2019 - Brno - Monster Energy Grand Prix České republiky

AJV80 said:

I wouldn't say Jorge surpassed Dovi at Ducati but when Jorge was having a good weekend on the Ducati and had it dialled in he did seem to be able to dominate the race more so than Dovi could. Maybe Ducati see Jorges potential in that aspect and think he could better take the fight to Marc than Dovi could??

If you put Dovi and Petrucci on the Honda I don't think they would be able to beat Marc but if you put Marc on the Ducati I feel he could beat both of them... Ducati's battle is not with Honda but with Marc (Jorge shows that), the Ducati would have to be an unbelievably better bike than whatever Marc is riding to even give them a chance of winning a title against him. With control tyres, standardised electronics and software the performance gap between different bikes is getting smaller and harder to achieve (wings, wheel covers, brake diffusers, holeshot devices still isn't enough) the chances of them being able to build a bike thats head and shoulders above whatever Marc is riding is slim to none.

If Ducati want a championship they need a rider of Marc's calibre which I don't think there currently is in the MotoGP field...Maybe they think Jorge has a better chance of being able to do that than Dovi or Petrux. I think their best chance of clinching a championship would be to approach Marc with an open chequebook.

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I reckon the operative word here is dominate. The sense of the rider having absolute confidence the way world champions are known to have. And I have to say that is not something that Dovi exudes. He seems more like a guy who almost wins in spite of his perceived shortcomings. Tho - I will say that Hayden never really demonstrated that quality either. He was such a boy scout. Fans of the sport are really attracted to that quality; evidenced by the long time reverence for Schwantz who only ever won that single championship. Dovi's style or modus seems to be more calculated in the way that he doesn't put a lot of energy into quali and saves his tires, harrying the lead rider, toting up Marquez's minor "weak spots" till towards the end of the race.

Actually . . . I think Ducati's battle is with Ducati; their inability to make the bike turn. If they hire Marc they'll get that championship, but that makes for the same paradigm as with Stoner - a very expensive band-aid that obscures the bike's defect which never gets properly addressed.

Keshav said:

I reckon the operative word here is dominate. The sense of the rider having absolute confidence the way world champions are known to have. And I have to say that is not something that Dovi exudes. He seems more like a guy who almost wins in spite of his perceived shortcomings. Tho - I will say that Hayden never really demonstrated that quality either. He was such a boy scout. Fans of the sport are really attracted to that quality; evidenced by the long time reverence for Schwantz who only ever won that single championship. Dovi's style or modus seems to be more calculated in the way that he doesn't put a lot of energy into quali and saves his tires, harrying the lead rider, toting up Marquez's minor "weak spots" till towards the end of the race.

Actually . . . I think Ducati's battle is with Ducati; their inability to make the bike turn. If they hire Marc they'll get that championship, but that makes for the same paradigm as with Stoner - a very expensive band-aid that obscures the bike's defect which never gets properly addressed.

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Without wanting to get into cod psychology I have had the thought that you and Jumkie (when he was still here) saw Dovi somewhat as the new Nicky.

You underestimate Nicky imo. He was a great superbike rider, and in 2006 imo competing in a motogp formula which suited him really got it together against one of the most competitive fields in premier class gp bike racing history and rode a great consistent season which HRC’s less than full support and even a Pedrosa torpedo could not derail.

No psychology here. Just observation of the way riders express themselves in interviews and corresponding traits playing out in their race-craft. You don’t have to be Freud to discern which riders exude confidence.

Why some of you assume Marc would dominate on another bike? His current style suits the RCV, not a longer wheelbase bike like the Ducati and Yamaha. Could he adapt his style to any bike? Maybe, but that's something he would need to prove that he's capable of. He could struggle worse on the Ducati than Lorenzo initially did for all we know.

His current style suits the RCV

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Marques has style? How do you know that? Greatest riders don't have style restriction, they ride every bike as it needs to be ridden.

Segfault said:

Marques has style? How do you know that? Greatest riders don't have style restriction, they ride every bike as it needs to be ridden.

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Of course he has a style, they all have a style. We don't know how well Marc will adapt to a different bike, nothing he does on the RCV proves he would be just as fast on a Ducati or Yamaha. The way he can feel the limit of the front tire on the RCV probably wouldn't transfer exactly the same on another bike.

I would like to see Marc ride a different bike and showcase his ability to adapt his style (if he can) to a bike that has to be ridden a different way.

moto vudu said:

Why some of you assume Marc would dominate on another bike? His current style suits the RCV, not a longer wheelbase bike like the Ducati and Yamaha. Could he adapt his style to any bike? Maybe, but that's something he would need to prove that he's capable of. He could struggle worse on the Ducati than Lorenzo initially did for all we know.

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Remember when Nicky announced his moving to Ducati and everybody was all "Oooh Nicky's a dirt track, slidin' around guy; he'll kick ... on the Duc". And of course never happened. But then Nicky was no Stoner.

2005 Stoner, who did as well as anyone could hope for on mis-matched Michelin left-overs with no power to decide on which tires he wanted, while on the Honda - blew everybody's mind on the Ducati, winning convincingly, in a way that no other previous Ducati rider had; so a pretty strong indication he'd blow everybody away on the HRC bike. And he did.

Marquez (despite the hugely antipathetic fan consensus here at the time) during his time in Moto 2 was clearly a phenom truly walking away from a field of equal bikes like it was a stroll in the park. Even so his first year domination was pretty shocking. But after all this time, the evidence of his mastery is impossible to miss. When you watch the way he does saves on a regular basis - you can't help but know, this is a guy who adapts, and does it on-the-fly. He'd make good use of the Ducati power, and stability under braking, no problem. I can't imagine who you think is better, tho if I had to hazard a guess . . .

Keshav said:

Remember when Nicky announced his moving to Ducati and everybody was all "Oooh Nicky's a dirt track, slidin' around guy; he'll kick ... on the Duc". And of course never happened. But then Nicky was no Stoner.

2005 Stoner, who did as well as anyone could hope for on mis-matched Michelin left-overs with no power to decide on which tires he wanted, while on the Honda - blew everybody's mind on the Ducati, winning convincingly, in a way that no other previous Ducati rider had; so a pretty strong indication he'd blow everybody away on the HRC bike. And he did.

Marquez (despite the hugely antipathetic fan consensus here at the time) during his time in Moto 2 was clearly a phenom truly walking away from a field of equal bikes like it was a stroll in the park. Even so his first year domination was pretty shocking. But after all this time, the evidence of his mastery is impossible to miss. When you watch the way he does saves on a regular basis - you can't help but know, this is a guy who adapts, and does it on-the-fly. He'd make good use of the Ducati power, and stability under braking, no problem. I can't imagine who you think is better, tho if I had to hazard a guess . . .

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Marc is able to make those saves and push to the limit and beyond because of the feedback he's getting from the RCV and the overall balance of the bike (combined with the electronics). A different bike will provide different levels of feedback (probably less than he's currently used to) and he would need to demonstrate that he's able to overcome the differences and continue to win. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I'll never say he can until he proves that he can.

moto vudu said:

Marc is able to make those saves and push to the limit and beyond because of the feedback he's getting from the RCV and the overall balance of the bike (combined with the electronics). A different bike will provide different levels of feedback (probably less than he's currently used to) and he would need to demonstrate that he's able to overcome the differences and continue to win. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I'll never say he can until he proves that he can.

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This is the umpteenth rehashing of the old Valeban meme that amounted to: It's not Stoner. It's all the bike".

Rossifumi are all still waiting for a second coming of the Tavulia Messiah and a 10th championship, but can't bring themselves to acknowledge Marquez's potential to exceed his record. Some things never change.

Keshav said:

This the upteenth rehashing of the old Valeban meme that amounted to: It's not Stoner. It's all the bike".

Rossifumi are all still waiting for a second coming of the Tavulia Messiah and a 10th championship, but can't bring themselves to acknowledge Marquez's potential to exceed his record. Some things never change.

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It's not all the bike, it's Marc's skills + the RCV that's been developed for his unique style and abilities. Marc + M1 or Marc + GP20 may not be the same formula for success. You're trying to turn this into some kind of Rossi debate because you cannot really argue that you know for a fact that Marquez can dominate on another bike. You may be shocked if Marc does eventually decide to switch bikes that he could struggle to find speed.

moto vudu said:

It's not all the bike, it's Marc's skills + the RCV that's been developed for his unique style and abilities. Marc + M1 or Marc + GP20 may not be the same formula for success. You're trying to turn this into some kind of Rossi debate because you cannot really argue that you know for a fact that Marquez can dominate on another bike. You may be shocked if Marc does eventually decide to switch bikes that he could struggle to find speed.

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Not saying it's "fact". But to anyone who's watched this guy as long as we all have (and that's including you) - the educated postulate says he would do it. Not actually daring you to put up money . . . but asking you to ask yourself; If you had to bet everything on his success or failure on the Duc, would you bet against him?

So the guy who adapted from a moto2 bike to a motogp bike and won a championship in his first year, rode the 16, 17, 18 and 19 bikes in quite different ways because of their relative strengths and weaknesses to the field couldn’t adapt to a bike requires him to ride in the same or similar ways that he has had to ride previously to win?

He wouldn’t succeed at KTM or Aprilia but that has nothing to do with his talent.

Keshav said:

Not saying it's "fact". But to anyone who's watched this guy as long as we all have (and that's including you) - the educated postulate says he would do it. Not actually daring you to put up money . . . but asking you to ask yourself; If you had to bet everything on his success or failure on the Duc, would you bet against him?

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I wouldn't bet that Marc would win a championship his first year on the Duc.

moto vudu said:

I wouldn't bet that Marc would win a championship his first year on the Duc.

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I would haha. I mean really who looks strong enough to challenge him? He rode around with one arm flapping around in it socket last year and still made everyone else look like they were in the wrong class.

ratdeal said:

I would haha. I mean really who looks strong enough to challenge him? He rode around with one arm flapping around in it socket last year and still made everyone else look like they were in the wrong class.

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I just don't see him adapting to the Duc fast enough to win the first year. I also think he would DNF too much trying to push the bike and not being able to save it like he can the RCV.

Hypothetically speaking who is fast and consistent enough to capitalise upon his early season adaption? In my view he would already have a race win or two under his belt and a few podiums by Brno.

He is clearly the most adaptable rider on the grid in my opinion. I just don't see that there is anyone out there who can string together enough wins to dominate before Marc truly arrives in the 2nd half of the season.

ratdeal said:

Hypothetically speaking who is fast and consistent enough to capitalise upon his early season adaption? In my view he would already have a race win or two under his belt and a few podiums by Brno.

He is clearly the most adaptable rider on the grid in my opinion. I just don't see that there is anyone out there who can string together enough wins to dominate before Marc truly arrives in the 2nd half of the season.

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Possibly Lorenzo if he's back on a Duc. I'd like to see Quartararo on a factory M1, I think he could be a challenge. I agree that currently Marc is the only rider showing great consistency.

ratdeal said:

Hypothetically speaking who is fast and consistent enough to capitalise upon his early season adaption? In my view he would already have a race win or two under his belt and a few podiums by Brno.

He is clearly the most adaptable rider on the grid in my opinion. I just don't see that there is anyone out there who can string together enough wins to dominate before Marc truly arrives in the 2nd half of the season.

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moto vudu said:

Possibly Lorenzo if he's back on a Duc. I'd like to see Quartararo on a factory M1, I think he could be a challenge. I agree that currently Marc is the only rider showing great consistency.

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Possibly Lorenzo? Too late. He didn't accomplish .... in the first season and crashed a lot in the 2nd. You only get one first season in anything.

As great Stoner fan as I am - I easily acknowledge Marquez's superiority. And if Stoner could pull it off on the ...... 2007 bike, Marquez could do it on the more powerful and more refined 2020 bike. The math adds up.

moto vudu said:

I just don't see him adapting to the Duc fast enough to win the first year. I also think he would DNF too much trying to push the bike and not being able to save it like he can the RCV.

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It’s all speculation until he does it, that’s true. But If Jorge has shown anything its that it is taking him longer to tame the RCV compared to the GP17 and 18. Yes everyone has a different riding style and the Honda has been largely developed around Marc’s needs. But If I had to compare the two bikes based on Jorge performance being new to them both and the results of others riding the same bikes... I’d say the Ducati is the more forgiving of the two bikes from a riders perspective. Marc also seems a rider able to adapt to change well hence his consistent performance across classes, different iterations of the same bike, different tyres and changing track conditions.

I’d love to see Marc on a Ducati and think if anyone is capable of winning a championship on it in their first year it would be him.

Keshav said:

Frankly - I don't see how Lorenzo can be said to have surpassed Dovi on the Ducati. Remember, who it was that was lead rider during the worst of the fallow years at Ducati (after Rossi ...... off) working with Gigi to turn the bike around. Lorenzo (and other Duc riders as well) benefitted greatly from all the testing and feedback from Dovi that made the bike as capable as it is now.

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Sorry Kesh but I reckon this development side that is attributed to Dovi is somewhat of a misnomer.

Yes, no doubt he had ideas and contributed feedback for the machine, some likely improved and some that were likely consigned to the scrapheap of experience.

But it is unfailingly true to also state that the Ducati improved largely when Gabbarini returned, with Stoner as the test rider but I feel more importantly with Lorenzo as the main team rider.

If we look at the facts, Dovi had only had 1 win, 12 seconds and 4 thirds in his 4 years on the factory bike prior to the arrival of Gabbarini who I feel is the unsung one here. Those statistics match those that have seen many people call for other riders heads for years (Pedrosa anyone). Now, in 2017 not just did Gabbarini return but Lorenzo came and in the ensuing 2 years, Dovi's results peaked such that he was now a contender (10xfirst, 17xsecond and 2xthird) so he more than doubled his return when JL was present.

JL has now gone and Dovi on a year to date has 1xwin and 5 second places which is not bad, but also not that which he was achieving with Lorenzo present in the team.

For mine, Dovi peaked on the back of the work done by Gabbarini, Lorenzo and lesser to Stoner with the test riding which put a rocket up them when Stoner was faster .

If we are to criticise the developmental skills/contributions of a Rossi as we do in this place all based on decreasing results, the same set of rules should apply and for me, I see Dovi as a benficiary of others good work that elicited a drive in him.

May well be harsh, but he is no Lorenzo and I personally suspect that Lorenzo this year on a Ducati would have placed any doubt into the garbage