2025 Silly Season

MichaelBolton said:

Honda are now planning to ditch all ICE engines (bikes and cars) for 2040. I can't see them staying in Grand Prix racing for long if they keep that path.

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Well if their lawn mowers are still ICE powered, there’s hopefully a championship for that.

JPSLotus said:

Had no idea either about Puig being a shareholder. From an ethics standpoint he should not be serving as Team Principal at all for a GP team in light of that news.

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Now that I think about it, Puig used to run the Road to MotoGP program for Dorna and might have received some stock options that way.

The ethical thing would have been to divest when he took up the Honda gig of course.

synn said:

Now that I think about it, Puig used to run the Road to MotoGP program for Dorna and might have received some stock options that way.

The ethical thing would have been to divest when he took up the Honda gig of course.

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Knowing Puig, he probably sees nothing wrong with the situation.

synn said:

I had a random thought today.
Kawasaki has handed off their WSBK operations to Bimota from next year onwards, who presumably will use the ZX-10R engine in their own chassis and bodywork, as they are known to.

Now would this be a withdrawal of the Kawasaki brand name from competition altogether (a-la Suzuki) or is that a precursor to a renewed MotoGP bid that no one saw coming?

Dorna did say that “Multiple manufacturers” expressed interest after the Liberty media takeover and the announcement of the 2027 Formula.

Would be nice to have team green back. I always thought the ZX-RR had potential that was wasted due to a lack of manufacturer commitment. I don’t expect that incredible screamer engine to return, though…

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I considered this possibility briefly when the Bimota announcement was made, but I do not think Kawasaki will return to MotoGP.

Their split from MotoGP was acrimonious. The ZX-RR was on the cusp of being a competitor in 2007. Kawasaki hired Hopkins for 2008, but the tire changes moved Suzuki and Kawasaki to the back of the pack. Kawasaki were 100% against the control tire, but Dorna forced it through and they forced Kawasaki to pay for Hayate during 2009. Kawasaki's humiliation cannot be undone, particularly since they were humiliated right after landing Monster Energy.

The Bimota deal is probably an isolated WSBK strategy. The 1000s barely pass Euro5 and they don't sell well. In the balance of performance era, Superbike is essentially a chassis-prototyping competition, especially if you have super concessions. Bimota will become Kawasaki's Corse division, which could be particularly useful if homologation quantities decline and bikes are race-only production models. If Superbike goes next-gen, Kawasaki may need funds to design a new engine. Next-gen Supersport bikes clear emissions more easily than Superbikes. The ZX-6R is not well suited to the next-gen regs so Kawasaki could be putting resources into the middleweight segment, too.

I hope Kawasaki return, but I'm not bullish. I think they are merely preparing for a tectonic shift in WSBK.

mylexicon said:

I considered this possibility briefly when the Bimota announcement was made, but I do not think Kawasaki will return to MotoGP.

Their split from MotoGP was acrimonious. The ZX-RR was on the cusp of being a competitor in 2007. Kawasaki hired Hopkins for 2008, hoping that he could repeat his from in 2007, but the tire changes moved Suzuki and Kawasaki to the back of the pack. Kawasaki were 100% against the control tire, but Dorna forced it through and they forced Kawasaki to pay for Hayate during 2009. Kawasaki's humiliation cannot be undone, particularly since they were humiliated right after landing Monster Energy.

The Bimota deal is probably an isolated WSBK strategy. The 1000s barely pass Euro5 and they don't sell well. In the balance of performance era, Superbike is essentially a chassis-prototyping competition, especially if you have super concessions. Bimota will basically become Kawasaki's Corse division, which could be particularly useful if homologation quantities decline and bikes are race-only production models. If Superbike goes next-gen, Kawasaki may need funds to design a new engine. Next-gen Supersport bikes clear emissions more easily than Superbikes. The ZX-6R is not well suited to the next-gen regs so Kawasaki could be putting resources into the middleweight segment, too.

I hope Kawasaki return, but I'm not bullish. I think they are merely preparing for a tectonic shift in WSBK.

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Very fair analysis. Can’t disagree.

Just wanted to point out that a few years ago KRT approached Dorna and expressed interest in fielding a Wildcard MotoGP entry powered by a modified ZX 10R engine and a prototype chassis. Dorna declined as it didn’t conform to the MotoGP rulebook (This was after the open class).

So maybe, there is a little bit of an interest left in Team Green. I sure hope so.

Keshav said:

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the issue of tires in the upcoming 850 era. Michelin has been .....-slow when it comes to adapting to new technology. I'm anticipating an "interesting" (in the Chinese sense of the word) year with riders trying to adapt to a new engine formula on tires that will be, at best, loosely compatible with the new bikes.

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I believe Michelin will create functional tires for the 850cc formula. I don't think overheating or other issues will arise, but it's difficult to predict how the aero rules will change grip balance. If the downforce and aero drag decrease more than expected in the braking areas, I could see a lot of front end crashes and salty riders publicly criticizing Michelin.

michaelm said:

I had a recent model Honda Civic Type R. People actually liked the wing, amusingly. In the end I am ideologically.opposed to FWD, but the engine was a work of art, and jewel like to behold.

HRC in GP bike racing work by arcane principles beyond my ken which perhaps only Yamaha with whom they engaged in what seemed to be a form of ritual combat for all those years also understand. They have an engineering philosophy, for good or ill though, and as Lex says they appear to fundamentally disapprove of aero on bikes. Iirc they threatened Ducati with outspending them if they went that path years ago, not a threat they can make now I guess with VW Audi on board.

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Love the Civic R. Where I live (in the Ramapo mountains) we get a fair amount of snow every year, so four-wheel-drive is really necessary. Currently, driving a 320I X drive. Would seriously consider going for the Honda if it had four-wheel-drive, except, I still play out every week, and need room for guitars, mandolins and amps going to gigs.

Keshav said:

Love the Civic R. Where I live (in the Ramapo mountains) we get a fair amount of snow every year, so four-wheel-drive is really necessary. Currently, driving a 320I X drive. Would seriously consider going for the Honda if it had four-wheel-drive, except, I still play out every week, and need room for guitars, mandolins and amps going to gigs.

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Good for you Kesh! Playing out keeps you on your toes! Can’t imagine doing it in the snow any more though!

michaelm said:

Glad to see you have got with the strength and come to appreciate Casey in his retirement. I find his line of thought in interviews now hard to follow at times as it was when he was racing, but his heart is in the right place and he rode like a god in his two title years, and nearly every year at PI.

Speaking of my ultimate GP bike racing heroes, Doohan apparently did actually do something at Honda akin to what you are accusing MM of doing, he reputedly got HRC to adopt the screamer engine because only he could ride it.

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Only Doohan rode it though. The others were able to ride the other.

Honda's 24 bike addressed problems of the 23 bike and damaged what were the strengths of the 23 bike, I get the impression that Honda's engineers work in silos, that Honda need to restructure to something like Ducati so improvements are done without damaging something else. Until they get that sorted then there won't be top riders knocking on their door with contracts in their hands

warthog1 said:

Only Doohan rode it though. The others were able to ride the other.

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In many ways the sport was better back then imo, but it was hard to follow it in the depth possible now with every practice session etc getting blanket coverage, and your knowledge is doubtless better than mine. Back then I mainly relied on what the TV commentators said before and after the races.

I do remember Mick who doubtless considered his ability to set up his bike with JB’s assistance one of his advantages being pissed off when after being a second a lap faster in practice he found some of his advantage evaporating when his data/settings were given to the other Honda riders. He wasn’t keen on Alex Criville sitting on him during races either as I recall, and there was the fairly famous incident when he allowed a crash to occur to prove a point to Alex. Don’t know how Mick would have been perceived in the modern media age, but I found his sheer bloodymindedness appealing.

He seems to be fairly mellow these days in recent interviews, and I believe is involved in selling business jets, for which purpose I guess he has reasonable connections both from being an all time great in his sport and his time domiciled in Monaco. I only found out in recent years from an interview with his son Jack that Michael Schumacher was a family friend from their Monaco days.

Keshav said:

Love the Civic R. Where I live (in the Ramapo mountains) we get a fair amount of snow every year, so four-wheel-drive is really necessary. Currently, driving a 320I X drive. Would seriously consider going for the Honda if it had four-wheel-drive, except, I still play out every week, and need room for guitars, mandolins and amps going to gigs.

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It was a hatchback and surprisingly capacious if you put the back seats down, although doubtless insufficient for your purpose.

michaelm said:

In many ways the sport was better back then imo, but it was hard to follow it in the depth possible now with every practice session etc getting blanket coverage, and your knowledge is doubtless better than mine. Back then I mainly relied on what the TV commentators said before and after the races.

I do remember Mick who doubtless considered his ability to set up his bike with JB’s assistance one of his advantages being pissed off when after being a second a lap faster in practice he found some of his advantage evaporating when his data/settings were given to the other Honda riders. He wasn’t keen on Alex Criville sitting on him during races either as I recall, and there was the fairly famous incident when he allowed a crash to occur to prove a point to Alex. Don’t know how Mick would have been perceived in the modern media age, but I found his sheer bloodymindedness appealing.

He seems to be fairly mellow these days in recent interviews, and I believe is involved in selling business jets, for which purpose I guess he has reasonable connections both from being an all time great in his sport and his time domiciled in Monaco. I only found out in recent years from an interview with his son Jack that Michael Schumacher was a family friend from their Monaco days.

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I don't think my knowledge is better at all. I had motorcycles and was a young fella who was a mad keen fan of his back then, is all. Missed a fair bit of the Stoner era. Life just got in the way.
As I remember Doohan used the screamer as somewhat of a tool to get into the heads of others on the Honda. He could ride it and be fast on it and others could not. He could have ridden the big bang just as fast I expect but chose the screamer as only he could ride it. Whether that made others question his settings I know not. I expect if they tried them and they worked anyway that would have soon negated that advantage. I wasn't over others using his settings back then.

warthog1 said:

I don't think my knowledge is better at all. I had motorcycles and was a young fella who was a mad keen fan of his back then, is all. Missed a fair bit of the Stoner era. Life just got in the way.
As I remember Doohan used the screamer as somewhat of a tool to get into the heads of others on the Honda. He could ride it and be fast on it and others could not. He could have ridden the big bang just as fast I expect but chose the screamer as only he could ride it. Whether that made others question his settings I know not. I expect if they tried them and they worked anyway that would have soon negated that advantage. I wasn't over others using his settings back then.

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The practice thing was definitely true, and now I think of it possibly part of the reason he went to the screamer. I probably didn’t know the difference between a screamer and a big bang engine back then.

Bendigo was the home of my father’s ancestors btw.

synn said:

Well if their lawn mowers are still ICE powered, there’s hopefully a championship for that.

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Maybe by 2040 Esports will have taken over, and actual real racing of physical bikes and cars will be seen as quaint and unbelievably dangerous and 'did people really do that'. In Esports, battery sizes and available energy are completely irrelevant as you can simply make up whatever physics you want.

Note that I'm not promoting this as an eventuality. Just saying that it may happen.

I'm not sure of the reasons - and see many different theories online - but it appears that the Japanese factories have been less agile and less creative than the European factories. If this is the root cause of the Japanese manufacturers falling behind, then even if certain technologies are banned, then it's likely to be the European factories that adapt to new regulations and opportunities quicker. So, while I feel that the current concessions will help Yamaha catch up (not yet sure about HRC), then unless the underlying problem is addressed then they'll fall behind again.

I've seen articles saying that the Japanese teams have two problems - most of the good engineers are in Europe, and are more likely to sign up to companies that allow them to work in Europe. And, with the teams being closer to the majority of the actual races, that it's easier for engineers to visit races and see the bikes in action. Note that I don't necessarily think that these are the correct descriptions of the reasons for falling behind, but put them forward for discussion. Speaking personally - I'm not sure that I know and/or understand the true reasons. But, unless the underlying causes are identified and addressed, any solution to the problem is likely to be temporary.

AnnoyingTwit said:

Maybe by 2040 Esports will have taken over, and actual real racing of physical bikes and cars will be seen as quaint and unbelievably dangerous and 'did people really do that'. In Esports, battery sizes and available energy are completely irrelevant as you can simply make up whatever physics you want.

Note that I'm not promoting this as an eventuality. Just saying that it may happen.

I'm not sure of the reasons - and see many different theories online - but it appears that the Japanese factories have been less agile and less creative than the European factories. If this is the root cause of the Japanese manufacturers falling behind, then even if certain technologies are banned, then it's likely to be the European factories that adapt to new regulations and opportunities quicker. So, while I feel that the current concessions will help Yamaha catch up (not yet sure about HRC), then unless the underlying problem is addressed then they'll fall behind again.

I've seen articles saying that the Japanese teams have two problems - most of the good engineers are in Europe, and are more likely to sign up to companies that allow them to work in Europe. And, with the teams being closer to the majority of the actual races, that it's easier for engineers to visit races and see the bikes in action. Note that I don't necessarily think that these are the correct descriptions of the reasons for falling behind, but put them forward for discussion. Speaking personally - I'm not sure that I know and/or understand the true reasons. But, unless the underlying causes are identified and addressed, any solution to the problem is likely to be temporary.

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In hindsight, Ducati homologating their factory bikes as “Open class” that I mentioned previously, was the pivotal moment in the sport.

It was a Gigi decision, no doubt inspired by F1 designers who read the rulebook a thousand times and work their way around it. It caught the Japanese off guard. Sure, it was legal, but it’s not how they operated. Honor was the norm (recollect how the Japanese factories adhered to the minimum tyre pressure law, even when they knew their riders will have to fight in packs. Ducati ignored it with merry, because there was no penalty for it until last year).

Even poaching engineers from another Japanese brand was unheard of, because families worked generationally at these factories.

Fast forward to now, and all those things Ducati started; considered rude and unsportsmanlike back then, are the norm now. Even mighty HRC buckled a couple of years ago and hired a few Magneti Marelli engineers; a move that’s akin to Seppuku in the days gone by.

What you said about good engineers based in Europe is partially true. There are excellent engineers in Europe and Japan, if you’re talking skillset. However, the Japanese engineers are indoctrinated to follow the beaten path (Often guided by a mentor for several years at the start of their career) whereas European engineers are culturally rebellious and are open to exploring new avenues.

The reason Yamaha is recovering faster than HRC is also this. Yamaha’s MotoGP outfit has been based in Italy for some time now, which I believe was driven by Lin Jarvis and Davide Brivio. This team is now almost independent, co-led by Gigi’s former right hand man and the Japanese project leader (Unheard of a few years ago). Whereas the might of HRC’s talent base is still Tokyo based. Which worked in the old norm when you nail the spec of your motorcycle at the start of the season and introduce slight updates throughout the season (And usually one major update mid season). Not now, when the Europeans are bringing major parts every 3-4 races. Suzuki incidentally was a hybrid setup, and it worked perfectly because Davide Brivio in Europe and Sahara-San in Hiroshima were on the exact same wavelength. That quickly became undone when Brivio left and Sahara-san moved to Europe to start Suzuki’s disastrous “Decision by committee” era, which eventually led to their withdrawal.

The C*VID years only accelerated the decline when the Japanese race teams had to discuss their feedback over zoom with the factories (a lot getting lost in translation in the process) while the Europeans continued working as usual. The implosion of the Moto2 relationship of the RW racing team (Dutch) and the chassis manufacturer NTS (Japanese) happened for the same reason.

To HRC’s credit, they did recognize the importance of having. Europe based test team earlier than others. Rossi, in his final years at Yamaha also managed to force Iwata to change their ways, which started with the Jonas Folger experiment, and is now a full fledged test team built around Cal Crutchlow.

So maybe, leopards can change their spots. Fingers crossed.

mikesbytes said:

Honda's 24 bike addressed problems of the 23 bike and damaged what were the strengths of the 23 bike, I get the impression that Honda's engineers work in silos, that Honda need to restructure to something like Ducati so improvements are done without damaging something else. Until they get that sorted then there won't be top riders knocking on their door with contracts in their hands

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Indeed, one of the first changes Gigi made at Ducati Corse, was to rotate engineers across departments because they did indeed worked in silos. When they made the switch from carbon to Aluminium chassis, the chassis team barely talked to the engine team and no one had a clue how different the engine character needed to be to accommodate this massive change in philosophy.

Can’t get more official than that. Hubert Trunkenpolz (The T in KTM and current head of MV), confirms that the intent is to bring MV back to MotoGP in 2027. Bad news is, it will be a badge engineering effort and the bike will be the same as the KTM.

Worth noting that the MV presence in Moto2 was also a pure marketing effort. The actual chassis engineering was done by Forward and the partnership ended when Varese (Not for the first time) ran out of money.

synn said:

Fresh detail provided about “intention” to return MV Agusta to MotoGP

"2027 may be a good year for MV Agusta to enter MotoGP.”

www.crash.net

Can’t get more official than that. Hubert Trunkenpolz (The T in KTM and current head of MV), confirms that the intent is to bring MV back to MotoGP in 2027. Bad news is, it will be a badge engineering effort and the bike will be the same as the KTM.

Worth noting that the MV presence in Moto2 was also a pure marketing effort. The actual chassis engineering was done by Forward and the partnership ended when Varese (Not for the first time) ran out of money.

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No real surprise there that it's just going to be a rebadged KTM. I would have loved to have seen a true MV Agusta effort, but it's not practical for a factory of that size in this day and age. Will be interesting to see how they are treated in the overall scheme of things. I guess if you are Herve Poncharal you have to be wondering who is going to supply your bikes down the road? I don't think even as a marketing exercise KTM wants the Tech 3 name anywhere on the bike.

synn said:

Worth noting that the MV presence in Moto2 was also a pure marketing effort. The actual chassis engineering was done by Forward and the partnership ended when Varese (Not for the first time) ran out of money.

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But did Pierer own any shares in MV back then?
The Moto2 bike called MV back then and called Forward now goes all the way back to a Suter development I believe.