2025 Silly Season

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michaelm said:
Even if he wanted to do that Gigi wouldn’t co-operate.

Nakamoto said years ahead that losing their bespoke ECU would cripple Honda.
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The bespoke ECU was the difference maker for the Japanese brands. I recollect reading the Yamaha ECU dynamically adjusted TC per corner per lap, based on Tyre wear. You could also ham fist the throttle and dump the clutch for the start and nail it, no wheelies, stalling, nothing of that sort. Without all the ride height devices and such.

I’m sure the HRC one was just as sophisticated, if not more.
 
synn said:
The bespoke ECU was the difference maker for the Japanese brands. I recollect reading the Yamaha ECU dynamically adjusted TC per corner per lap, based on Tyre wear. You could also ham fist the throttle and dump the clutch for the start and nail it, no wheelies, stalling, nothing of that sort. Without all the ride height devices and such.

I’m sure the HRC one was just as sophisticated, if not more.
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You would have thought they have had enough years to do something about it by now, but my understanding was that they developed an engine to be as powerful as possible to counter the horsepower threat from Ducati, then tamed it with the bespoke ECU and the software between MM’s ears. It was said he just asked for the bike to be as fast as possible and he would deal with it, but obviously that eventually came unstuck. I doubt he was responsible for the inherent character of the engine which was designed in tandem with the Honda ECU.though. Their crews reputedly involved more than a few computer engineers which was majorly expensive.

Happy for all that to go but ride height and aero are worse imo.
 
I’d be happy if they replaced all the ride height devices with electronic suspension, which has a lot more relevance to road going motorcycles. After all, racing is supposed to improve road bikes, right?
 
#22 said:
Lenovo Ducati
Francesco Bagnaia
Marc Marquez

Red Bull KTM
Brad Binder
Pedro Acosta

Aprilia Racing
Jorge Martin
TBC (Bezzechi? Mir? Diggia?)

Repsol Honda
TBC (Jack Miller, Oliveria?)
Luca Marini

Monster Yamaha
Fabio Quartararo
? (Likely Alex Rins is retained)

Red Bull KTM Tech 3
Enea Bastiannini
Maverick Vinales

Pramac Ducati (Yamaha?)
TBC (Miguel Oliveira, Joan Mir?)
TBC (Miguel Oliveira, Joan Mir, Franco Morbidelli?)

VR46 Ducati
Marco Bezzechi?
Diggia? Morbidelli? Aldeguer?

Gresini Ducati
Alex Marquez
TBC (Miguel Oliveira, Joan Mir? Femin Aldeguer)

Trackhouse Racing Aprilia
TBC (Miguel Oliveira, Joan Mir?)
TBC (Raul Fernandez Likely to be retained)

LCR Honda
Johann Zarco
Takaagi Nakagami? Ai Ogura?
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Silly Season 10 signed, 12 to go
mylexicon said:
The Yamaha riders complained about midrange acceleration and top speed compared to Ducati. Yamaha consulted with an F1 engineer to redesign some engine components. Those components were surely lighter to help the engine rev freely and achieve higher rpm.
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Getting F1 to design for power in MotoGP usually ends in grief
synn said:
Now would this be a withdrawal of the Kawasaki brand name from competition altogether (a-la Suzuki) or is that a precursor to a renewed MotoGP bid that no one saw coming?
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They still need to build an engine, a hotted up road engine doesn't cut it
synn said:
As I remember, they had a few engine configurations in the works (The first M1 was basically a 2 stroke Yamaha with a half finished 4 stroke engine). Rossi and Burgess very quickly zeroed in on the right spec to continue development.
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And they handed the old 4stroke to Barros who immediately won a race on it
moto vudu said:
Marquez destroyed Honda, now he'll do the same to Ducati in his quest for another title before retiring. He's going to do everything in his power to make sure Ducati develops for only him to create a bike that the other riders will struggle to ride. He'll lead Ducati the wrong direction and once he leaves, Ducati will find themselves in the position Honda is currently in.
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I doubt that Gigi would let that happen

In regards with Vinales there could of been money involved. Aprilia is a budget operation so perhaps the signing of Martin left less money for Vinales so he went KTM money. He is also 29 and nowadays not many riders make it to 35 so he needs to ensure that the beer fridge is fully stocked for the rest of his life
 
moto vudu said:
Marquez destroyed Honda, now he'll do the same to Ducati in his quest for another title before retiring. He's going to do everything in his power to make sure Ducati develops for only him to create a bike that the other riders will struggle to ride. He'll lead Ducati the wrong direction and once he leaves, Ducati will find themselves in the position Honda is currently in.

Click to expand...


Destroyed the Honda?

If you would claiming the inverse, I'd agree.

As @michaelm said, the loss of the bespoke ECU is what really did Honda in. You can trace a decline from 2016 onwards, the bike became more difficult to ride over those years. I said as early as 2017 that it was not a good bike and Marc was making up for the deficiencies. The 2015 bike's problem was the engine characteristics. They got hidden in the heat and humidity at Sepang's tests and Casey was the only one who picked up on it. But as has been mentioned, had MM rode with more caution, he could have easily won the 2015 title. Just wouldn't have been in any particular dominant fashion.

Ducati will be just fine.
 
Losing the spec ECU was definitely a loss for HRC, but Marquez masking their problems is also a significant contributing factor to their decline IMO.

The timelines roughly align, 2016 onwards, no one could really be consistently fast on the RCV other than Marquez, and HRC just kept adding more power as per Marquez’s feedback (which he successfully used to go on the dominant streak of the decade).

Yamaha to a certain extent suffered the same fate when the blue Marquez asked for a faster engine, everything else be damned.

The problem is, with aero, the Blue Marquez isn’t enough to mask the other problems like the Orange Marquez did previously.

Edit: won’t likely happen with Ducati because first and foremost you need to ride it the Gigi way.
 
moto vudu said:
The aero and electronics have ruined the sport. I don't know if you guys watch Gypsy Tales on Youtube, but Casey, Jack Miller, Ben Spies have been interviewed and they all say there's just too much electronics these days. I agree with Spies saying they should ditch the aero and have less electronics. All they need is a control tire that all the bikes can get to the limit of that tire. That will ensure closer racing and better racing/battles.

Here's Casey talking about his turn 3 technique at PI. I don't think this is even possible on a current GP machine because the traction control wouldn't allow it. But this is exactly why Stoner hated when elecontrics arrived because it took away rider's ability to use certain techniques to get an edge on track. Now riders get an edge thanks to their software developer. The only thing they can do on their own is just trying to outbrake the next rider, but software and electronics is making all the difference and certain riders/bikes have a better software package.



Click to expand...

Glad to see you have got with the strength and come to appreciate Casey in his retirement. I find his line of thought in interviews now hard to follow at times as it was when he was racing, but his heart is in the right place and he rode like a god in his two title years, and nearly every year at PI.

Speaking of my ultimate GP bike racing heroes, Doohan apparently did actually do something at Honda akin to what you are accusing MM of doing, he reputedly got HRC to adopt the screamer engine because only he could ride it.
 
Last edited:
Regarding development being driven by a single racer, it's a tale as old as time.

If your goal is to win world championships, wouldn't you want a car or bike developed to your particular strengths so as to maximize your chances of winning a championship? The most ruthless racers in history all did this.
 
michaelm said:
Yes, but it isn’t being suggested they will change configuration afaik. They seemed to get their new 990 engine up for Rossi joining them fairly quickly, but maybe they had been working on it for years.
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Synn gave the details on this, but basically at Rossi's first test they had a number of engine concepts to try and he/Burgess decided to go with the big bang engine.

I also read in a Matt Oxley article that they both found a huge issue right away with the electronics where basically it was somehow allowing the front wheel to lock in the middle of a corner!
michaelm said:
The amusement value of the comments on that site palls very quickly.

Basically it seems to be the old Crashnet forum transferred , even Wosi who must be close to being the chief lieutenant of the Valeban is on there.
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Oh good old Wosideg.
moto vudu said:
Marquez destroyed Honda, now he'll do the same to Ducati in his quest for another title before retiring. He's going to do everything in his power to make sure Ducati develops for only him to create a bike that the other riders will struggle to ride. He'll lead Ducati the wrong direction and once he leaves, Ducati will find themselves in the position Honda is currently in.

Click to expand...

Gigi Dallignia is the powerhouse there, no way will that happen under his watch.

But, you know, keep dreaming...
 
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the issue of tires in the upcoming 850 era. Michelin has been .....-slow when it comes to adapting to new technology. I'm anticipating an "interesting" (in the Chinese sense of the word) year with riders trying to adapt to a new engine formula on tires that will be, at best, loosely compatible with the new bikes.
 
moto vudu said:
Marquez destroyed Honda, now he'll do the same to Ducati in his quest for another title before retiring. He's going to do everything in his power to make sure Ducati develops for only him to create a bike that the other riders will struggle to ride. He'll lead Ducati the wrong direction and once he leaves, Ducati will find themselves in the position Honda is currently in.
Click to expand...


Don't hate the player hate the engineers.
 
synn said:
Losing the spec ECU was definitely a loss for HRC, but Marquez masking their problems is also a significant contributing factor to their decline IMO.

The timelines roughly align, 2016 onwards, no one could really be consistently fast on the RCV other than Marquez, and HRC just kept adding more power as per Marquez’s feedback (which he successfully used to go on the dominant streak of the decade).

Yamaha to a certain extent suffered the same fate when the blue Marquez asked for a faster engine, everything else be damned.

The problem is, with aero, the Blue Marquez isn’t enough to mask the other problems like the Orange Marquez did previously.

Edit: won’t likely happen with Ducati because first and foremost you need to ride it the Gigi way.
Click to expand...

Also the switch to Michelin from Bridgestone in 2016 also made things difficult because You not only had to program a spec ECU but had to also do it to a new control tire with which no real data existed.

I have to say in hindsight, what MM did with that Michelin front tire which was most certainly not designed with his riding style in mind was incredible during that time period.

I always thought the chase after power was eventually going to do Honda in because you eventually start sacrificing cornering. Yamaha doing the same thing was never going to work out. I understand why he wanted more power on the M1 but the M1 was never supposed to be a straight line bike anyhow.
 
Keshav said:
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the issue of tires in the upcoming 850 era. Michelin has been .....-slow when it comes to adapting to new technology. I'm anticipating an "interesting" (in the Chinese sense of the word) year with riders trying to adapt to a new engine formula on tires that will be, at best, loosely compatible with the new bikes.
Click to expand...
Michelin’s new front tyre with higher volume (ie less overheating in pack) will be ready by end of 2025.

Given the lesser aero loads and lower top speeds from 2027 (hence less intense braking), this should lead to better tyre performance overall. At least that’s the theory.

If I were Liberty media I’d just commission Bridgestone to do the front and Michelin to do the rear. Problem solved.
 
JPSLotus said:
understand why he wanted more power on the M1 but the M1 was never supposed to be a straight line bike anyhow.
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It’s beyond that, Quartararo wanted to fight the V4 bikes the V4 way, so over the course of a couple of years, he and Gubbelini changed the geometry to attack the corners in a V. If you watch the aerial shots of 2019 Quartararo vs 2022 Quartararo, you’ll clearly see this.

In hindsight, probably not the best of ideas. Hopefully with the aero updates and a retuned engine they can slowly bring the M1 back to what it was before.
 
synn said:
Michelin’s new front tyre with higher volume (ie less overheating in pack) will be ready by end of 2025.

Given the lesser aero loads and lower top speeds from 2027 (hence less intense braking), this should lead to better tyre performance overall. At least that’s the theory.

If I were Liberty media I’d just commission Bridgestone to do the front and Michelin to do the rear. Problem solved.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't trust Michelin to make my condoms. Last thing I need is a delamination.
 
synn said:
Michelin’s new front tyre with higher volume (ie less overheating in pack) will be ready by end of 2025.

Given the lesser aero loads and lower top speeds from 2027 (hence less intense braking), this should lead to better tyre performance overall. At least that’s the theory.

If I were Liberty media I’d just commission Bridgestone to do the front and Michelin to do the rear. Problem solved.
Click to expand...
I just don't think Michelin can predict the way the tires will work across the board, what with changes in weight, weight distribution and adjustments to spacing between tire and radiator that will be different from bike to bike. Some will doubtless benefit by default while others suffer.
 
synn said:
It’s beyond that, Quartararo wanted to fight the V4 bikes the V4 way, so over the course of a couple of years, he and Gubbelini changed the geometry to attack the corners in a V. If you watch the aerial shots of 2019 Quartararo vs 2022 Quartararo, you’ll clearly see this.

In hindsight, probably not the best of ideas. Hopefully with the aero updates and a retuned engine they can slowly bring the M1 back to what it was before.
Click to expand...

The 2027 reset should in theory let them get the bike back to a corner speed monster, but it's all going to revolve around that engine design. Fabio has more faith in Yamaha than I do at this point. But they do seem to be taking things more seriously, of course that's not promised to bring the results necessary.
 

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