Wayne Rainey once said...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 15 2009, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gary, I think Rossi did have a choice but he stubbornly rejoined after he had ran off and wide. It’s a basic attitude he is known for, which has served him well his whole career. It’s a bit of aggressive/man up/bullying. Its his track and everybody else be damned, a killer instinct. I admire some of it actually, but if you have two sharks like that, then you have a crash. Up until now, I can't think of another rider that has that killer instinct. And if they do bump, as Elias did in Turkey, what happens? Everybody jumps on the guy for being too dangerous, right? Stoner didn't back down, which I admire about him, notwithstanding, I also think Casey has a slight more preservation of life and limb mentality than Rossi. I admire them both.
You would know better than me, but did rossi have another option once he went off the track other than re-entering where he did (apart from putting the bike down or into the fence)?. If he didn't stoner probably made a tactical mistake by not giving him room; some said at the time that if stoner hadn't held his line he could have taken off whilst rossi straightened his bike up. The implication I was objecting to was that stoner had been scared.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Feb 14 2009, 08:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You would know better than me, but did rossi have another option once he went off the track other than re-entering where he did (apart from putting the bike down or into the fence)?. If he didn't stoner probably made a tactical mistake by not giving him room; some said at the time that if stoner hadn't held his line he could have taken off whilst rossi straightened his bike up. The implication I was objecting to was that stoner had been scared.

That's a good question. I think Rossi had so much momentum in the direction of getting back on the track that this was his best option for his own preservation. Thing is, that meant having to cross Stoner's line. I don't really think he had too much time to think but was in the heat of the moment. It looks to me like he was just trying to get back on the track to save his skin. Once back on, he regained total traction and had scrubbed enough speed that he could get back on the full throttle (split second of course). It was more like saving a crash (something like what Colin did when he managed to stand his bike back up), in other words, avoiding a sure ejection. In that part of the track, the wider you go on the gravel, the more step the decline, so going back to the track was the best bet to avoid crashing himself. It was quick thinking on his part, and he managed to save it, with the help of Stoner's quick reaction.

I think gfan nailed above, the incident seemed to embolden Rossi. Stoner must have been thinking, damn this guy is crazy. But it is way wrong to think Stoner folded, as has been said by some. There was still plenty of challenges by Stoner in the laps that remained to indicated that Stoner remained fearless. I just think that the incident, though a Rossi mistake, affected Rossi to feel invincible in the heat of the moment. I have no idea what that level of competitive concentration is like, but both are champions for a reason. This was a great battle, but I also remember Qatar 07, Rossi hounded Stoner (keep in mind at the time Stoner had not yet tasted victory and Vale was as crafty as ever), yet Stoner maintained his composure and brought it home for a win. If you recall, Rossi also managed to make some passes deep into braking disrupting Stoner's line. But Casey still managed to challenge back. Now granted, Stoner's bike did have more acceleration on the straight (no doubt) however, that may have been due to excellent drives out, but this doesn't mean (as has mean argued by me) that keeping the lead was easier since on the turns Rossi's bike looked to have handling and corner speed.

Anyway, my two (more like 50) cents.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 15 2009, 04:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's a good question. I think Rossi had so much momentum in the direction of getting back on the track that this was his best option for his own preservation. Thing is, that meant having to cross Stoner's line. I don't really think he had too much time to think but was in the heat of the moment. It looks to me like he was just trying to get back on the track to save his skin. Once back on, he regained total traction and had scrubbed enough speed that he could get back on the full throttle (split second of course). It was more like saving a crash (something like what Colin did when he managed to stand his bike back up), in other words, avoiding a sure ejection. In that part of the track, the wider you go on the gravel, the more step the decline, so going back to the track was the best bet to avoid crashing himself. It was quick thinking on his part, and he managed to save it, with the help of Stoner's quick reaction.

I think gfan nailed above, the incident seemed to embolden Rossi. Stoner must have been thinking, damn this guy is crazy. But it is way wrong to think Stoner folded, as has been said by some. There was still plenty of challenges by Stoner in the laps that remained to indicated that Stoner remained fearless. I just think that the incident, though a Rossi mistake, affected Rossi to feel invincible in the heat of the moment. I have no idea what that level of competitive concentration is like, but both are champions for a reason. This was a great battle, but I also remember Qatar 07, Rossi hounded Stoner (keep in mind at the time Stoner had not yet tasted victory and Vale was as crafty as ever), yet Stoner maintained his composure and brought it home for a win. If you recall, Rossi also managed to make some passes deep into braking disrupting Stoner's line. But Casey still managed to challenge back. Now granted, Stoner's bike did have more acceleration on the straight (no doubt) however, that may have been due to excellent drives out, but this doesn't mean (as has mean argued by me) that keeping the lead was easier since on the turns Rossi's bike looked to have handling and corner speed.

Anyway, my two (more like 50) cents.
Thanks. I actually think this has developed into quite a good thread, more dispassionate than at the time of the race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(gsfan @ Feb 14 2009, 11:20 AM)
Rossi took a serious gamble and forced his competitor to back off or crash.

I disagree no malice was intended. If the race had continued I expect it wouldn't have been pretty.

........ ! stoner didn't back off at all which is why schwantz said he shouldn't be whining about it. Had he of backed off rossi probably would have crashed and stoner gone on to win.

Of course you do because your a Rossi hater. How was there malice ?

Jumkie, how the .... can you say "post of the month" to this jerk. Did you actually read his tripe ? No facts just conjecture derived from his hatred .


i don't understand some of you. You whine that motogp is boring then whine about the best race in years. Had that moved been made by Bayliss in wsb you all would be saying how wsb is soooo much better and more exciting than motogp. Gsfan, stick to you knitting you ....... old woman

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 15 2009, 11:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>........ ! stoner didn't back off at all which is why schwantz said he shouldn't be whining about it. Had he of backed off rossi probably would have crashed and stoner gone on to win.

Of course you do because your a Rossi hater. How was there malice ?

Jumkie, how the .... can you say "post of the month" to this jerk. Did you actually read his tripe ? No facts just conjecture derived from his hatred .


i don't understand some of you. You whine that motogp is boring then whine about the best race in years. Had that moved been made by Bayliss in wsb you all would be saying how wsb is soooo much better and more exciting than motogp. Gsfan, stick to you knitting you ....... old woman
These decisions are all made in milliseconds, so I don't think there is much time for malice; as I said I agree with schwantz et al that stoner made a tactical error, and if he had his time again I am sure he would have taken off, since rossi ended up going across the track for some distance with stoner perforce in tandem. As jumkie said though you have to give him some credit for having the reflexes to avoid the crash in the end, I am not sure everyone in the field would have managed the same. As I recall stoner was actually more concerned about some other pass, one which I was unable to discern when I watched the replay.

The other thing is that rossi and jb found quite significant pace by the time of the race, since rossi actually managed to get up to and past stoner in the first place before any of this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Feb 15 2009, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dance puppets dance
Works on you sometimes too .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Feb 16 2009, 12:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>... Wayne one of the GREATEST riders ever to grace the tarmac

Wayne Gardner!!??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 15 2009, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wayne Gardner!!??
A great rider but not in Rainey's league.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 15 2009, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree that the criteria is not all about perfect control, but babel, do you really think it was Rossi's intention to go off track or was that a 'mistake'??? If you look at the vid, Rossi does try to outbrake Stoner coming up to the corkscrew, but he braked so late that he ran wide--that is the mistake in my opinion. He then corrected and came back into the track. Twice he crossed Stoner's line. 1. When Vale attempted to outbrake, and 2. when he rejoined the track. Is that what you call a "move"? Even accepting that it was intentional to outbrake, which is a racing "move", but when you make a mistake in that "move" it no longer can be said it was praiseworthy simply because it didn't end in a crash. This happens plenty of times in a race, a rider will run wide because they don't scrub enough speed on late braking. Simply because nobody was there for them to crash into doesn't make this a praiseworthy "move". I call that a mistake that didn't have dire consequences.

I fully agree that there indeed was a misstake/miss calculation involved. When a rate it extreemly high as a move it is becuse Rossi rate just as high. No one can possibly know what challenge(1) he was up to except for himself and stoner, so I take his word for it. When the man that probably has done more passes than anyone else in the history of MotoGp and 100s of them done where no one else could do it, says it was "incredible" I tend to belive him. YMMV
Back to the details. His first crossing of the line were little different from any perfect pass where you simply occupie the ideal line. Regardless of how his line was, at that point he were exactly where he should be blocking Stoners line. From there on the mistake was obvious, he did have to much speed in and the gravel were unavoidable so where the reentry pushing stoner wide, but I maintain that stoner had a choise right after he stood the bike up slightly the first time. He could have backed off and by that he might even been able to repass Rossi right after as he were out of shape. AND Rossi where still in front and by definition "owns" the track and allthough he didn't following the ideal line, little critic can be put on him from actually going there. A lesser rider might have gone down and taken stoner with him into the wall.

I disagree that a pass have to be clinical and without discomfort from the one being passed. Rating them should be done based on the execution, originality and difficulty. Much like snowboard jumps, and many other X-games sports. That enable the performer to do an untidy
stunt but still come out as a winner. Something that is very different from a simple, yet clumsy stunt (Elias) Rossi's pass score low on execution, high on originality and through the rood in difficulty. That's why I belive that the words misstake and successfull can co-exist.

(1)In this I also assume that Rossi would consider the fight as lost if he let Stoner stay in front into the corck screw as this part up to turn one was the part where stoner were at his very best and clearly faster.

I'm not convinced Rossi's pass was a mistake, but i'm pretty sure he didn't intend to go on the grass. Either way i don't think its too important, it was a fairly ugly, scrappy pass but its significance to the race and eventually the championship will ensure its status. Oh i wouldn't put too much weight on Rossi saying it was one of his finest, he is a sharp guy and will have known that talking the pass up would amplify its impact, just like when he showed no remorce for knocking Sete off.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Feb 16 2009, 05:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But i meant Rainey you ....... ....


Then gee he couldn't have got it more wrong

Didn't Stoner win another GP after that? that would suggest "the Super-extraordinary-alltime-most amazingly-skilled Pass" ..... wasn't worth a cracker!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 15 2009, 03:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>........ ! stoner didn't back off at all which is why schwantz said he shouldn't be whining about it. Had he of backed off rossi probably would have crashed and stoner gone on to win.

Of course you do because your a Rossi hater. How was there malice ?

Jumkie, how the .... can you say "post of the month" to this jerk. Did you actually read his tripe ? No facts just conjecture derived from his hatred .


i don't understand some of you. You whine that motogp is boring then whine about the best race in years. Had that moved been made by Bayliss in wsb you all would be saying how wsb is soooo much better and more exciting than motogp. Gsfan, stick to you knitting you ....... old woman

Geez, didn't know you felt so strongly about it. Well in that case, I retreat from this argument.

I'll just say, it was a great race, the corkscrew incident is debatable, I wish we had more races like that where dirty riders can get away with almost murder.






(BTW, I havent been paying too much attention, but what did gfan do in the past to get you so angry? ...so I can hate him too).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Feb 14 2009, 08:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks. I actually think this has developed into quite a good thread, more dispassionate than at the time of the race.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 15 2009, 08:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I fully agree that there indeed was a misstake/miss calculation involved.

I disagree that a pass have to be clinical and without discomfort from the one being passed.
Reasonable post. Don't have much to add.



.....(Right Rog?)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 15 2009, 11:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then gee he couldn't have got it more wrong

Didn't Stoner win another GP after that? that would suggest "the Super-extraordinary-alltime-most amazingly-skilled Pass" ..... wasn't worth a cracker!


He won 2 you ....... Muppet. pi and valencia if my memory serves. call yourself a fan ?? but he also crashed a lot after so bearing in mind his great 07b season he defo wasnt the same man after laguna

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 16 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Geez, didn't know you felt so strongly about it. Well in that case, I retreat from this argument.

I'll just say, it was a great race, the corkscrew incident is debatable, I wish we had more races like that where dirty riders can get away with almost murder.






(BTW, I havent been paying too much attention, but what did gfan do in the past to get you so angry? ...so I can hate him too).

Reasonable post. Don't have much to add.



.....(Right Rog?)
He dare bad mouth my Lord

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 15 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He dare bad mouth my Lord

What? Damn it, didn't he get the memo. Only I can do that!



Gfan, who the hell do you think you are?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 16 2009, 12:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What? Damn it, didn't he get the memo. Only I can do that!



Gfan, who the hell do you think you are?
yeah ........ im going to put a rossi hex on him.

gsfan will never get another shag in his life again, and suzuki will never win. hardly a hex i know , more stating the obvious