2025 Silly Season

synn said:

From what I remember, they told him he always had a place at Yamaha for as long as he wants, but they had to move in on Quartararo now or lose him, and he agreed.

Now Razalan Razali was not happy about it, but that is a different story.

Also, to address an earlier post, I don’t think anything about Rossi’s personality is manufactured. If you go back to mid 90s videos, he had his goofy celebrations (Robin Hood, Couch surfing etc) and he had his explosive temper as well when he literally punched Biaggi backstage over a disagreement. He was also an interviewer’s favorite, even when he spoke like 5 English words. All of this before the advent of social media and any sort of mainstream attention on the sport. I consider it very much like the late great Sheene, referenced earlier.

Now his business savvy and polish for the camera, that was built over time. One could say manufactured, albeit from the raw materials that is his authentic persona.

But I digress from the topic at hand.

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I agree about his personality, it was the same without the 7/9 titles when he started at age 17 or whatever, thought of as very young back then bit more or less the norm now, and he always had the ability to be witty in English even when he had very few words. In retrospect the Claudia Schiffer doll had perhaps a touch of a nasty edge, so perhaps that was there from the start as well.

Pretty good interview of Crutchlow, I agree with his assessment of almost all the riders.

Keshav said:

Not to get too deep into the weeds, but from reading Stoner's bio, one gets a picture of a very very solitary kid, whose obsessive practicing and anxiety over the phenomenal amount of sacrifice on the part of his parents really fueled his competitive nature, would just naturally, on some level, make him subconsciously angry and resentful at the pressure laid on him to repay his family for all their years of forgoing domestic stability and so many basic comforts and ease of life so that he could fulfill his dream. No kid that young wants to be responsible for his parent's well-being, financial or otherwise. Kids want to feel parents are there to protect them and have it all under control. Ozzies have that cultural can-do, no worries DNA - but underneath it all, they're just human beings like everywhere else. Stoner's life on the road from such a young age, never really settled down in any one place for very long, can't have given him much in the way of social skills, and even the most "normal" well-adjusted person can easily get bent out-of-shape by constant media attention and being regularly tasked by a PR machine with shilling as a brand-representitive under bright lights for some giant corporate entity. Stoner was a low-key Gary Cooper type, the exact opposite of ultra-narcissist, approval junkie Rossi, who only felt fully alive when there was a camera and mic in his face.

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It's also possible, imo, that because Casey's parents let the world revolve around their son that Casey himself may possess an inflated sense of self-importance. Rossi is the charismatic megalomaniac. Casey could be the brooding, contemptuous super-villain haha.

It's also possible that he remained humble and grounded during his younger years, and the drama of 2008-2010 unfolded, which could have appeared to Casey as a reorganization of MotoGP because the wrong guy was winning, has made him a curmudgeon. Or maybe Casey has been made bitter and hard by years of chronic fatigue syndrome.

Though Casey's personality is not media-friendly, his approach to the business is a valid counterpoint that people should respect. Vale will do just about anything for the money and fame it seems. When people throw piles of money at Casey, he knows they want his soul. We cannot have a sport (or world) in which the effortlessly successful and famous are not balanced by the perpetually skeptical and self-guarded.

I’ll summarize about 15 years worth of debate into 5 paragraphs :

#27: Probably the best natural talent on the motorcycle, PR disaster off it, could probably make any machine bend to his will and with a matching psychological temperament, should have won a lot more championships. Can be a qunt to some.

#46: probably not the most physically talented as his peers, but made up for it with sheer will and racecraft. Astounding to notch up a race win in his 16th year in the premiere class- you can’t teach that at school. PR bonanza, giving back to the sport than most. Can be a qunt to more than a few.

#99: Proof that consistently beating your child can turn him into a world beater. Better than most think he is but not as good as he thinks he is. Deserved more championships than he has. Currently smashing local all you can eat buffets on most weekends. Can be a qunt to almost everyone alive.

#26: 5 KG and 5 Inches more and the world would see him very differently today. Definitely deserved at least 1 premiere class championship. Probably the most sensitive alien of the lot in terms of setup and feedback. Can be a qunt to a small group of people.

#93: Physically gifted like #27, cerebrally gifted like #46. A less gifted rider would have received a lot less leeway during the Murderdeath phase in the junior classes. A benchmark setter in terms of dominance in the premiere class. Possibly could have beaten Ago and Angel Nieto’s title records if it wasn’t for 2020. Current career renaissance is astounding. Can be a qunt to some.

michaelm said:

and he always had the ability to be witty in English

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I remember Rossi being asked about the leg dangling when it came to be somewhat ubiquitous.



“So Valentino, can you tell us why you dangle your leg when braking?”



“I don’t know so much why I do it but I know why everyone else does.” (or words to that effect)

synn said:

#26: 5 KG and 5 Inches more and the world would see him very differently today. Definitely deserved at least 1 premiere class championship. Probably the most sensitive alien of the lot in terms of setup and feedback. Can be a qunt to a small group of people.

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Pedrosa was penalized by being jockey sized, when Dorna should have realized, there are benefits to both sizes of rider...but no, must push Ducati ahead.

The small guy gets the advantage in starts and tire wear, the big guy guy gets muscle power in corners and faster heat in tires, but Dorna stick their fat noses in the races, ruining the spectacle imo...

synn said:

I’ll summarize about 15 years worth of debate into 5 paragraphs :

#27: Probably the best natural talent on the motorcycle, PR disaster off it, could probably make any machine bend to his will and with a matching psychological temperament, should have won a lot more championships. Can be a qunt to some.

#46: probably not the most physically talented as his peers, but made up for it with sheer will and racecraft. Astounding to notch up a race win in his 16th year in the premiere class- you can’t teach that at school. PR bonanza, giving back to the sport than most. Can be a qunt to more than a few.

#99: Proof that consistently beating your child can turn him into a world beater. Better than most think he is but not as good as he thinks he is. Deserved more championships than he has. Currently smashing local all you can eat buffets on most weekends. Can be a qunt to almost everyone alive.

#26: 5 KG and 5 Inches more and the world would see him very differently today. Definitely deserved at least 1 premiere class championship. Probably the most sensitive alien of the lot in terms of setup and feedback. Can be a qunt to a small group of people.

#93: Physically gifted like #27, cerebrally gifted like #46. A less gifted rider would have received a lot less leeway during the Murderdeath phase in the junior classes. A benchmark setter in terms of dominance in the premiere class. Possibly could have beaten Ago and Angel Nieto’s title records if it wasn’t for 2020. Current career renaissance is astounding. Can be a qunt to some.

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I'll add my thoughts...

Casey's greatest weakness was that burning passion to win. If he had that, I honestly believe he might have still been racing because he was that good that I don't think age would have mattered.

Rossi I feel the same about with regards to his physical ability. Well I would say he was above his peers in the earlier part of his career, but not in the mid to latter part. He rode with his brain for the most part and I think that had a lot to do with longevity. But then there were rides like Donington 2005...so I don't know really. Even though I was not a fan of the rider much, I do acknowledge what he has done for the sport in terms of giving back has been astounding. Not sure of anyone that has done as much as he has on this front in the short time he's been doing it.

Lorenzo...in his prime was one of the fastest riders I've ever seen. But he also believed in his own hype far too often as you point out. Probably should have won the 2013 title IMO. I think that was the one he let get away. It's a shame he let himself turn into a blimp in retirement.

Marquez...still uncertain where he is going to fall on the list of top riders when all is said and done. One of the smartest riders I've ever seen with the talent to actually back it up across not just GP, but all motorsport. I do wonder what would have happened if 2020 never occurs with regards to his title list. Probably would have been in double digits by now. Like Valentino, insanely good at playing the political side of GP. How he managed to walk out of a contract with HRC, goes to a satellite and less than 9 rounds into the new season managed to score the most coveted seat in GP is beyond me.

Simon Patterson with a good article looking at why Martin's title bid is likely over.

mylexicon said:

It's also possible, imo, that because Casey's parents let the world revolve around their son that Casey himself may possess an inflated sense of self-importance. Rossi is the charismatic megalomaniac. Casey could be the brooding, contemptuous super-villain haha.

It's also possible that he remained humble and grounded during his younger years, and the drama of 2008-2010 unfolded, which could have appeared to Casey as a reorganization of MotoGP because the wrong guy was winning, has made him a curmudgeon. Or maybe Casey has been made bitter and hard by years of chronic fatigue syndrome.

Though Casey's personality is not media-friendly, his approach to the business is a valid counterpoint that people should respect. Vale will do just about anything for the money and fame it seems. When people throw piles of money at Casey, he knows they want his soul. We cannot have a sport (or world) in which the effortlessly successful and famous are not balanced by the perpetually skeptical and self-guarded.

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Re: Contemptuous Super Villain

mylexicon said:

It's also possible, imo, that because Casey's parents let the world revolve around their son that Casey himself may possess an inflated sense of self-importance. Rossi is the charismatic megalomaniac. Casey could be the brooding, contemptuous super-villain haha.

It's also possible that he remained humble and grounded during his younger years, and the drama of 2008-2010 unfolded, which could have appeared to Casey as a reorganization of MotoGP because the wrong guy was winning, has made him a curmudgeon. Or maybe Casey has been made bitter and hard by years of chronic fatigue syndrome.

Though Casey's personality is not media-friendly, his approach to the business is a valid counterpoint that people should respect. Vale will do just about anything for the money and fame it seems. When people throw piles of money at Casey, he knows they want his soul. We cannot have a sport (or world) in which the effortlessly successful and famous are not balanced by the perpetually skeptical and self-guarded.

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Re: Contemptuous Super Villain

I think over the years without exactly spelling it out, there's been a sort of hmmm . . . silent consensus that Stoner would almost have to possess a great deal of animus and resentment toward A. Ducati for the way they under-appreciated him. B. Dorna for the perception of their behind the scenes efforts to make Bridgestone change the tire construction mid-season to prop up their favorite "alien" when it became apparent that everyone could see the emperor had no clothes. And C. A wide swath of fandom who mindlessly booed him despite his incredible talent - because if anyone every labored under the illusion that racing was some kind of meritocracy, it was Stoner. Talk about yer rude awakening.

synn said:

Also, both are rich enough to buy their own planets, and another planet for the first planet to colonize.

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Pretty sure Tiger could buy Rossi a few times over. He is the second richest athlete of all time after Jordan. I'm not 100% sure where Rossi sits on the list but I don't believe he is closing in on billionaire status. He is still a very wealthy man though, I wish I could be worth 10% of what he is.

Faz said:

Neither of them knew when to bow out gracefully?

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Without highlighting key differences between the sports, in some sports, like gold, I don't think there is a need to bow out gracefully. Just play until you don't want to anymore.
The difference being there is only so many good bikes on the grid and they don't need to be earnt through current results. So it is robbing someone more deserving of a good seat to stick around once your time is up.

michaelm said:

I agree about his personality, it was the same without the 7/9 titles when he started at age 17 or whatever, thought of as very young back then bit more or less the norm now, and he always had the ability to be witty in English even when he had very few words. In retrospect the Claudia Schiffer doll had perhaps a touch of a nasty edge, so perhaps that was there from the start as well.

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Both were there from the start IMO but personality changes over time and when you become bigger than the sport and are surrounded by yes men that (from the outside looking in) don't always give you the correct view, it can't have anything but a negative impact on your personality.

synn said:

#99: Proof that consistently beating your child can turn him into a world beater. Better than most think he is but not as good as he thinks he is. Deserved more championships than he has. Currently smashing local all you can eat buffets on most weekends. Can be a qunt to almost everyone alive.

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This made me laugh way more than it should have.

p4p1 said:

Both were there from the start IMO but personality changes over time and when you become bigger than the sport and are surrounded by yes men that (from the outside looking in) don't always give you the correct view, it can't have anything but a negative impact on your personality.

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Yes the whole MM tanking the 2015 PI race to help Lorenzo thing very definitely had its source, whom I have to admit grudgingly along with Gaz seems to be making a fair fist of running the VR46 race team.

mylexicon said:

It's also possible, imo, that because Casey's parents let the world revolve around their son that Casey himself may possess an inflated sense of self-importance. Rossi is the charismatic megalomaniac. Casey could be the brooding, contemptuous super-villain haha.

It's also possible that he remained humble and grounded during his younger years, and the drama of 2008-2010 unfolded, which could have appeared to Casey as a reorganization of MotoGP because the wrong guy was winning, has made him a curmudgeon. Or maybe Casey has been made bitter and hard by years of chronic fatigue syndrome.

Though Casey's personality is not media-friendly, his approach to the business is a valid counterpoint that people should respect. Vale will do just about anything for the money and fame it seems. When people throw piles of money at Casey, he knows they want his soul. We cannot have a sport (or world) in which the effortlessly successful and famous are not balanced by the perpetually skeptical and self-guarded.

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As it is said just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean everyone isn’t after you.

I think his gripes were mostly with the Valeban, and with Dorna whom he thought quite likely correctly were out to nobble/handicap him. I always agreed with your view of the tyre wars way back when but don’t recall Casey ever complaining about tyres when he was with Ducati, and he was hardly loathe to complain. He did make comment about both the late weight change and late tyre change for the 2012 Honda on which he had been streeting the field in pre-season testing and him specifically asking why winning 5 titles in a row on a Honda was OK for Mick Doohan while he had to be stopped after one title, hence it looking to him that him winning, whether as a rank outsider or riding for the establishment marque, was unacceptable in general. I also think from reading stuff in the Australian press as well as his biography that he considered he had proven what he wanted/needed to prove by winning the second title, and that continuing to prove the Valeban etc wrong was not a sufficient motive for him to keep going. He was also upset prior to Honda with Ducati whom he considered family for not supporting him when he had his health issues.

I also agreed with your view back in the Ducati days that after a race where he had balanced on a precipice/knife’s edge for a whole race he had a let down from all the adrenaline post race and was prone to not saying anything particularly sensible. When he is interviewed these days nearly 20 years on he still does the pressure of thought thing though, so perhaps that’s just him, and in general he was probably simply not suited personality wise to the limelight.

As for his general character who knows ?, but Shuehi Nakamoto spoke highly of his character, and Dovi said he was a different person as a test rider for Ducati than when he was his totally driven team-mate at Honda in 2011. There are people even in Australian bike racing circles who never liked him though, and I recall one Australian poster on here in particular back in his very early days. I haven’t seen or heard anything anywhere from him critical of his parents though, and I don’t think there was any path for him other than the one he and they took, bike racing being quite a minority sport in Australia. I am sure his family didn’t mind the fortune that came his way eventually, but they also had this kid with obviously ridiculous talent/natural aptitude who was beating older riders before his teenage years, rather than it being a similar deal to the father of Tiger Woods or the Williams sisters, or the parents of several other tennis prodigies.

michaelm said:

Yes the whole MM tanking the 2015 PI race to help Lorenzo thing very definitely had its source, whom I have to admit grudgingly along with Gaz seems to be making a fair fist of running the VR46 race team.

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I was meaning to refer to Uccio.

JPSLotus said:

Ducati can ensure Martin's 2024 MotoGP title bid is over now

On paper Jorge Martin is still very much in the 2024 MotoGP fight. In reality, there are now so many factors against him that his Sachsenring crash could've blown it all

www.the-race.com

Simon Patterson with a good article looking at why Martin's title bid is likely over.

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I did read it and it won’t surprise me if that’s how things pan out; but it would be incredibly unprofessional on Ducati’s side if they meddle with a straight shootout between Bagnaia and Martin.

p4p1 said:

Without highlighting key differences between the sports, in some sports, like gold, I don't think there is a need to bow out gracefully. Just play until you don't want to anymore.
The difference being there is only so many good bikes on the grid and they don't need to be earnt through current results. So it is robbing someone more deserving of a good seat to stick around once your time is up.

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The same applied to snooker. People who are past their prime can continue competing in the early rounds of a tournament, and if they don't make it to the last N (16?), then they're hardly noticed. But, suddenly they might have a run of form (such as Steve Davis did) and then appear in the final stages. Nobody has been denied any opportunity.

There are only so many good bikes on the grid. But, there are many reasons why a team might choose a rider - only one of which (albeit an important one) is that they are the fastest available rider. I feel it's up to teams to decide. Or, in this case, perhaps the manufacturer.

I don't see any problem with manufacturers from a particular country providing extra opportunities to local (to them) riders either.

AnnoyingTwit said:

The same applied to snooker. People who are past their prime can continue competing in the early rounds of a tournament, and if they don't make it to the last N (16?), then they're hardly noticed. But, suddenly they might have a run of form (such as Steve Davis did) and then appear in the final stages. Nobody has been denied any opportunity.

There are only so many good bikes on the grid. But, there are many reasons why a team might choose a rider - only one of which (albeit an important one) is that they are the fastest available rider. I feel it's up to teams to decide. Or, in this case, perhaps the manufacturer.

I don't see any problem with manufacturers from a particular country providing extra opportunities to local (to them) riders either.

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People still play snooker? I thought that was DONE, a long time ago. It’s the sort of thing I would expect to find in some cos-play/Brit-fetish members-only place where they wear monocles and velvet smoking jackets in some sub-basement club in a bad neighborhood in Tokyo.