2020 myWorld Motorrad Grand Prix von Österreich

p4p1 said:

I’m just going to put it here. But engine wise how ...... are Yamaha? The engines are homologated for next season as well. Does this mean that if Yamaha has made a serious error in their engine design they still have to use the exact same design and components for next year?

Click to expand...

They've got a request open with the MSMA to allow them to replace the valves on their current engines.
This request will be allowed if Yamaha can prove that it's on the grounds of safety and not performance.

Ducati are ok with it (if you remember, Yamaha didn't oppose the Ducati rear wheel scoop when It first appeared - Ducati assist to be returning the favour)

Honda wants proof that it's for safety...

michaelm said:

(EDIT Rossi also questioned the safety of the corner as Simon Crafar did in the race telecast, and as Casey Stoner apparently did in 2016 as was previously posted. I have come to your point of view, although not intentionally reckless I am sure, Zarco has just been involved in too many of these incidents and his judgement/racecraft does come into question, as does Pol's for that matter for making the same error 2 weeks in a row. I do think MM is not as reckless as he was in regard to the safety of other riders if not his own safety, and I do think Rossi's attack on him a couple of years ago was unjustified).

Click to expand...

I do think that a distinction needs to be made between being aggressive, being dangerous and finally, being aggressive and dangerous. There has to be a reason why VR and MM for that matter, in all their years, have been involved in little or no spectacular crashes that an aggressive move on their part has created. They may punt, block pass, etc. However, they are both very skilled and know where to take the fight to the absolute limit. They each seem to have a sense of when it's OK to go for it, knowing that if it fails it will not lead to too much of an incident. I don't think this sort of thing is simply down to luck... not after so many years of riding at the bleeding edge.

In contrast, check out Zarco's incident record. Espargaro senior's sentiment reflects mine.... "It's very, very difficult. But on the other hands, it's always Zarco, it's always Zarco [involved in incidents]."

michaelm said:

My view and the view of Crafar, Stoner etc is that the speed differential is too great going into that corner.

Rossi probably did brake check MM at Argentina 2015, and Stoner when he put his bike down rather than plough into a Rossi which would have been in his interests at Laguna Seca 2008, to say nothing of Jerez 2010 or the famed Corkscrew incident itself where it was entirely in Stoner’s hands that he didn’t get T-boned at a fairly high speed after what was pretty much a lose after going into a corner too hot

Click to expand...

What I find interesting is that with MM and Rossi, there's invariably a way out of their aggressive antics with other riders. As a result, there is usually a rider complaining afterwards, rather than breathing a sigh of relief after a huge crash. JLo or Stoner may have had their moments where they comment on VRs aggression or feeling that he crossed the line, but I don't recall them claiming him dangerous.

p4p1 said:

Would you say that Zarco made a dangerous move? Take the speed out of it... Is the situation any different to Argentina 2015 when the rider in front took a line that the rider behind wasn't expecting? I thought it was the riders behind responsibility? Or does that only count if Rossi is in front and he or one of his protoge is behind?

Click to expand...

a) Technically, one could argue he did not. However, one could also argue that the risk was there and perhaps there was room for leaving the move for safer circumstances. We are now realising how many of the riders have commented about the danger on that part of the track.

b) We cannot and should not take the speed from it when comparing with other incidents. The speed had everything to do with the huge crash that occurred.

So the comparison falls flat IMO, and this is likely why the incident you're comparing it to didn't lead to a spectacular crash and this is the blind spot with Zarco to which I refer and argue. What's with all the awkward incidents over his relatively short MotoGP career?

You may ask what incidents I refer to, and I feel a bit motivated to look into them to better support my opinion, but it would take too much time and effort. I have felt this way about him a long time ago. The only difference is that initially, I thought him careless and not really taking due care with his fellow riders. Now, I think he genuinely lacks that extra awareness on the bleeding edge of speed and while fighting with the other riders. That extra element of judgement that goes with his ambition during fights to move up the field during a race. He's very brave and very daring.... above average on the grid, I think, but if he's going to be like that, he needs that extra awareness.

MM is a great example of a rider that can carve his way through his fellow riders without causing a major incident. A few may complain about his aggression.... but there's typically no incident. Note that I didn't say "never an incident", just typically no incidents, i.e., big crashes.

misfit said:

a) Technically, one could argue he did not. However, one could also argue that the risk was there and perhaps there was room for leaving the move for safer circumstances. We are now realising how many of the riders have commented about the danger on that part of the track.

b) We cannot and should not take the speed from it when comparing with other incidents. The speed had everything to do with the huge crash that occurred.

So the comparison falls flat IMO, and this is likely why the incident you're comparing it to didn't lead to a spectacular crash and this is the blind spot with Zarco to which I refer and argue. What's with all the awkward incidents over his relatively short MotoGP career?

You may ask what incidents I refer to, and I feel a bit motivated to look into them to better support my opinion, but it would take too much time and effort. I have felt this way about him a long time ago. The only difference is that initially, I thought him careless and not really taking due care with his fellow riders. Now, I think he genuinely lacks that extra awareness on the bleeding edge of speed and while fighting with the other riders. That extra element of judgement that goes with his ambition during fights to move up the field during a race. He's very brave and very daring.... above average on the grid, I think, but if he's going to be like that, he needs that extra awareness.

MM is a great example of a rider that can carve his way through his fellow riders without causing a major incident. A few may complain about his aggression.... but there's typically no incident. Note that I didn't say "never an incident", just typically no incidents, i.e., big crashes.

Click to expand...

Moto vudu,

You make my point having to find an incident in a FP session. You also need to highlight the entire sentence and read it again.

misfit said:

Moto vudu,

You make my point having to find an incident in a FP session. You also need to highlight the entire sentence and read it again.

Click to expand...

That FP incident is probably the worst in MotoGP history. Pure recklessness and disregard for safety.

you could make the argument that in this era of GP racing with the bikes being so close to each other in performance, a tenth of a second could separate the top 10, and the power of the bikes makes it very easy to destroy tires especially when off the line and or attempting a pass... all this means more riders taking more chances.

moto vudu said:

That FP incident is probably the worst in MotoGP history. Pure recklessness and disregard for safety.

Click to expand...

You don't seem to like MM and p4p1 doesn't seem to like VR. I get it. I got it a long time ago.

misfit said:

You don't seem to like MM and p4p1 doesn't seem to like VR. I get it. I got it a long time ago.

Click to expand...

Having to watch people beat a dead horse is an occupational hazard on this forum.

misfit said:

What I find interesting is that with MM and Rossi, there's invariably a way out of their aggressive antics with other riders. As a result, there is usually a rider complaining afterwards, rather than breathing a sigh of relief after a huge crash. JLo or Stoner may have had their moments where they comment on VRs aggression or feeling that he crossed the line, but I don't recall them claiming him dangerous.

Click to expand...

As I recall in his entire very long career Rossi has been involved in exactly one incident which caused an injury of any consequence to another rider, a broken leg I think, but I can’t even recall when It occurred and who it was. That can’t be coincidence as you say. Stoner did complain, and was pilloried for doing so, about Laguna Seca 2008, saying more or less that Rossi had an advantage because he basically knew Stoner would elect not to crash into him and would also manage to not do so. I thought he had a point, and it is perhaps one of the reasons why VR has 7 titles and Stoner 2, but no way does Rossi pull the Laguna Seca 2008 moves or the Jerez 2005 move on Gibernau if Elias is the other party. Stoner was also none too happy about Jerez 2010, although the risk there was to Stoner’s race and title hopes, and to Rossi’s own health if Stoner had not been able to avoid running over him. Rossi is a hypocrite imo for complaining about MM in the premier class at least, and for complaining about other riders including Elias.

With the current incident I agree at such a dangerous place on the track and such a dangerous speed Zarco has to be very sure about making the pass cleanly, and perhaps should not have attempted the pass there at all, particularly if Morbidelli had no bail out option. If Morbidelli was trying to re-pass I guess his judgement comes into question on the same grounds, position on the track and speed. I was watching live as well, and Crafar’s immediate question was whether the incident was the tail end of a passing manoeuvre.

Keshav said:

Having to watch people beat a dead horse is an occupational hazard on this forum.

Click to expand...

It is not exactly a dead horse in the context of Rossi again complaining about another rider’s behaviour, with the potential this brings for the rider concerned to be ostracised/vilified by his fanbase as history records for several rivals of Rossi’s as raised by p4p1, although I take Misfit’s point about the extreme danger involved with this incident and possible lack of a bailout option compared to most if not all incidents in which Rossi has been involved.

moto vudu said:

That FP incident is probably the worst in MotoGP history. Pure recklessness and disregard for safety.

Click to expand...

A totally indefensible incident for which he should have received a much more severe penalty, and for which his crew should have been sanctioned for sending him out in the circumstance. As I implied and misfit said, he isn’t reckless about the safety of other riders now and largely hasn’t been as a premier class rider, with you needing to go back to an incident in FP in the moto 2 class 10 years ago when he was 17 odd.

You have got to love this forum, it never fails to deliver.

Rossi avoids death by 1/100 of a second caused by an innocent he had no involvement in = Rossi is a massive .....

That's pretty awesome!

michaelm said:

It is not exactly a dead horse in the context of Rossi again complaining about another rider’s behaviour, with the potential this brings for the rider concerned to be ostracised/vilified by his fanbase as history records for several rivals of Rossi’s as raised by p4p1, although I take Misfit’s point about the extreme danger involved with this incident and possible lack of a bailout option compared to most if not all incidents in which Rossi has been involved.

Click to expand...

I get that. It's just that I think we're looking at a whole new generation of fans, and a new generation of riders, who've moved on as well. As Rossi's power as a rider is fading, so is his influence. Cult of personality fans are fickle as hell. They may not admit it, but the Rossifumi are looking for the next big thing, the big persona in whose glow they can bask. And the newer riders still respect him, but they see him being beaten at every race by kids their own age, and they're lining up for their turn to do the same. If Rossi bad-mouths them, it will be a largely impotent gesture.

Macca said:

You have got to love this forum, it never fails to deliver.

Rossi avoids death by 1/100 of a second caused by an innocent he had no involvement in = Rossi is a massive .....

That's pretty awesome!

Click to expand...

Assuming, and I'm not saying one way or the other, but just for the sake of argument, that it's a wildly accepted and universal truth that Rossi is a ...., that fact would not be ameliorated by virtue of his good fortune in not being struck by flying pile of wreckage. It would just mean he's a lucky .....

Macca said:

You have got to love this forum, it never fails to deliver.

Rossi avoids death by 1/100 of a second caused by an innocent he had no involvement in = Rossi is a massive .....

That's pretty awesome!

Click to expand...

Bike flies over Vinales’ head and he doesn’t make a .... of himself. Rossi on the other hand who thankfully wasn’t hurt.....

Little Walter said:

Assuming, and I'm not saying one way or the other, but just for the sake of argument, that it's a wildly accepted and universal truth that Rossi is a ...., that fact would not be ameliorated by virtue of his good fortune in not being struck by flying pile of wreckage. It would just mean he's a lucky .....

Click to expand...

I am hardly Rossi‘s biggest fan, but I think he is entitled to a gripe in this instance, particularly since his gripe correctly imo partly concerned the intrinsic danger of the corner, and he did also show balls of adamantium/titanium/whatever to go back out and ride a competitive race after the re-start. I struggle to think of an incident precipitated by him as potentially dangerous as this one in his career, which doesn’t apply to riders I favour far more than him including MM and even Stoner, the latter learning from the pile up due to his riding error in 2006 however. I am leaning to the view it was too dangerous to make the pass Zarco made at that point on the track, definitely so if Morbidelli had no bail out option. If he was trying an immediate re-pass at an even later point then Morbidelli also made a contributory error of judgement however imo, I am not sure Zarco was in a position to take any alternative line.

In general though Rossi, and MM, seem to be of the view that rules are for other people, and have taken advantage of the propensity of other more principled riders not to wish to be involved in collisions. Rossi complains about hard moves by others which MM basically doesn’t though. I would love to have seen Rossi attempt some of his admittedly rare more controversial moves on the likes of Mick Doohan rather than Gibernau or Stoner.

p4p1 said:

Bike flies over Vinales’ head and he doesn’t make a .... of himself. Rossi on the other hand who thankfully wasn’t hurt.....

Click to expand...

VR is a 7 time champ with a long career and experience. MV isn't. One has a driver academy with one of his graduates involved in a huge shunt that miraculously left no one seriously injured or dead. He is currently instructing/advising upcoming riders. This makes him very different from MV. He will feel inclined to comment on a lot of issues and the press will understandably approach him for his opinion as they now do with Dovi. I am not at all surprised Rossi had something to say about it and would have been disappointed actually, if he didn't. Some riders, and dare I say, most, will likely choose to be neutral about it knowing the potential consequence of not doing so. IOW's, they would rather not get publicly involved since it often then becomes political. Rossi will not, since he's in a position not to be and has experience with dealing with the consequence of taking an unpopular position. We have read Morbidelli's take on what happened.

VR repeatedly says he has no problem with aggressive riding and not surprisingly so since he himself is well known for his aggressive tactics. However, he speaks of a line, that if crossed, will lead to serious danger to other riders. So I understand him fully in that there should be respect for the safety and lives of the other riders while this doesn't negate aggression completely.

You see exactly what Rossi refers to when JLo engages Rossi and especially MM on track. JLo becomes distinctly more aggressive in his riding since if he doesn't, he will not win. However, like VR and MM, he's aware of where the line is and where his aggression inappropriately placed can lead to shunts with serious consequences. Aggression that is not only tempered by awareness but also skill. As we've seen over the years and are witnessing now, there is the occasional rider who's bravery isn't tamed by this awareness and his skill.

Mike, That’s the difference to me with Rossi and Marquez, Marquez doesn’t complain when others make hard passes on him. But we must also go back to where it started to be accepted that contact was part of racing. It wasn’t so long ago Rossi himself was calling Stoner and co soft for complaining about Simoncelli. He made plenty of passes that if they were done to him he would and has complained. He also defended Petrucci after one of the Espargaró brothers complained that he constantly makes contact, when Rossi was doing his best to get Marquez ejected from the sport after Argentina.

I don’t care that Rossi is ruthless, just like I don’t care that Marquez does. It’s a problem when you can’t take what you give. I’m sure if the sport was as close as it is now with spec tyres and so much parity between factories Rossi would have made even more questionable moves when he was younger. He destroyed Nakagamis season last year but isn’t it funny we never heard all that much about it?