2019 - Brno - Monster Energy Grand Prix České republiky

Gaz · Aug 9, 2019

Keshav said:
2006 Stoner, who did as well as anyone could hope for on mis-matched Michelin left-overs with no power to decide on which tires he wanted, while on the Honda - blew everybody's mind on the Ducati, winning convincingly, in a way that no other previous Ducati rider had; so a pretty strong indication he'd blow everybody away on the HRC bike. And he did.

Fixed it for you Kesh.

In 2005 CS was on a 250cc

Gaz · Aug 9, 2019

moto vudu said:
It's not all the bike, it's Marc's skills + the RCV that's been developed for his unique style and abilities. Marc + M1 or Marc + GP20 may not be the same formula for success. You're trying to turn this into some kind of Rossi debate because you cannot really argue that you know for a fact that Marquez can dominate on another bike. You may be shocked if Marc does eventually decide to switch bikes that he could struggle to find speed.

Dont disagree with any of this as like all discussions, it is hypothetical until it happens.

I, like you wonder how adaptable Marquez is and would be after so many years on the one bike that has been very developed around him and no other as were he to move elsewhere it is a start from scratch situation and as we have seen with Lorenzo, Rossi and even Zarco, results are not guaranteed to translate.

Now I fully realise that he is persona non-grata here to a degree but we saw the capability of a Stoner to jump off the Ducati and immediately be super quick on the Honda so we had that answer, but would he have achieved on a Suzuki, Yamaha etc is an open question (not debating), as we can only judge based on what we see.

michaelm · Aug 9, 2019

moto vudu said:
Of course he has a style, they all have a style. We don't know how well Marc will adapt to a different bike, nothing he does on the RCV proves he would be just as fast on a Ducati or Yamaha. The way he can feel the limit of the front tire on the RCV probably wouldn't transfer exactly the same on another bike.

I would like to see Marc ride a different bike and showcase his ability to adapt his style (if he can) to a bike that has to be ridden a different way.

Of course we won’t know unless he tries, but although like him Rossi prior to Ducati dominated on every bike he had ridden, MM looks to have a riding style more like Stoner’s than Rossi’s, so if I am to speculate which is what we do on here another somewhat fractious bike with a V4 engine is unlikely to be his Achilles’ heel imo, while the GP 11 was totally different than anything Rossi had encountered. I think the fair thing is to not second guess that a guy with MM’s record might fail on a different bike while he is actually engaged in such a stellar run; the attitude to Rossi changed when he did actually fail on a different bike, the question was not raised before then.

Keshav · Aug 10, 2019

Gaz said:
Sorry Kesh but I reckon this development side that is attributed to Dovi is somewhat of a misnomer.

Yes, no doubt he had ideas and contributed feedback for the machine, some likely improved and some that were likely consigned to the scrapheap of experience.

But it is unfailingly true to also state that the Ducati improved largely when Gabbarini returned, with Stoner as the test rider but I feel more importantly with Lorenzo as the main team rider.

If we look at the facts, Dovi had only had 1 win, 12 seconds and 4 thirds in his 4 years on the factory bike prior to the arrival of Gabbarini who I feel is the unsung one here. Those statistics match those that have seen many people call for other riders heads for years (Pedrosa anyone). Now, in 2017 not just did Gabbarini return but Lorenzo came and in the ensuing 2 years, Dovi's results peaked such that he was now a contender (10xfirst, 17xsecond and 2xthird) so he more than doubled his return when JL was present.

JL has now gone and Dovi on a year to date has 1xwin and 5 second places which is not bad, but also not that which he was achieving with Lorenzo present in the team.

For mine, Dovi peaked on the back of the work done by Gabbarini, Lorenzo and lesser to Stoner with the test riding which put a rocket up them when Stoner was faster .

If we are to criticise the developmental skills/contributions of a Rossi as we do in this place all based on decreasing results, the same set of rules should apply and for me, I see Dovi as a benficiary of others good work that elicited a drive in him.

May well be harsh, but he is no Lorenzo and I personally suspect that Lorenzo this year on a Ducati would have placed any doubt into the garbage

Gaz

I totally get the concept of the rider essentially just giving feedback and have never subscribed to the idea that a rider is "developing" a bike. My point is that an uncomplaining Dovi spent a lot of time on a much less than ideal Ducati doing the donkey work, while primadonna Lorenzo came in, bitching and moaning all the time yet benefited from all that work and had a few spurts of competitiveness.

The fact that Dovi looked better when Lorenzo was on the team I think is largely coincidence. From where I sit, it looks like Ducati has not really advanced this year, whereas HRC very clearly have done so.

michaelm · Aug 10, 2019

Keshav said:
Gaz

I totally get the concept of the rider essentially just giving feedback and have never subscribed to the idea that a rider is "developing" a bike. My point is that an uncomplaining Dovi spent a lot of time on a much less than ideal Ducati doing the donkey work, while primadonna Lorenzo came in, bitching and moaning all the time yet benefited from all that work and had a few spurts of competitiveness.

The fact that Dovi looked better when Lorenzo was on the team I think is largely coincidence. From where I sit, it looks like Ducati has not really advanced this year, whereas HRC very clearly have done so.

Three premier class titles and two 250 titles perhaps gives more justification for being a Prima Donna than a single 125 title, and a Prima Donna is exactly what Dovi looks like to me recently. I am not in the habit of quoting Valentino Rossi, but he did once remark, admittedly perhaps as a response to something he misunderstood from Dovi, that Dovi had never done anything.

Keshav · Aug 10, 2019

michaelm said:
Three premier class titles and two 250 titles perhaps gives more justification for being a Prima Donna than a single 125 title, and a Prima Donna is exactly what Dovi looks like to me recently. I am not in the habit of quoting Valentino Rossi, but he did once remark, admittedly perhaps as a response to something he misunderstood from Dovi, that Dovi had never done anything.

Marquez has accomplished much more in a shorter time and shows no signs of Prima donna behavior that I’ve seen. Given Lorenzo’s performance over the last three seasons a bit of humility would definitely be in order.

ratdeal · Aug 10, 2019

Keshav said:
Marquez has accomplished much more in a shorter time and shows no signs of Prima donna behavior that I’ve seen. Given Lorenzo’s performance over the last three seasons a bit of humility would definitely be in order.

When you are arguably the fastest rider in history I wouldn't expect to have to throw my toys out of the pram to get what I want.

When you have been playing second fiddle to who was arguably the last fastest rider in history despite often being the quicker rider, not to mention winning titles, you get used to having to kick and scream to get yourself heard. Learnt behaviour due to the environment he cut his teeth in.

Keshav · Aug 10, 2019

ratdeal said:
When you are arguably the fastest rider in history I wouldn't expect to have to throw my toys out of the pram to get what I want.

When you have been playing second fiddle to who was arguably the last fastest rider in history despite often being the quicker rider, not to mention winning titles, you get used to having to kick and scream to get yourself heard. Learnt behaviour due to the environment he cut his teeth in.

Not learned behaviour (IMHO). He was an arrogant little .... back in his 250 days.

Segfault · Aug 10, 2019

Yeah, that's the mob treatment. When Dovi entertained us by out-maneuvering Marques everybody was full of praise - that's the professor! Now he hasn't done anything special for a while - little .... he is.

ratdeal · Aug 10, 2019

Keshav said:
Not learned behaviour (IMHO). He was an arrogant little .... back in his 250 days.

By all accounts his dad is a ....... prick.

Theres a documentary feature on the motogp website that is actually quite sad, but gives real insight to Jorge's character. Things like being forced to practice minibike alone with only his dad for company and being told to celebrate with his "fans" in the stands. The stands were empty and the "fans" were imaginary. Poor chap should have been making friends and enemies with others his age, not acting out the fantasies of his grown ... dad.

Gaz · Aug 10, 2019

Keshav said:
Gaz

I totally get the concept of the rider essentially just giving feedback and have never subscribed to the idea that a rider is "developing" a bike. My point is that an uncomplaining Dovi spent a lot of time on a much less than ideal Ducati doing the donkey work, while primadonna Lorenzo came in, bitching and moaning all the time yet benefited from all that work and had a few spurts of competitiveness.

The fact that Dovi looked better when Lorenzo was on the team I think is largely coincidence. From where I sit, it looks like Ducati has not really advanced this year, whereas HRC very clearly have done so.

Totallay understand your side, just fully disagree as for me I would not say that the Ducati was making forward progress until Gabbarini and Lorenzo returned.

Sure it won a race or 2 in 2016 and the overall results had improved slightly, but that is only slightly and should be happening with year on year factory driven development.

To me the proof is in the results.

Lorenzo leaves Yamaha - who have struggled since

Lorenzo heads to Ducati - Gabbarini arrives - Ducati suddenly look like they have a chance at the world title only with Dovi, not Lorenzo who takes a full year to start to get comfortable and then in second year shows what he can do. Slow, absolutely. Disappointing, moreso but he showed that he wast he man. It was in this time we also started to see the 'un-melting' of the ice cool Dovi as he was challenged from internal.

Lorenzo leaves Ducati who have seemingly struggled since with a reduced number of podiums but still a couple of wins. May be to early to call it a failed season by comparison to last year, and certainly there has been some bad luck but for mine (and as an Aussie it pains me to type this), but for mine Petrucci has looked more likely - he just needs a bit more race smarts at the front.

Now is where it gets ugly as Lorenzo is again miserable on the Honda (first year) which has bitten and hurt him. But here is also where I see a different story s at Ducati he was bought there for race wins and titles as they wanted a world title so they worked with him to get him the bike he needed. Honda have that champion, an even better one so they are less likely to work with JL and change their bike as dramatically as Ducati did for him, so possibly they will call a bluff.

I totally get that Dovi had a few good years on a bike but I honestly do not see that he played as big a part as Lorenzo, Gabbarini and to a lesser extent Stoner's rocket in tests.

I woudl actually say that if Dovi were a running athlete, based on his 2016 - 2017 improvements he would have experienced far more drug tests such was the significant up shift (not suggesting or insinuating here but comparison to other sports)

Keshav · Aug 10, 2019

Segfault said:
Yeah, that's the mob treatment. When Dovi entertained us by out-maneuvering Marques everybody was full of praise - that's the professor! Now he hasn't done anything special for a while - little .... he is.

Read it again. The little prick description is not of Dovi. It's Lorenzo.

Keshav · Aug 10, 2019

Gaz said:
Totallay understand your side, just fully disagree as for me I would not say that the Ducati was making forward progress until Gabbarini and Lorenzo returned.

Sure it won a race or 2 in 2016 and the overall results had improved slightly, but that is only slightly and should be happening with year on year factory driven development.

To me the proof is in the results.

Lorenzo leaves Yamaha - who have struggled since

Lorenzo heads to Ducati - Gabbarini arrives - Ducati suddenly look like they have a chance at the world title only with Dovi, not Lorenzo who takes a full year to start to get comfortable and then in second year shows what he can do. Slow, absolutely. Disappointing, moreso but he showed that he wast he man. It was in this time we also started to see the 'un-melting' of the ice cool Dovi as he was challenged from internal.

Lorenzo leaves Ducati who have seemingly struggled since with a reduced number of podiums but still a couple of wins. May be to early to call it a failed season by comparison to last year, and certainly there has been some bad luck but for mine (and as an Aussie it pains me to type this), but for mine Petrucci has looked more likely - he just needs a bit more race smarts at the front.

Now is where it gets ugly as Lorenzo is again miserable on the Honda (first year) which has bitten and hurt him. But here is also where I see a different story s at Ducati he was bought there for race wins and titles as they wanted a world title so they worked with him to get him the bike he needed. Honda have that champion, an even better one so they are less likely to work with JL and change their bike as dramatically as Ducati did for him, so possibly they will call a bluff.

I totally get that Dovi had a few good years on a bike but I honestly do not see that he played as big a part as Lorenzo, Gabbarini and to a lesser extent Stoner's rocket in tests.

I woudl actually say that if Dovi were a running athlete, based on his 2016 - 2017 improvements he would have experienced far more drug tests such was the significant up shift (not suggesting or insinuating here but comparison to other sports)

Again . . . I don't correlate Yamaha's downturn with the loss of Lorenzo. Just coincidence. It's a pattern with the big companies where they have a few really killer years and then the engineers lose the thread for a while. And were they not having financial issues? I think Yamaha R&D lost a lot of steam in the wake of losing much of their sponsorship money when Rossi was at Ducati. And of course there's the common perception that it was always Rossi's specs that Yamaha were focused on; or so the Powerslide cognescenti all insisted.

I suspect in the long run our (yours and mine) personal preferences for given riders may color our perceptions on all this. Nobody can truly say they are 100% objective.

michaelm · Aug 10, 2019

Keshav said:
Read it again. The little prick description is not of Dovi. It's Lorenzo.

You called Lorenzo a Prima Donna, I did actually call Dovi a Prima Donna so I plead guilty to the accusation.

Both of them are Prima Donnas imo, but one has won 3 titles in one of which he beat the guy who is probably the greatest rider of all time, and in another in which he was defeated by the margin MM gained from a repeat of Rossi’s Gibernau move at Jerez, while the other seems to think running MM vaguely close for 1 season gives him status similar to the top 10 all time guys in the field. I don’t recall Randy Mamola having similar attitude, and he ran second several times with all time greats in the field.

Maybe Jorge is past his best, and I still think the most likely outcome is him retiring as was said in the coverage of practice which I watched yesterday. You say the riders are irrelevant to development, but which of them was most responsible for the improvement of the bike was reported widely to be a major point of contention between the two. By your own argument the guy most important to the bike in Gigi seems to disagree with you both about the unimportance of the rider leading development and in preferring Lorenzo to Dovi for Ducati in general.

I have no problem with an assessment that Jorge has always been a prick and continues to be one. I also agree that Dovi has been less Diva like than most over his career, which does not preclude him having become one now just as you argue that Jorge being good in the past doesn’t necessarily make him good now.

michaelm · Aug 10, 2019

Keshav said:
Marquez has accomplished much more in a shorter time and shows no signs of Prima donna behavior that I’ve seen. Given Lorenzo’s performance over the last three seasons a bit of humility would definitely be in order.

I agreed with Jumkie’s dubbing of MM as MurderMarc and questioning whether he had autistic tendencies when he was a teenager, it was hard to disagree after the Willairot incident in particular.

Now he has matured and seems to care more about the safety of other riders and perhaps his own I find his attitude in general refreshing, saying it all on the track, perhaps more like Hailwood reportedly was than several other greats, and his forbearance/ability to be undaunted by en masse vilification when the target of the Valeban and their hero was one of the things which really convinced me about him; my own attitude to Rossi has returned to the attitude I had when he first returned to Yamaha btw.

I like my racing heroes warts and all, like Stoner, to some extent Doohan whom I imagine Alex Criville considered to be a total prick, and Jorge. To each his own as you say elsewhere.

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