Wayne Rainey once said...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 19 2009, 09:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh come on Austin, be realistic. Stoner would have seen that rossi was in to hot and going off line before they entered the corkscrew so wasn't as committed as you rossi haters make out So has Schwantz got rossi goggles as well then ? i admit rossi ...... up , all im saying is stoner saw that and went for it. now if you read back to the posts i made back then i said i had gained respect for stoner because he tried it. but to imply rossi pushed him wide and not take into account it was casey who put himself there is , bizarre .geez look at the vid. If you watch the race again you will see that they both touch on the approach to the corkscrew so either could have pushed one an other off line. Some here are making out that rossi had malice and tried to push stoner wide deliberately. read gsfans posts.
Like I said, either Stoner figured Rossi was too hot and was going to run through the gravel, reentering at the bottom at which point Stoner would already be by or he figured Rossi had one of his braking moments that appear impossible by the laws of physics that he has notoriously exited safely. Either way, I don't think Stoner anticipated Rossi coming back on track mid-corner. As I said before, fair play to Rossi for making it work and I'm not complaining. But, as I also said before, what should Stoner have done once he saw Rossi in the gravel? Slow down and wait for him to rejoin?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Feb 19 2009, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Like I said, either Stoner figured Rossi was too hot and was going to run through the gravel, reentering at the bottom at which point Stoner would already be by or he figured Rossi had one of his braking moments that appear impossible by the laws of physics that he has notoriously exited safely. Either way, I don't think Stoner anticipated Rossi coming back on track mid-corner. As I said before, fair play to Rossi for making it work and I'm not complaining. But, as I also said before, what should Stoner have done once he saw Rossi in the gravel? Slow down and wait for him to rejoin?
NO, he should have done what he did do, Try and pass. As i said i respected his guts as a racer to try it, But whining about it after was not right as he could see what was about to happen on the approach so it was he who took the risk. This is all old news but i cant sit by and read the ..... gsfan had to say about it and not comment now could i ?

I so love this place.


(Nev, your still a f.g) Sometimes its just one dot you need.


Rog, your exchange with Austin brought back great memories of us arguing. BTW, Austin is winning.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 19 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I so love this place.


(Nev, your still a f.g) Sometimes its just one dot you need.


Rog, your exchange with Austin brought back great memories of us arguing. BTW, Austin is winning.
only in the stoner and 06 hayden boys eyes

funny thing is, rossi didn't pass stoner in the corkscrew. rossi was in first all be it out of control, it was stoner who passed briefly go figure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 19 2009, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>NO, he should have done what he did do, Try and pass. As i said i respected his guts as a racer to try it, But whining about it after was not right as he could see what was about to happen on the approach so it was he who took the risk. This is all old news but i cant sit by and read the ..... gsfan had to say about it and not comment now could i ?
I agree about the whining and that he did what he needed to do. I still don't think he was the risk taker there, and that calling it a pass attempt is not entirely accurate. Anytime a rider exits the track the rider following is going to take the opportunity to advance, but the risk in that is generally very low as most riders will simply try to ride out their off course excursion. Rossi, however has that rare and unique combination of 'win at all costs' mentality and the ability to ride out of anything. His reentry to the course mid-corner is what created the risky situation. Like I said, he made it work so far play and I'm not one to complain about close racing. That seems to be Casey's job and I wouldn't want to step on any toes. Then again, if I was putting my life at risk and an incident like this occurred I wouldn't be full of sunshine, either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 19 2009, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BTW, Austin is winning.
He shoots, he scores!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 19 2009, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>funny thing is, rossi didn't pass stoner in the corkscrew. rossi was in first all be it out of control, it was stoner who passed briefly go figure.
For the record, I don't think Stoner ever got in front of Rossi in that incident.

Columbia Encyclopedia: A malicious state of mind may be inferred from reckless and wanton acts that a normal person should know <u>might</u> produce or <u>threaten</u> injury to others. Malice was your word Rog.

The way that Rossi was racing in 2 on track incidents at Laguna was reckless. It only included luck to be on his side to be successful which thankfully it was. Most of his racing was fantastic but the incident on the corkscrew and the last corner brake check were the only ones I disagreed with. And I'm not alone. I am not contesting the outcome at all and I love close hard racing. I am looking forward to Laguna this year a lot.

So that, and the Jerez incident, makes 3 situations that I don't like in the entire spectrum of modern MotoGP racing that include Rossi. That hardly makes me a Rossi hater. I don't like multiple others like them equally because IMO they were caused by a rider who finds himself desperate to pass or win and was clearly threatened skillwise so he chose to overcome the situation by increasing the risk level to a point where the safety of his opponents was out of control. Now back to my knitting...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Feb 19 2009, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Columbia Encyclopedia: A malicious state of mind may be inferred from reckless and wanton acts that a normal person should know <u>might</u> produce or <u>threaten</u> injury to others. Malice was your word Rog.

The way that Rossi was racing in 2 on track incidents at Laguna was reckless. It only included luck to be on his side to be successful which thankfully it was. Most of his racing was fantastic but the incident on the corkscrew and the last corner brake check were the only ones I disagreed with. And I'm not alone. I am not contesting the outcome at all and I love close hard racing. I am looking forward to Laguna this year a lot.

So that, and the Jerez incident, makes 3 situations that I don't like in the entire spectrum of modern MotoGP racing that include Rossi. That hardly makes me a Rossi hater. I don't like multiple others like them equally because IMO they were caused by a rider who finds himself desperate to pass or win and was clearly threatened skillwise so he chose to overcome the situation by increasing the risk level to a point where the safety of his opponents was out of control. Now back to my knitting...
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary malice
noun
the wish to harm or upset other people:
There certainly wasn't any malice in her comments.
FORMAL I bear him no malice (= do not want to harm or upset him)

if you really believe this was the case then we must agree to differ.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Feb 19 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Like I said, either Stoner figured Rossi was too hot and was going to run through the gravel, reentering at the bottom at which point Stoner would already be by or he figured Rossi had one of his braking moments that appear impossible by the laws of physics that he has notoriously exited safely. Either way, I don't think Stoner anticipated Rossi coming back on track mid-corner. As I said before, fair play to Rossi for making it work and I'm not complaining. But, as I also said before, what should Stoner have done once he saw Rossi in the gravel? Slow down and wait for him to rejoin?

I don't know Austin, our eyes and brain are advanced instuments. Any trained rider or driver don't even consiously calaculate the curve in a turn, just turn in and stay there to the end of the turn, and we even do that with the expected widening of the line as speed increase. We also anticipate others line to be dangerous to us or not. Again almost without a consious effort. To me this was another example of two racers being to hot. Rossi were in too hot while Stoner had the speed into the turn right, but the temptation to cross in front of Rossi were too much. Knowing when to hold back and actually executing it in defining moments of a race is to me the single most admirable tacktical ability of a racer. Very few are good at that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 19 2009, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Look at the 49 sec to 52 sec part of the vid. You clearly see vale in front and casey trying to put a pass move on vale because he ran off line i.e the dirt. So who pulled the dangerous move ?
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Roge, we have all been there and said our piece on whether VR's re-entry was dangerous or whether CS' leaning on VR on the run-up was dangerous, so with respects lets not start to rehash old ground and end up dragging this thread down a well worn path. We both know that we have different opinions to a level of degree on it.

But I will restate again that yes, there were actions throughout the whole incident (not just the actual pass, off track excursion) to which both riders contributed that could have had different outcomes were these guys not as skilled as they are. As it is, no rider crashed at the time and many a lesser rider has crashed far more easily so whether one is a fanboy or just an enthusiast we have to admit that it was excitibg at the time and given the level of talk that continues, it remains exciting.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Feb 19 2009, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Roge, we have all been there and said our piece on whether VR's re-entry was dangerous or whether CS' leaning on VR on the run-up was dangerous, so with respects lets not start to rehash old ground and end up dragging this thread down a well worn path. We both know that we have different opinions to a level of degree on it.

But I will restate again that yes, there were actions throughout the whole incident (not just the actual pass, off track excursion) to which both riders contributed that could have had different outcomes were these guys not as skilled as they are. As it is, no rider crashed at the time and many a lesser rider has crashed far more easily so whether one is a fanboy or just an enthusiast we have to admit that it was excitibg at the time and given the level of talk that continues, it remains exciting.






Garry
With respect Gaz, thats what this thread is about !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 19 2009, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>With respect Gaz, thats what this thread is about !



I take it more about the comments by Rainey and what it means, not necessarily about discussing whether the actions of the riders were right, wrong or somewhere between.

To me, Rainey's comments were spot on for that race. VR got past CS at the Corscrew and CS did not or could not get back for any number of reasons, but ultimatelyhis ambition of the day caused him to farkup (I still find it a slap to the others faces that he still finished second though).

But as I have also said before, if CS does not learn from the lesson given to him on that day (and I do hope he does) than he needs to look hard at himself.







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Feb 19 2009, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the last corner brake check Jesus

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goatboy @ Feb 19 2009, 10:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Jesus
can you imagine racing at rthis level without brake checking

The sad thing about all this matter is that an entire season of racing had one exciting race. I watched the 2006 season again over the past few days (brought on by the thread arguing which was the best in recent times) and holy ....., a full season of racing action! The race at Mugello in 06 was amazing. I think we all had racing blueballs, after the dull 07 and 08 seasons, then finally we had a race on at Laguna, everyone was blowing their load. My point, ah .... I don't have one, let's just hope 2009 rocks.

I didn't say the brake check was illegal or uncommon I just said I believe it was reckless and I didn't like it. I hope Stoner's wrist heals well enough for the hard lessons he learned that day to be applied this year. Maybe Capper can join the fray at the front this year if the GS continues to evolve to the top level. He'll give no quarter. A look into his history shows some dubious moves also.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Feb 20 2009, 06:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't say the brake check was illegal or uncommon I just said I believe it was reckless and I didn't like it. I hope Stoner's wrist heals well enough for the hard lessons he learned that day to be applied this year. Maybe Capper can join the fray at the front this year if the GS continues to evolve to the top level. He'll give no quarter. A look into his history shows some dubious moves also.

Atleast, Capper would definitely not whine after a hard duel.

I better enjoyed this thread when there was peace and harmony among the Rossi/Stoner/Hayden fans. Focus people...back on Nev.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 20 2009, 06:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I better enjoyed this thread when there was peace and harmony among the Rossi/Stoner/Hayden fans. Focus people...back on Nev.
easy jumkie, i think he knows that how everyone feels about his expression... maybe it was made to pull rainey down, maybe it was not... let nev explain himself to clear stuff, and if it was in bad thoughts, an apology...


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Feb 20 2009, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't say the brake check was illegal or uncommon I just said I believe it was reckless and I didn't like it. I hope Stoner's wrist heals well enough for the hard lessons he learned that day to be applied this year. Maybe Capper can join the fray at the front this year if the GS continues to evolve to the top level. He'll give no quarter. A look into his history shows some dubious moves also.
i think the brake check gave a big anti climax to a very cool race. i think that it was on purpose, and let me explain:

rossi was needing to retake stoner every time, and that plan worked quite nice, untill stoner passed him at a point that rossi needed to retake him on the corkscrew again. but this time stoner knew the line rossi would take, so he went that line and got in a little bit more inside. rossi wanted to go on the inside again, finding that he didnt expected him taking that line. so he needed to go deep... to deep.
from that point he knew that stoner was getting rossi's lines and afraid needing to go even deeper next time, he knew he wouldnt keep it up the whole race. maybe his tires were worn a lot too, i dont know, but i think he decided that stoner needed to make a mistake for him to win, and he knew that stoner would likely not. so he did the brake check...

thats the scenario i think...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Feb 19 2009, 11:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The sad thing about all this matter is that an entire season of racing had one exciting race. I watched the 2006 season again over the past few days (brought on by the thread arguing which was the best in recent times) and holy ....., a full season of racing action! The race at Mugello in 06 was amazing. I think we all had racing blueballs, after the dull 07 and 08 seasons, then finally we had a race on at Laguna, everyone was blowing their load. My point, ah .... I don't have one, let's just hope 2009 rocks.

+1 ^

the whole 2008 season had one race where anything of major interest happened. there are pages and pages of discussion/heated arguement over the corkscrew "pass" and nothing of any sustance for the rest of the season. shows just how exciting the "racing" was in 2008...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slide @ Feb 20 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>easy jumkie, i think he knows that how everyone feels about his expression... maybe it was made to pull rainey down, maybe it was not... let nev explain himself to clear stuff, and if it was in bad thoughts, an apology...



i think the brake check gave a big anti climax to a very cool race. i think that it was on purpose, and let me explain:

rossi was needing to retake stoner every time, and that plan worked quite nice, untill stoner passed him at a point that rossi needed to retake him on the corkscrew again. but this time stoner knew the line rossi would take, so he went that line and got in a little bit more inside. rossi wanted to go on the inside again, finding that he didnt expected him taking that line. so he needed to go deep... to deep.
from that point he knew that stoner was getting rossi's lines and afraid needing to go even deeper next time, he knew he wouldnt keep it up the whole race. maybe his tires were worn a lot too, i dont know, but i think he decided that stoner needed to make a mistake for him to win, and he knew that stoner would likely not. so he did the brake check...

thats the scenario i think...

Or maybe it was because stoner had more speed into the last turn than ever. If you watch the replay closely look at how he take extreme heigt into the second last turn. This enabled him to come faster out of that turn than he ever did before.
The last turn is not an easy trun do brake check as it is also a common place to make a pass. If there ever was a brake check it must have been very early in the turn long before he closed in on apex, or even before the turn. That would be takeing a huge risk of being passed. A risk Rossi couldn't afford. Rather he did take a protective line in many of the turn and that often require lower speed at the apex. But it's not brake checking.