2017 Gran Premio Red Bull de España

danski said:

Oh yes it is, Rossi and Viñales didn't just wake up one morning and lose their ability to ride. They are both singing the same song about the limitations of the bike and what they need.
If Yamaha pull their collective finger out and get a pro in who can decipher the black box we will have two more competitors.

Click to expand...

Wellllllll, I guess Lorenzo didn't suddenly lose his ability to ride, either, except his teammate almost won the championship on the same bike. I guess Rossi didn't lose his ability when he was at Ducati, but it sure looked like it compared to Stoner. I don't think MV is as good as advertised and perhaps Rossi, like Lorenzo, really isn't that good of an adapter. I thought he did great going from Honda to Yamaha, but perhaps we were all fooled and the Yamaha was better than believed.

I do wish we could swap riders around on bikes and see what happens. My bet is you would still have to beat Marquez on a current Yamaha to get a podium. And you would still have to pass Zarco, if he was on a Honda. Same goes for Dovizioso. My opinions, of course.

Marquez looks awesome. He and the bike are in perfect sync.

The Ducatis were impressive at a bogey track.

The 2016 Yamaha with Rossi blitzed the field here. Their subsequent results here (and increasingly, elsewhere) have been poor as Ducati and Honda adapted to the spec ECU. It aptly demonstrates how much of modern MotoGP depends on electronics.

I'm always for dumbing down the ECUs to give the riders more control, but I suspect I'm in the minority.

The crash was a racing incident, though I think Pedrosa could've been a little more careful to ensure that his pass stuck, but I wouldn't go as far as placing the blame on him.

Iamapony said:

Wellllllll, I guess Lorenzo didn't suddenly lose his ability to ride, either, except his teammate almost won the championship on the same bike. I guess Rossi didn't lose his ability when he was at Ducati, but it sure looked like it compared to Stoner. I don't think MV is as good as advertised and perhaps Rossi, like Lorenzo, really isn't that good of an adapter. I thought he did great going from Honda to Yamaha, but perhaps we were all fooled and the Yamaha was better than believed.

I do wish we could swap riders around on bikes and see what happens. My bet is you would still have to beat Marquez on a current Yamaha to get a podium. And you would still have to pass Zarco, if he was on a Honda. Same goes for Dovizioso. My opinions, of course.

Click to expand...

At the time of the Vinales/Yamaha signing, I voiced my opinion that it wasn't a good signing because MV was not as good as people thought he was. Yes he won on the GSX-RR, but I felt that iteration of the bike was way better than people realized. Espargaro was okay on it, though I think he's done fairly well on the Aprilia all things considered.

The riders you mentioned (Rossi and Lorenzo) are not good adapters if they don't have a bike that suits their style. Marquez on the other hand, while not having ridden anything but the Honda, is highly adaptable as he won back to back titles with a screamer engine and then a big bang engine, to say nothing of how he makes the bike work in unfavorable conditions. I still think back to that Sachsenring wet race when he pitted early to go onto slicks when the track was still wet and barely had a dry racing line. You had the group of Rossi, Dovi, and a couple of others trying to kill each other by staying out, and Marquez made what seemed like an insane bike/tire switch. He then proceeded to demolish the field. The true adaptable rider is far and few IMO. They come along once in a generation or so. Eddie Lawson was one of them, Mike Hailwood another. You'd be hard pressed though to name too many riders that fit the bill. And when I say adaptable I mean guys who can actually win championships under adverse circumstances.

My opinion personally is if you put Marquez on the M1 or the Desmosedici, he would win the world title. I really want to see him on the Ducati more than anything as his aggressive physical style would be perfect for that bike. It's why Lorenzo is failing so badly because his riding style just isn't for that bike as we know, and he cannot adapt to it because he isn't, nor has ever been a physical type rider.

RCV600RR said:

Marquez looks awesome. He and the bike are in perfect sync.

The Ducatis were impressive at a bogey track.

The 2016 Yamaha with Rossi blitzed the field here. Their subsequent results here (and increasingly, elsewhere) have been poor as Ducati and Honda adapted to the spec ECU. It aptly demonstrates how much of modern MotoGP depends on electronics.

I'm always for dumbing down the ECUs to give the riders more control, but I suspect I'm in the minority.

The crash was a racing incident, though I think Pedrosa could've been a little more careful to ensure that his pass stuck, but I wouldn't go as far as placing the blame on him.

Click to expand...

If it's all down to electronics then explain Zarco?
It's more than just electronics, it has to be. The new chassis is based off the 2016 Yamaha, that it's worse means that Rossi, Vinales and Yamaha have once again gone wrong evolving the 2016 bike.
I think that Zarco is better rider than Vinales and Rossi at this stage and has been for a while. If he had the support that those two have I expect he would've won a championship by now.

JPL it seemed everyone thought or hoped Vinales was Lorenzo 2.0 but some far he hasn't shown anything to suggest he is anything like Lorenzos equal.

Mick D said:

I was just talking about what I saw, now it seems that Dovi, Jorge, Dani, and Mike Webb agree with me.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/895412/1/chain-reaction-lorenzo-pedrosa-dovizioso-skittled-spain

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/895413/1/pedrosa-disappointed-race-direction-after-fall

Click to expand...

I like Dovi, but it was up to him to pass cleanly, he couldn’t get it done. Of the three, Lorenzo seemed to be the only one to not apportion blame, but all were pretty adult about it. Surprised at Dovi’s comments, if it was anybody’s fault it was his.

Did Lorenzo leave the race line?
□YES □NO

Is he required to rejoin safely?
□YES □NO

The collision was caused by Lorenzo.

Everything else is irrelevant. Both Dovi (first) then Lorenzo (second) went wide leaving the racing line. Race Direction did not penalize Miller at COTA, rightly or wrongly, therefore action required same for Dovi at Jerez. Either this mistake is punished or not. Pedro stayed on the racing line, as was his right, no mistake to correct. Lorenzo's head is not on a neckbrace, he had the responsibility to look and see if it was clear to rejoin the race line, keeping your position is not the priority, therefore time is irrelevant. It's a racing incident prior to Argentina; however post Argentina, precedent required Race Direction penalize if they are to be consistent under the new fabricated mandate, they refused to penalize because of those involved, but under the "new" mandate, Lorenzo was supposed to be penalized for 'causing a crash.' Which goes to show you Race Direction's decisions are grossly different when it involves Rossi or Marc.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

RCV600RR said:

Marquez looks awesome. He and the bike are in perfect sync.

The Ducatis were impressive at a bogey track.

The 2016 Yamaha with Rossi blitzed the field here. Their subsequent results here (and increasingly, elsewhere) have been poor as Ducati and Honda adapted to the spec ECU. It aptly demonstrates how much of modern MotoGP depends on electronics.

I'm always for dumbing down the ECUs to give the riders more control, but I suspect I'm in the minority.

The crash was a racing incident, though I think Pedrosa could've been a little more careful to ensure that his pass stuck, but I wouldn't go as far as placing the blame on him.

Click to expand...

Not really. In ye olden days at Powerslide, this was a hot topic all the time. Pretty much everybody who's been around a while, would like less electronics. Stoner was quite vocal about that being his preference. Problem is there are (as I understand it) much fewer configurations and permutations of the program with the spec ECU, as compared to the factory ones. I'm no tech-geek, but I suspect the simple truth is there's only so much money you can throw at the programming issue, when you can't change the hardware. Others have either been better able to adapt the engines to the ECU than Yamaha. Some of it may just be down to luck. Also, if I recall correctly, some factories knowing the spec unit was inevitable, started R&Ding it well before it became mandatory. They were widely available well before that time.

That aside, if electronics were to be taken out of the equation, one of two things (or both) would occur. Lap times would be slower and/or there would be a many more grieveous injuries every year. Only so much you can do mechanically to tame that much horsepower with that kind of weight ratio. I submit had that happened 10 years ago, Stoner, who used less electronics than other riders would have won like 8 championships by now.

JPSLotus said:

At the time of the Vinales/Yamaha signing, I voiced my opinion that it wasn't a good signing because MV was not as good as people thought he was. Yes he won on the GSX-RR, but I felt that iteration of the bike was way better than people realized. Espargaro was okay on it, though I think he's done fairly well on the Aprilia all things considered.

The riders you mentioned (Rossi and Lorenzo) are not good adapters if they don't have a bike that suits their style. Marquez on the other hand, while not having ridden anything but the Honda, is highly adaptable as he won back to back titles with a screamer engine and then a big bang engine, to say nothing of how he makes the bike work in unfavorable conditions. I still think back to that Sachsenring wet race when he pitted early to go onto slicks when the track was still wet and barely had a dry racing line. You had the group of Rossi, Dovi, and a couple of others trying to kill each other by staying out, and Marquez made what seemed like an insane bike/tire switch. He then proceeded to demolish the field. The true adaptable rider is far and few IMO. They come along once in a generation or so. Eddie Lawson was one of them, Mike Hailwood another. You'd be hard pressed though to name too many riders that fit the bill. And when I say adaptable I mean guys who can actually win championships under adverse circumstances.

My opinion personally is if you put Marquez on the M1 or the Desmosedici, he would win the world title. I really want to see him on the Ducati more than anything as his aggressive physical style would be perfect for that bike. It's why Lorenzo is failing so badly because his riding style just isn't for that bike as we know, and he cannot adapt to it because he isn't, nor has ever been a physical type rider.

Click to expand...

Lorenzo is still in the mindspace of a guy riding a 250cc Aprilia and other than Rossi, Dani, Dovi, Bautista and Luthi - the last of the breed still in MotoGp. And only three of them are flourishing at this stage of the game. Funny to think that these guys are pretty much dinosaurs now.

Jumkie said:

Did Lorenzo leave the race line?
□YES □NO

Is he required to rejoin safely?
□YES □NO

The collision was caused by Lorenzo.

Everything else is irrelevant. Both Dovi (first) then Lorenzo (second) went wide leaving the racing line. Race Direction did not penalize Miller at COTA, rightly or wrongly, therefore action required same for Dovi at Jerez. Either this mistake is punished or not. Pedro stayed on the racing line, as was his right, no mistake to correct. Lorenzo's head is not on a neckbrace, he had the responsibility to look and see if it was clear to rejoin the race line, keeping your position is not the priority, therefore time is irrelevant. It's a racing incident prior to Argentina; however post Argentina, precedent required Race Direction penalize if they are to be consistent under the new fabricated mandate, they refused to penalize because of those involved, but under the "new" mandate, Lorenzo was supposed to be penalized for 'causing a crash.' Which goes to show you Race Direction's decisions are grossly different when it involves Rossi or Marc.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Click to expand...

After Valencia last year who knows, maybe he is lying, but Lorenzo actually said he didn’t know there was a third rider so close and his pit board only gave the identity and gap to the next rider ie Dovi.

I agree RD have got themselves in a bind the same as letting the Jerez 2005 pass go, and possibly the LS08 thing, even they know they can’t rule that Márquez was the at fault rider deserving of a penalty at Argentina and then call Lorenzo the at fault rider at Jerez.

I agree all 5 riders in the 2 incidents were involved in racing incidents, but to my mind Rossi had both the most opportunity to avoid collision and very likely several laps notice of MM’s arrival.

I am not sure about blaming Lorenzo anyway, given Dovi’s pass was somewhat uncontrolled and fairly clearly wouldn’t have stuck if it had just been him vs Jorge. Jorge was still on a line to make the corner, which puts him ahead of numerous riders in several of the other controversial incidents we have recently discussed, and perhaps Dani also should have had some anticipation that Lorenzo would dive back under Dovi given this is what most riders would do in the circumstance.

It's quite simple from my perspective.

The MM VR collision was avoidable. VR did not alter his line and the onus was on MM to ensure the pass was conducted safely and without contact. As a result of not completing the pass in such a manner contact was made, and VR no matter how clumsily he might have tried to prevent it, crashed as a result of an avoidable contact due to a misjudgement of the closing speed of the rider attempting the overtaking manoeuvre.

My two pennies, no doubt many of you will disagree. Regardless I feel it bears no comparison to the Jerez collision as I am about to explain.

This time around AD made misjudgement on entry closing speed, however no contact was made and his line remained consistent after entry. JL as is his right, then attempted to take advantage of AD having made a mistake which is entirely normal and what I believe is an expected manoeuvre, that is to make the cut back and regain the position he has just lost due to the decrease in momentum from the overtaking rider missing the apex. In this instance the following rider on track, DP would usually be expected to again capitalise on the decreased momentum of the riders ahead. The issue here is that because there were three riders and not the usual two, it led to an intersection of lines between DP and JL that resulted in an UNAVOIDABLE CONTACT due to DP being unsighted at and following the apex. There really is no blame to apportion here.

However I do feel that with an increase in penalty severity there should be greater clarity as to what is expected AND greater consistency in outcome. We are now seeing an informal rewriting of unwritten rules as to what constitutes fair race craft and as a result there is almost unanimous disagreement as to what should be allowed and what should not. It should be black and white but what we are now seeing is opinion based subjective decision making that is making it appear as though individual biases are defining the outcome of sanctions and that to me is unacceptable.

ratdeal said:

It's quite simple from my perspective.

The MM VR collision was avoidable. VR did not alter his line and the onus was on MM to ensure the pass was conducted safely and without contact. As a result of not completing the pass in such a manner contact was made, and VR no matter how clumsily he might have tried to prevent it, crashed as a result of an avoidable contact due to a misjudgement of the closing speed of the rider attempting the overtaking manoeuvre.

Click to expand...

Was Marquez on the inside and at least level?
If Yes then does he not have right of way regardless of Rossi not changing his line?

Level at the point of contact. He cannot have an increased closing speed and have been level prior to the point of contact.

p4p1 said:

If it's all down to electronics then explain Zarco?

Click to expand...

No-one said it's all down to electronics. It's just important. Rossi himself said it's around 75% electronic, 25% mechanical.

Zarco is really good with this bike/tyre combination at tracks like Jerez and Valencia. He still got smoked by Marquez, the Ducatis and Pedrosa.

p4p1 said:

The new chassis is based off the 2016 Yamaha, that it's worse means that Rossi, Vinales and Yamaha have once again gone wrong evolving the 2016 bike.

Click to expand...

Rossi always wanted the 2016 direction. Their key issue is electronics.

p4p1 said:

I think that Zarco is better rider than Vinales and Rossi at this stage and has been for a while. If he had the support that those two have I expect he would've won a championship by now.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone can get close to Marquez. Let's see the standings at the end of the season.

I think Spies showed how good the Tech 3 bike was when he moved to Factory Yamaha and his results were very similar to his Tech 3 results.

michaelm said:

After Valencia last year who knows, maybe he is lying, but Lorenzo actually said he didn’t know there was a third rider so close and his pit board only gave the identity and gap to the next rider ie Dovi.

I agree RD have got themselves in a bind the same as letting the Jerez 2005 pass go, and possibly the LS08 thing, even they know they can’t rule that Márquez was the at fault rider deserving of a penalty at Argentina and then call Lorenzo the at fault rider at Jerez.

I agree all 5 riders in the 2 incidents were involved in racing incidents, but to my mind Rossi had both the most opportunity to avoid collision and very likely several laps notice of MM’s arrival.

I am not sure about blaming Lorenzo anyway, given Dovi’s pass was somewhat uncontrolled and fairly clearly wouldn’t have stuck if it had just been him vs Jorge. Jorge was still on a line to make the corner, which puts him ahead of numerous riders in several of the other controversial incidents we have recently discussed, and perhaps Dani also should have had some anticipation that Lorenzo would dive back under Dovi given this is what most riders would do in the circumstance.

Click to expand...

Communication from pit is irrelevant, he also said he didn't know his dash was lighting up like a christmas tree, as you allude. Regardless, when you leave the race line who's responsibility is it to rejoin safely? The rider correctly on the race line has no responsibility to assume the professional rider in front of him will not follow the norms or 'new' expectations of racing post Argentina. Dani had zero blame, he should if anything anticipate professional riders will not endanger eachother by re-joing the race line they left.

Dovi's mistake may have caused Lorenzo to drift wide, however, Dovi's mistake did NOT force Lorenzo to return to the race line unsafely. Lorenzo had control of his bike at that moment, he executed the turn in without first checking to see if it was safe to do so. He caused the crash, RD under the new rules should penalize. And I'll add, as per Lorenzo himself based on what he said about the Miller/Lorenzo incident at COTA. That is, Lorenzo did not avoid the collision when he certainly could have and should have, his fault. Again, Dovi was not in control of Lorenzo's bike the moment Jorge decided to rejoin. That Dovi may have caused Lorenzo to drift wide is not a function of Jorge controlling his bike to turning back in, those are two separate and distinct moments.

For me the take away is that Race Direction again demonstrate their refusal to be consistent, not because of incompetence but rather because of inherent bias at best corruption at worst.

Jumkie said:

That Dovi may have caused Lorenzo to drift wide is not a function of Jorge controlling his bike to turning back in, those are two separate and distinct moments.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Dovi has no blame whatsoever.

RCV600RR said:

Zarco is really good with this bike/tyre combination at tracks like Jerez and Valencia. He still got smoked by Marquez, the Ducatis and Pedrosa.

Rossi always wanted the 2016 direction. Their key issue is electronics.

I don't think anyone can get close to Marquez. Let's see the standings at the end of the season.

I think Spies showed how good the Tech 3 bike was when he moved to Factory Yamaha and his results were very similar to his Tech 3 results.

Click to expand...

Wow. Your bias is just beyond the pale. If Zarco got smoked, then what about Rossi? He got barbecued?

Spies was a factory rider when he was at Tech 3. You understand that, right?

RCV600RR said:

Agreed. Dovi has no blame whatsoever.

Click to expand...

Just a point of order, (I should probably edit my post above) but obviously we are splitting hairs. I think at the end of the day its a 'racing incident', ONLY because racing allows for some 'human error' that is acceptable; in this case, Lorenzo was in error. The problem is that Race Direction have introduced a 'new' expectation and threshold for punishment, under this "new" mandate, Lorenzo should be penalized without question, he caused a collision, that RD did not penalize him is creating again the environment where Race Direction's credibility is non-existent.

RCV600RR said:

Agreed. Dovi has no blame whatsoever.

Click to expand...

Pedro is really the only innocent party here. Dovi has "blame" in perhaps causing Lorenzo to go wide, in racing this has never been reviewed or penalized to my recollection, that is, its considered benign; but as I said, it has zero to do with Lorenzo then turning back in causing the collision (which you agree).

Pedro's post race comments and analysis are spot on. Moreover, I'll add, Pedro refusing to submit a formal complaint, where in fact he has a reasonable grievance, shows his evolution of character as a man, which I respect. That Mike Webb refused to even meet with him to explain the inconsistency whilst a feet away in the next room speaks to who and what is Mike Webb, Race Direction, and Dorna. No further indictment needed, they show their true colors in every opportunity.

Iamapony said:

Wow. Your bias is just beyond the pale. If Zarco got smoked, then what about Rossi? He got barbecued?

Click to expand...

You just can't read properly. I didn't suggest otherwise. Other than for those with a lobotomy (which I'm beginning to suspect you're one of), it is obvious that if Rossi finished behind Zarco, Marquez' dominance over Rossi was even more profound.

Iamapony said:

Spies was a factory rider when he was at Tech 3. You understand that, right?

Click to expand...

He wasn't a factory rider. He had factory backing in the same sense that Jack Miller had backing at Honda, and Cal has now; Ben's contract was with Yamaha, but he didn't have a bike that was equal in spec to JL and VR in 2010.

He had a contract with Yamaha to race in WSBK for two years. After he won in his first year, Yamaha gave him a ride on the Tech 3 bike.

Jumkie said:

Pedro is really the only innocent party here. Dovi has "blame" in perhaps causing Lorenzo to go wide, in racing this has never been reviewed or penalized to my recollection, that is, its considered benign; but as I said, it has zero to do with Lorenzo then turning back in causing the collision (which you agree).

Click to expand...

Let's separate factual causation (i.e. 'but for event x, would the crash had occurred') from culpable causation (i.e. is person x morally at fault for the crash).

Jumkie said:

That Mike Webb refused to even meet with him to explain the inconsistency whilst a feet away in the next room speaks to who and what is Mike Webb, Race Direction, and Dorna. No further indictment needed, they show their true colors in every opportunity.

Click to expand...

The Red Bull Rookies cup was on - Mike Webb couldn't leave his post until that race was finished.