2025 Silly Season

p4p1 said:

One thing I do think it shows is that, without his academy turning out excellent talent, Ducati aren't worried about upsetting Rossi. Before, I think they wanted him onside to some extent because the best young Italian talent was coming through his school. If they do indeed sign MM, as is the likely case, it also means distancing themselves from Rossi who, would more or less be banned from entering the Ducati pits.
This could push Rossi towards a Yamaha satellite team, if he hasn't already been pushed that way.

Fabio Q said that there was some big news coming for Yamaha but he couldn't share it yet. A VR46 satellite squad would be big news. Or a big Repsol sponsorship.

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Don’t know where this places Valentino and VR46, which was significantly funded by Dorna as i understand it, now Liberty media own the sport. Certainly somewhere though.

I am inclined to wait to see MM signed by the factory team before making too many prognostications in regard to Valentino and Ducati.

Sennas_Caress said:

You can say a lot about the man management of Ducati Corse, yet they are a dominating force never seen before.

Something must add up in order for them to be on their current level.

I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I'd put my money on Ducati managing to win five world championships in a row, and six as a constructor.

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They did one very smart thing and signed Gigi, and eventually started listening to him about riders as well. I still consider it likely Lorenzo made a contribution to sorting the thing so it would turn, and him being sacked is probably the last time management ran counter to Gigi.

I can’t see any massive expenditure by other teams to get their bikes on par with Ducati in the dying days of this formula, and they certainly appear to have enough riding talent to cover those remaining years as well.

There is a Ducati legacy in MotoGP going from 2003 until 2013. In that ten year period Ducati evolved from the Superbike champions to the MotoGP contenders.
They were good, yet not quite as good as Honda and Yamaha.

In 2014 they hired Dall'Igna, the master from WSBK, and after three seasons, they started winning.

The first steps were back to back races, then came the second in the team championship followed by the constructors' chamionship.
Then came Pecco's end of '21 and they have never looked back.

It was after Dall'Igna's axing of both Dovisioso and Petrucci that the team took off in a big way.
And with Dall'Igna's magic they've made the best bike ever. It's so good, even the old version is better than the latest spec of all their rivals...

Not sure Dall'Igna wasn't listened to earlier. He was there when they went in big with Lorenzo, instead of keeping the talented Iannone who clearly had his faults.
When Lorenzo wasn't providing the results needed to justify his salary, they went for a wingman for Dovi.
When Dovi didn't deliver, they went for what seemed at the time to be the long game, with focus on the next generation of riders.

Having all this in mind, I don't think that the VR team has any leverage or influence at Borgo Panigale.
I also can't see them being given any way in into that organisation.
They are customers, and Ducati know that every Italian rider will chose them over any other bike, if everything else is equal.

Marc has shown he knows how to play his hand. He has Jack high, everyone thinks he has pocket A's. If eventuates that he gets Ducati factory, must be seen as a master play. Jorge was a shoe in, and deservedly so. Marc has out strategised everybody. This play must rival strategic shenanigans of past.

Sennas_Caress said:

There is a Ducati legacy in MotoGP going from 2003 until 2013. In that ten year period Ducati evolved from the Superbike champions to the MotoGP contenders.
They were good, yet not quite as good as Honda and Yamaha.

In 2014 they hired Dall'Igna, the master from WSBK, and after three seasons, they started winning.

The first steps were back to back races, then came the second in the team championship followed by the constructors' chamionship.
Then came Pecco's end of '21 and they have never looked back.

It was after Dall'Igna's axing of both Dovisioso and Petrucci that the team took off in a big way.
And with Dall'Igna's magic they've made the best bike ever. It's so good, even the old version is better than the latest spec of all their rivals...

Not sure Dall'Igna wasn't listened to earlier. He was there when they went in big with Lorenzo, instead of keeping the talented Iannone who clearly had his faults.
When Lorenzo wasn't providing the results needed to justify his salary, they went for a wingman for Dovi.
When Dovi didn't deliver, they went for what seemed at the time to be the long game, with focus on the next generation of riders.

Having all this in mind, I don't think that the VR team has any leverage or influence at Borgo Panigale.
I also can't see them being given any way in into that organisation.
They are customers, and Ducati know that every Italian rider will chose them over any other bike, if everything else is equal.

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Sure Pecco deserves a lot of credit, his performances on the bike were what made it the bike everyone wanted to be on, which it wasn’t necessarily when he went to Ducati Corse. I don’t like Rossi, but give him plenty of credit for the Italian rider renaissance in GP bike racing, particularly Pecco who may well come to be regarded as one of the great ones.

I did get the impression that Ducati management gave up on Lorenzo before Gigi wanted to do so, and that he already decided the then current riders weren’t up to scratch fairly early on when a retired Casey Stoner jumped on his bike and immediately matched or was faster than the race riders.

michaelm said:

Sure Pecco deserves a lot of credit, his performances on the bike were what made it the bike everyone wanted to be on, which it wasn’t necessarily when he went to Ducati Corse. I don’t like Rossi, but give him plenty of credit for the renaissance of Italian riders in GP bike racing, particularly Pecco who may well come to be regarded as one of the great ones.

I did get the impression that Ducati management gave up on Lorenzo before Gigi wanted to do so, and that he already decided the then current riders weren’t up to scratch fairly early on when a retired Casey Stoner jumped on his bike and immediately matched or was faster than the race riders.

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Valentino establishing the VR Academy is something unique. He has given back, that is beyond doubt.

What I tried to show was how Ducati Corse has changed course on a few occasions, and so far, progressed well.

The pivot was the day Gigi entered Borgo Panigale.
Then came the point when they went from spending big, to spending on young talent.
Chosen their path well, Ducati has.

As a sidenote

The Japanese brands did spend about a decade building themselves up. They didn't manage to win against the MV Augusta though. They had to wait until MV pulled out of racing. It took the European brands 30 years to begin to re-establish themselves in the top class. Fifteen years on and they are reshuffling the old order. That was only possible through hard work, and plenty of good decisions.

It's difficult to remain at the top. Honda and Yamaha have both been able to retain their top spot with different riders. Not often though. Domination goes more hand in hand with one single invincible rider, you Marquez, Doohan or Rossi. Pecco might just be the next on that list of rider - factory combinations. He'll have this and two more seasons on the best bike on the grid.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/bastianini-set-to-ride-a-ktm-in-2025-motogp-season-/10619391/

bastianini looks set to move to KTM, who interestingly appear to be having 4 full factory RedBull branded bikes for next yr.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if Marquez signed for them now?!

#22 said:

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/bastianini-set-to-ride-a-ktm-in-2025-motogp-season-/10619391/

bastianini looks set to move to KTM, who interestingly appear to be having 4 full factory RedBull branded bikes for next yr.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if Marquez signed for them now?!

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They already have 4 factory bikes

Saffa said:

They already have 4 factory bikes

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The article appears to be saying there will be 4 full factory Red Bull KTM bikes. Tech3 may or may not be part of their plans.

Barbedwirebikerr said:

Marc has shown he knows how to play his hand. He has Jack high, everyone thinks he has pocket A's. If eventuates that he gets Ducati factory, must be seen as a master play. Jorge was a shoe in, and deservedly so. Marc has out strategised everybody. This play must rival strategic shenanigans of past.

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And therein lies the difference between Marquez and Vale. Both (if I may be a bit reductionist/cliche in my thinking) see themselves as having a bit of the Machiavelli gene. But Vale’s belief was fed by the sycophantic adoration of his fan base and Dorna’s bottom-feeding, ass-kissing commodification mentality, whereas Marquez’ is underpinned by an earned sense of self-belief, that supports a well-honed capacity for calculated risk both in racing and in contract negotiation. Its like Vale is playing checkers and Marquez is playing three dimensional chess.

Keshav said:

And therein lies the difference between Marquez and Vale. Both (if I may be a bit reductionist/cliche in my thinking) see themselves as having a bit of the Machiavelli gene. But Vale’s belief was fed by the sycophantic adoration of his fan base and Dorna’s bottom-feeding, ass-kissing commodification mentality, whereas Marquez’ is underpinned by an earned sense of self-belief, that supports a well-honed capacity for calculated risk both in racing and in contract negotiation. Its like Vale is playing checkers and Marquez is playing three dimensional chess.

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Let's see whether he has won first.

p4p1 said:

The article appears to be saying there will be 4 full factory Red Bull KTM bikes. Tech3 may or may not be part of their plans.

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Ah ok. I didn't see the whole article, as it's behind a pay wall.
I didn't know that was possible/allowed, especially after they were declined additional gris spots already

Ducati is where they are now because of Gigi, yes, but more so because the rules have favored them for how long now?

They had a big head start on tires and ECU to start with, that the Japanese bikes can't use...pretty big advantage imo.

michaelm said:

Let's see whether he has won first.

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Think positive Mate. I suspect its just a matter of ironing out the sponsorship details.

Wow, that went much quicker than expected.
Jörg is under massive pressure now because he knows his biggest chance to win the championship is this year. I'm not too optimistic that he'll be able to cope with that.

After those first seven rounds, combined sprints and long races, Ducati climbed 11 times in the highest podium step, 3 others for Aprilia.
If you focus on long races, only Americas GP escaped from Ducati domination

p4p1 said:

Fabio Q said that there was some big news coming for Yamaha but he couldn't share it yet. A VR46 satellite squad would be big news. Or a big Repsol sponsorship.

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New paint scheme....

Sennas_Caress said:

It was after Dall'Igna's axing of both Dovisioso and Petrucci that the team took off in a big way.
And with Dall'Igna's magic they've made the best bike ever. It's so good, even the old version is better than the latest spec of all their rivals...

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More so the improvement in the bike rather than a changing of riders

Sennas_Caress said:

When Lorenzo wasn't providing the results needed to justify his salary, they went for a wingman for Dovi.
When Dovi didn't deliver, they went for what seemed at the time to be the long game, with focus on the next generation of riders.

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I predicted that Lorenzo would do badly but he did even worse than I predicted in that first year, however he turned it around in the second year but too late to save his ride

Mrpurple said:

Ducati is where they are now because of Gigi

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This!!! There are many things he did but one that stands out is he got the team to make improvements without making determents to other aspects of the bike. Honda need to learn from Gigi

Anyway back to Silly season. Who do you think Pramac should try to get?

michaelm said:

Ducati Corse in MotoGP have always been ........./horrible at man management. It even goes back past Casey Stoner, and before their treatment of Casey sending Marco Melandri to a shrink rather than contemplating that their bike might not be perfect. Troy Bayliss for his one off race winning return in 2006 insisted on bringing his Ducati WSBK crew and wanted nothing to do with the Ducati Corse MotoGP personnel.

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I don't necessarily disagree that Ducati is ran by ......... but how have they miss treated Martin? They gave him factory support even though they chose another rider as their factory team. Enea was just as deserving at the time the decision was made. Now choosing a legend of the sport over him is another good decision by ducati. Its unfortunate for Martin but they have not treated him bad. They continued and would have continued to support him. I understand he desire to move on over it but Ducati has been good to him.

Barbedwirebikerr said:

Marc has shown he knows how to play his hand. He has Jack high, everyone thinks he has pocket A's. If eventuates that he gets Ducati factory, must be seen as a master play. Jorge was a shoe in, and deservedly so. Marc has out strategised everybody. This play must rival strategic shenanigans of past.

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If you leave out their names and match resume to resume, Jorge losses 100 out of 100 times. Martin may have been the deserving one but Marc was the better choice. Deserving a job doesn't not trump being more qualified for the job.

p4p1 said:

The article appears to be saying there will be 4 full factory Red Bull KTM bikes. Tech3 may or may not be part of their plans.

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Tech3 back to Yamaha