks on his legacy.

#22 said:

No one can deny that Rossi has given a lot back to the sport in terms of the academy and also the VR46 team. You're right, in that he is unique amongst the aliens with regards to having an outgoing personality. He also seems to also be excellent in picking talent for the most part, a lot like Puig back in the day.

The problem is, it is precisely because of that persona, that he has marks on his legacy.

Click to expand...

Not denying that, but there are no saints in this sport; the ones that have a personality usually come with baggage as well.