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synn said:
In hindsight, Ducati homologating their factory bikes as “Open class” that I mentioned previously, was the pivotal moment in the sport.

It was a Gigi decision, no doubt inspired by F1 designers who read the rulebook a thousand times and work their way around it. It caught the Japanese off guard. Sure, it was legal, but it’s not how they operated. Honor was the norm (recollect how the Japanese factories adhered to the minimum tyre pressure law, even when they knew their riders will have to fight in packs. Ducati ignored it with merry, because there was no penalty for it until last year).

Even poaching engineers from another Japanese brand was unheard of, because families worked generationally at these factories.

Fast forward to now, and all those things Ducati started; considered rude and unsportsmanlike back then, are the norm now. Even mighty HRC buckled a couple of years ago and hired a few Magneti Marelli engineers; a move that’s akin to Seppuku in the days gone by.

What you said about good engineers based in Europe is partially true. There are excellent engineers in Europe and Japan, if you’re talking skillset. However, the Japanese engineers are indoctrinated to follow the beaten path (Often guided by a mentor for several years at the start of their career) whereas European engineers are culturally rebellious and are open to exploring new avenues.

The reason Yamaha is recovering faster than HRC is also this. Yamaha’s MotoGP outfit has been based in Italy for some time now, which I believe was driven by Lin Jarvis and Davide Brivio. This team is now almost independent, co-led by Gigi’s former right hand man and the Japanese project leader (Unheard of a few years ago). Whereas the might of HRC’s talent base is still Tokyo based. Which worked in the old norm when you nail the spec of your motorcycle at the start of the season and introduce slight updates throughout the season (And usually one major update mid season). Not now, when the Europeans are bringing major parts every 3-4 races. Suzuki incidentally was a hybrid setup, and it worked perfectly because Davide Brivio in Europe and Sahara-San in Hiroshima were on the exact same wavelength. That quickly became undone when Brivio left and Sahara-san moved to Europe to start Suzuki’s disastrous “Decision by committee” era, which eventually led to their withdrawal.

The C*VID years only accelerated the decline when the Japanese race teams had to discuss their feedback over zoom with the factories (a lot getting lost in translation in the process) while the Europeans continued working as usual. The implosion of the Moto2 relationship of the RW racing team (Dutch) and the chassis manufacturer NTS (Japanese) happened for the same reason.

To HRC’s credit, they did recognize the importance of having. Europe based test team earlier than others. Rossi, in his final years at Yamaha also managed to force Iwata to change their ways, which started with the Jonas Folger experiment, and is now a full fledged test team built around Cal Crutchlow.

So maybe, leopards can change their spots. Fingers crossed.
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Great post.

I wonder if for Yamaha it is too little too late at this point with regards to the 1000cc formula. But I would say they've probably well positioned themselves for the 850cc formula. HRC on the other hand, well who really knows. I feel like they will be the biggest unknown going into the next formula as I can't see them being terribly interested in even spending the money to get this one right at this stage in the game.

Maybe the initial cut in HP will turn out to be a good thing for overall competitiveness of the machinery.
 
JPSLotus said:
Great post.

I wonder if for Yamaha it is too little too late at this point with regards to the 1000cc formula. But I would say they've probably well positioned themselves for the 850cc formula. HRC on the other hand, well who really knows. I feel like they will be the biggest unknown going into the next formula as I can't see them being terribly interested in even spending the money to get this one right at this stage in the game.

Maybe the initial cut in HP will turn out to be a good thing for overall competitiveness of the machinery.
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How much would MotoGP actually suffer if both Honda and Yamaha left MotoGP for good, and were replaced by other European manufacturers (i.e., BMW, MV for starters) ?

How much would Honda and Yamaha sales suffer as well world wide, if at all ?

When I have bought a new bike I never consider racing as part of the decision process, I go for what I like and what I can afford, regardless. If I was to buy a new bike now it would be a Kawasaki Ninja 500, MotoGP or not !
 
DavidSim said:
How much would MotoGP actually suffer if both Honda and Yamaha left MotoGP for good, and were replaced by other European manufacturers (i.e., BMW, MV for starters) ?

How much would Honda and Yamaha sales suffer as well world wide, if at all ?

When I have bought a new bike I never consider racing as part of the decision process, I go for what I like and what I can afford, regardless. If I was to buy a new bike now it would be a Kawasaki Ninja 500, MotoGP or not !
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That would make it a bit like the days when there were only Japanese manufacturers
 
DavidSim said:
How much would MotoGP actually suffer if both Honda and Yamaha left MotoGP for good, and were replaced by other European manufacturers (i.e., BMW, MV for starters) ?

How much would Honda and Yamaha sales suffer as well world wide, if at all ?

When I have bought a new bike I never consider racing as part of the decision process, I go for what I like and what I can afford, regardless. If I was to buy a new bike now it would be a Kawasaki Ninja 500, MotoGP or not !
Click to expand...
It would make it akin to US baseball World Series to me. It needs manufacturers from different continents to give it a true flavour of a world championship. My choice would be an Aprilia Tueno 660 which brings into focus as interesting point you’ve raised. Given the vast sums some manufacturers spend on racing does it really influence buyers of sports bikes? Imo the sports bike riding era is over now bar for a few caught up in its death throes. Adventure bikes are the buzzword now. Bikes that go anywhere with reasonable speed are what real world bikers want these days. Hell, even Ducati are getting into mx now!
So why do manufacturers spend so much on racing? In the Japanese case they have seriously reigned it back and stay in it for nostalgic pride. Look at their efforts in WSBK which you’d think is more aligned with market sales than MotoGP but they’re all more or less stood still. While Aprilia are in it to sell bikes they don’t go silly with expenditure but I think Ducati do it simply because they can, it’s like a c0ck fight to them and they want us to know they have the biggest and not the ones like they sell at KFC! They are like old man Ferrari running the business to pay for the racing which unfortunately won’t end well for us aficionados I feel.
 
My humble and biased (wishful?) opinion is that sportbikes are in some ways a victim of their own success. Why would I spend $15-20k on a new sportbike when I could buy a 10 or even 20 year old used bike for half the price with 98% of the performance? Most of what's missing is electronic: TC, ABS, riding modes. Personally I don't care about any of that, give me fuel injection and I'll handle traction and power delivery.
 
If MotoGP goes electric, then I would expect Chinese manufacturers to enter MotoGP. (Or whatever has MotoGP's role). That could be the next major geographic change in MotoGP. I think that the motivation for them would be to establish themselves as world players, not just cheaper alternatives.
 
synn said:
Chinese manufacturers already have a presence in SSP300. I fully expect them to come to Moto3 in some time, and to MotoGP eventually (Which hopefully will not turn into an electric hair dryer championship ).
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I think it's definitely going to happen. And, it will depend on how old we all are whether or not we're likely to see it within our lifetime, or not.

Not having seen MotoE races this year, I think I'll catch up on YouTube. Race one only had seven laps, but they were seven quite eventful laps with a lot of changes for the lead and a quite suspenseful final lap. The race even included a rider crashing out of P1 for no immediately obvious reason, just like 'real' MotoGP.

 
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mylexicon said:
More evidence, imo, that the GPC is either positioning pieces on the board or perhaps they've finally signed some sort of salary cap agreement behind the scenes. A cap agreement could explain why Ducati stopped paying Pramac rider salaries.

The latter makes more sense, but with reality-TV Liberty entering the paddock, who knows?
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Quartararo is making about 10m per year and Bagnaia around 6, so I don’t think there’s any cap.

In the case of Yamaha, I think the delay is likely because of the Pramac decision. My gut tells me that if Yamaha lands Pramac, they most likely will move Rins there and try to get either a younger guy out of Moto2 or a hyped name (Bez seems to be the last one standing ) to partner with Quartararo.
 
synn said:
Quartararo is making about 10m per year and Bagnaia around 6, so I don’t think there’s any cap.

In the case of Yamaha, I think the delay is likely because of the Pramac decision. My gut tells me that if Yamaha lands Pramac, they most likely will move Rins there and try to get either a younger guy out of Moto2 or a hyped name (Bez seems to be the last one standing ) to partner with Quartararo.
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Bezzecchi is supposedly on the top of Aprilia's shopping list.

And Bezzecchi would prefer to stay native.

Oliveira could be an option though.
 
Faz said:
It would make it akin to US baseball World Series to me. It needs manufacturers from different continents to give it a true flavour of a world championship. My choice would be an Aprilia Tueno 660 which brings into focus as interesting point you’ve raised. Given the vast sums some manufacturers spend on racing does it really influence buyers of sports bikes? Imo the sports bike riding era is over now bar for a few caught up in its death throes. Adventure bikes are the buzzword now. Bikes that go anywhere with reasonable speed are what real world bikers want these days. Hell, even Ducati are getting into mx now!
So why do manufacturers spend so much on racing? In the Japanese case they have seriously reigned it back and stay in it for nostalgic pride. Look at their efforts in WSBK which you’d think is more aligned with market sales than MotoGP but they’re all more or less stood still. While Aprilia are in it to sell bikes they don’t go silly with expenditure but I think Ducati do it simply because they can, it’s like a c0ck fight to them and they want us to know they have the biggest and not the ones like they sell at KFC! They are like old man Ferrari running the business to pay for the racing which unfortunately won’t end well for us aficionados I feel.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, sports bikes are still viable, but it's unclear if anyone has the motivation to utilize them on track. The superbike series was created out of thin air by manufacturers, teams and promoters with a desire to race 4-stroke motorcycles. MotoGP is 4-stroke now. Dorna owns MotoGP and WSBK. Plus, the Japanese are not responding swiftly to the re-design of Supersport, nor are they planning to meet Euro emissions for 1000cc machines. Also, in a world of limited resources, sport bikes may not compare favorably with other segments like adventure bikes or off-road bikes.

Is a rubik's cube. Production car racing in the modern era is funded by the gentleman driver. They are buying the GT3 cars and Porsche/Ferrari Cup cars and finding sponsors that keep the entire production racing pyramid afloat. Motorcycle racing is much more dangerous, and cannot rely on the middle aged gentleman rider to keep the race tracks funded. Motorcycle racing is also quite expensive with factory-spec machines costing $250,000 (?), and requiring a team similar in size to production car racing. Motorcycles also have a tendency to be totaled quite often.

These problems are solvable. Superbike could reduce performance to late-90s levels, and adopt next-gen rules to reduce emissions issues. The manufacturers could build and homologate race bikes at a lower-price point, and then function as umbrella service organizations for teams. Is it worth it? Fans are unpredictable and new rules might not satisfy Euro6.

Even if SBK and SSP are made viable, why not torch Moto2 and Moto3, and just fold superbike and supersport into the grand prix paddock? The national series riders and teams would plug directly into the GP paddock for competition and sales. GP would benefit from having manufacturer support and motivation in the lower classes. The performance of the feeder classes would increase. TV production costs are consolidated. Kalex and the rest would just be promoted to MotoGP with engine supply deals.

Sport bikes survive, imo, but I'm not convinced that WSBK will survive. I'm not convinced road-going superbikes will survive, either, but I think supersport is safe.
 
mylexicon said:
Sport bikes survive, imo, but I'm not convinced that WSBK will survive. I'm not convinced road-going superbikes will survive, either, but I think supersport is safe.
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Just focussing in on this point, I predict that sport bikes will survive. There are now large numbers of young people riding electric bicycles around. Frequently including, particularly where I live, illegally modified ones that function more like motorcycles. I predict that a proportion of those riders will be buying powerful motorcycles in their future. They may be electric ones, however.
 
synn said:
Chinese manufacturers already have a presence in SSP300. I fully expect them to come to Moto3 in some time, and to MotoGP eventually (Which hopefully will not turn into an electric hair dryer championship ).
Click to expand...
CFMoto is 51 percent owned by a Chinese company (Zhejiang Chunfeng Power Co., Ltd.), a CFMoto rider currently leads the Moto3 championship standings (David Alonso).

I'm betting they will tackle Moto2 next, we shall see.
 
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synn said:
After watching Jezza McWilliams race in King of the Baggers, I’m convinced that production bike racing doesn’t need to limit itself to pointy bikes. There are other ways to capture the imagination of the average Joe.
Click to expand...

King of the Baggers is one of the best race series that no one seems to know about. I know they are modified, but if you can throw around a v-twin HD like that, you have batshit insane skill.
 

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