2025 Silly Season

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synn said:
That was a 2 stroke 500cc high side. I don’t recall seeing anything like that in the 4 stroke era.
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Me either. That Honda became akin to a 500cc GP bike and still is in my opinion. No one dares trying to push that bike to the limit. Marc was the only one who was willing to do it, and even he had enough.
 
JPSLotus said:
I'll always marvel at how badly wrong they got the bike when he was gone. I get they needed to make a bike that others could ride but holy .... did they get it wrong. I still think about that Mandalika high side that was off-throttle. He got extremely lucky with that one because holy .... that could have been far worse than what happened.
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Further to my above post. One complaint that Marquez had was that along with losing front end feel, the dangerous part of the 2022- RCV was that rear grip would be lost almost instantaneously, causing accidents like that one. I seem to recall he had a similar crash in warmup at Sachsenring too when Taka was following him and said 'He was doing nothing wrong, and the bike suddenly flicked him'

My fear with Honda, is they never conquered aero in F1 either (their aborted 2005-2008 F1 team showed that). So maybe they are waiting for the 2027 rules. Either way, the only way for them is up.
 
JPSLotus said:
Me either. That Honda became akin to a 500cc GP bike and still is in my opinion. No one dares trying to push that bike to the limit. Marc was the only one who was willing to do it, and even he had enough.
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It must take an extraordinary amount of talent to design a modern motorcycle that chews through riders like a 2 stroke that had an ECU that was out powered by a Casio G shock.
 
#22 said:
If you look at the tripe on Motorsport.com, they make out (in the comments section) that Marquez developed the current Honda. He didn't. Pol Espargaro did. They tilted the engine backwards to give more rear grip (along with other changes) at his request. Who can forget pre season 2022 and the podium interview in Qatar? "Honda have given me the bike I asked for"

5 races later, he was saying it was a huge pile of crap.
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What one Espargaro broke, maybe the other will fix soon-ish…
 
#22 said:
My fear with Honda, is they never conquered aero in F1 either (their aborted 2005-2008 F1 team showed that).
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Aren’t they going to supply engines to Aston Martin? Maybe they could leverage on them…
 
synn said:


Video of Quartararo testing at Valencia (Might have to swipe a bit, I don’t know how Instagram links work on a forum).

Sounds really strange that the TC is kicking in hard during corner exit. They really are struggling to put all the power down.
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I’m not too surprised. The Yamaha riders complained about midrange acceleration and top speed compared to Ducati. Yamaha consulted with an F1 engineer to redesign some engine components. Those components were surely lighter to help the engine rev freely and achieve higher rpm.

I’m not sure if that’s the cause, but it could be a contributing factor. I don’t know the limitations of the ride height device, but lowering the bike too quickly will also unload the the rear.

Yamaha needed more top end, but maybe they went too far?
 
mylexicon said:
I’m not too surprised. The Yamaha riders complained about midrange acceleration and top speed compared to Ducati. Yamaha consulted with an F1 engineer to redesign some engine components. Those components were surely lighter to help the engine rev freely and achieve higher rpm.

I’m not sure if that’s the cause, but it could be a contributing factor. I don’t know the limitations of the ride height device, but lowering the bike too quickly will also unload the the rear.

Yamaha needed more top end, but maybe they went too far?
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Yes, that definitely sounds plausible.

They did introduce a new ride height device this year (Hence the new tail, it squats lower), but maybe it’s unloading too fast.

I remember even in the early days of the GigiCedici, where they were basically turning the motorcycle upside down, it had phenomenal mechanical grip. They got that right before Gigi used aero to fix turning. Maybe there’s a lesson for Yamaha to learn there.
 
#22 said:
I don't disagree, but he still won the title, not an easy thing. His consistency was vastly superior to his team mates and his podium tappy was only (just) beaten by Morbidelli.

I agree, and have repeatedy stated that his, nor Fabio or Bagnaias titles, have been won with anywhere near the level of consistency shown by Marquez in 2019. Had Marc not given himself a needless injury in 2020, I doubt few would say he wouldn't have won the title.

And Pedrosa...Honda's whole MO around the 800cc regs was based on their micro rider.
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Or they decided on mass centralisation as an engineering philosophy then sought a rider they considered would suit same as Lex said at the time.
 
+ 1 on being dumbfounded by Mav’s move.

Best I can come up with is that he’s like a chick in a jewelry store, so sure that the latest and greatest bling toy will at last let him shine.

Beyond me why manufacturers go with him. I like him and he is fast on the day. But I can’t see that being enough. Sure a couple of wins,poles, fast laps, whatever. What about the rest of the time? Not to mention the sulking and blaming. Come on Mav, shoulda stayed at Aprilia…..
 
I had a random thought today.
Kawasaki has handed off their WSBK operations to Bimota from next year onwards, who presumably will use the ZX-10R engine in their own chassis and bodywork, as they are known to.

Now would this be a withdrawal of the Kawasaki brand name from competition altogether (a-la Suzuki) or is that a precursor to a renewed MotoGP bid that no one saw coming?

Dorna did say that “Multiple manufacturers” expressed interest after the Liberty media takeover and the announcement of the 2027 Formula.

Would be nice to have team green back. I always thought the ZX-RR had potential that was wasted due to a lack of manufacturer commitment. I don’t expect that incredible screamer engine to return, though…
 
synn said:
i guess his point was that the V4 manufacturers most likely will just downsleeve their existing engines for cost reasons, while yamaha can and should build a new engine that is narrower (even if it is one inch), which brings them that much closer.

Developing an all new V4 engine means at least 5 years to be competitive as KTM has shown, even Aprilia's switch from 60 degree to 90 degree was about 3 years in the making, and took another 1.5 years to be competitive. I don't think Yamaha can afford that. If they wanted to go down that road, they should have started the project during Rossi+ Lorenzo 2.0 , IMO.

More worrying about Yamaha is what Simon Crafar shared a couple of years ago on air. Apparently, when they changed their air intake shape to chase performance, they also ran the intake through the headstock (vs around it), which completely killed their front end feel and corner speed machine status. They’ve managed to get some of it back, but not all of it. Which is incidentally one of Quartararo’s main complaints (As well as Rossi’s, in his final seasons).

Maybe aero will help mitigate this. Maybe not. We’ll see.
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Yes, but it isn’t being suggested they will change configuration afaik. They seemed to get their new 990 engine up for Rossi joining them fairly quickly, but maybe they had been working on it for years.
 
#22 said:
I imagine a headstock with an air intake through it cannot be as firm as one without, and added aero load would do them no favours at all.

If you look at the tripe on Motorsport.com, they make out (in the comments section) that Marquez developed the current Honda. He didn't. Pol Espargaro did. They tilted the engine backwards to give more rear grip (along with other changes) at his request. Who can forget pre season 2022 and the podium interview in Qatar? "Honda have given me the bike I asked for"

5 races later, he was saying it was a huge pile of crap.
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The amusement value of the comments on that site palls very quickly.

Basically it seems to be the old Crashnet forum transferred , even Wosi who must be close to being the chief lieutenant of the Valeban is on there.
 
michaelm said:
Yes, but it isn’t being suggested they will change configuration afaik. They seemed to get their new 990 engine up for Rossi joining them fairly quickly, but maybe they had been working on it for years.
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As I remember, they had a few engine configurations in the works (The first M1 was basically a 2 stroke Yamaha with a half finished 4 stroke engine). Rossi and Burgess very quickly zeroed in on the right spec to continue development.

They also fixed some other issues such as “Lack of turning under braking”, which turned out to be because the front mudguard was rubbing on the nose fairing when the forks were compressed.

Tells you what stage the M1 project was in when they arrived…
 
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The aero and electronics have ruined the sport. I don't know if you guys watch Gypsy Tales on Youtube, but Casey, Jack Miller, Ben Spies have been interviewed and they all say there's just too much electronics these days. I agree with Spies saying they should ditch the aero and have less electronics. All they need is a control tire that all the bikes can get to the limit of that tire. That will ensure closer racing and better racing/battles.

Here's Casey talking about his turn 3 technique at PI. I don't think this is even possible on a current GP machine because the traction control wouldn't allow it. But this is exactly why Stoner hated when elecontrics arrived because it took away rider's ability to use certain techniques to get an edge on track. Now riders get an edge thanks to their software developer. The only thing they can do on their own is just trying to outbrake the next rider, but software and electronics is making all the difference and certain riders/bikes have a better software package.



 
Marquez destroyed Honda, now he'll do the same to Ducati in his quest for another title before retiring. He's going to do everything in his power to make sure Ducati develops for only him to create a bike that the other riders will struggle to ride. He'll lead Ducati the wrong direction and once he leaves, Ducati will find themselves in the position Honda is currently in.

 
synn said:
As I remember, they had a few engine configurations in the works (The first M1 was basically a 2 stroke Yamaha with a half finished 4 stroke engine). Rossi and Burgess very quickly zeroed in on the right spec to continue development.

They also fixed some other issues such as “Lack of turning under braking”, which turned out to be because the front mudguard was rubbing on the nose fairing when the forks were compressed.

Tells you what stage the M1 project was in when they arrived…
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Yes, I did recall they didn’t even have a 990 engine designed from the ground up prior to 2004. It was rumoured there was considerable impetus from Dorna including encouraging Rossi to move to have some competition for Honda. It was a longshot for him to be so competitive so quickly, and great credit was and is due of course.

It was the reverse for Ducati iirc, they would/did only join when the formula became a 4 stroke formula.
 
moto vudu said:
Marquez destroyed Honda, now he'll do the same to Ducati in his quest for another title before retiring. He's going to do everything in his power to make sure Ducati develops for only him to create a bike that the other riders will struggle to ride. He'll lead Ducati the wrong direction and once he leaves, Ducati will find themselves in the position Honda is currently in.

Click to expand...

Even if he wanted to do that Gigi wouldn’t co-operate.

Nakamoto said years ahead that losing their bespoke ECU would cripple Honda.
 
michaelm said:
It was rumoured there was considerable impetus from Dorna including encouraging Rossi to move to have some competition for Honda.
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This might be possible, but as per Rossi’s biography, it was Davide Brivio who basically made it happen, chasing Rossi non stop including at his vacation spot in Ibiza until Rossi agreed to give Yamaha a moment’s attention. That, and the holier than thou attitude HRC had.

It’s quite an interesting narrative, the first time Rossi touched the M1 in the Yamaha garage, he had a “What have I done” moment, because the bike was basically held together with Duct tape and a prayer; a far cry compared to the work of art that was the RC211V.

It’s a minor miracle they managed what they did at Welkom 2004, given that Rossi wasn’t even allowed to test the WIP M1 in 2003.
 

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