Wayne Rainey once said...

Was just good brain out hard and close racing imo. not dirty racing as some may see it (jumkie) because no malace was intended.
I think a lot of peeps just got used to parade racing and when we finally got some real excitement it was a shock to some peeps systems Give us more of the same i say

Rossi took a serious gamble and forced his competitor to back off or crash. Well that happens in racing but as soon as someone hits the grass or dirt because of it I call foul. It seemed unnecessary unless it was just Rossi making it damn clear that he would pass and take the lead or next time it would be worse. I'm sure that is what Stoner was thinking. The only thing worse was a full on intentional T-bone and Rossi has done it before to Gibbers without regret so the possibility was there. It was clear that this kind of maneuver was the next step in the game clearly indicated by the brake check that ...... up Stoner's timing for the last corner causing him to rapidly bail out of the corner and subsequent fall (which was his own fault he continually was too close before the straight). The race between the two of them was intense but I got the feeling more was coming and one of them would get seriously injured. One guy cared and the other didn't.

So I disagree no malice was intended. If the race had continued I expect it wouldn't have been pretty.

Rossi did indeed take a serious gamble that could of been catastrophic for both himself and Stoner, but in the end it wasnt....what it was though was by far the best race of the last 2years. They were both gunning it and taking risks-Rossi said that Stoner touched him while making the pass round the outside and ultimately Stoner crashed out because he was carrying way to much speed, a la Rossi in the corkscrew. I dont call foul at all, they both wanted the win and neither were gonna settle for anything less.

We should be thankfull for a races like that

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 14 2009, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Untie Jazkat immediately, and give him back his computer.


DAM i guess you was thinking pinky had hijacked my house?

i only let ...... in here not hong kong phooey ladymen who beat there mixture to much and get bad tendons in there hand

na its me, im just telling how i see it after watching it many times

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 14 2009, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wow I'd agree with you totally on this post Jaz!! ..... thats weird.

Except I'd say Rossi's outside pass on corner 3 or so was the point at which I thought ...... "Rossi's serious about this one!!", and the pass that won him the race ........... Stoners outside pas was gutsy but I didn't think he'd hold it.

The corkscrew pass was sheer crap riding,..... it seems, though, it has been deemed, by some, as the best/most controlled/most calculatedly brilliant maneuver ever carried out
Had Stoner not had the presence of mind to lean in on him they both would have been in the fence.

Just to get the record straight, Stoner did touch Rossi when going around the outside. Something Rossi made a point of after the race when stoner started to whine.

Secondly, I doubt any one used the most controlled/most calculatedly as criteria for the corck screw move. What's the best move: The surgical pricise move where the oponent didn't have a chance, or attempting the impossible and get a way with it, even if it's not a awan dance?

Otherwise I agree that both the other moves were worthy mentioning.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spooky @ Feb 14 2009, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi did indeed take a serious gamble that could of been catastrophic for both himself and Stoner, but in the end it wasnt....what it was though was by far the best race of the last 2years. They were both gunning it and taking risks-Rossi said that Stoner touched him while making the pass round the outside and ultimately Stoner crashed out because he was carrying way to much speed, a la Rossi in the corkscrew. I dont call foul at all, they both wanted the win and neither were gonna settle for anything less.

We should be thankfull for a races like that

Very well said spooky

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 14 2009, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just to get the record straight, Stoner did touch Rossi when going around the outside. Something Rossi made a point of after the race when stoner started to whine.


yeah thats why im not taking either side both riders had there moment's, i knew stoner was pretty close going around the outside but wasnt sure if he touched rossi, he did pull into his line drasticly tho when going around the outside.

so im just leaving it at that lol

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 14 2009, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just to get the record straight, Stoner did touch Rossi when going around the outside. Something Rossi made a point of after the race when stoner started to whine.

Secondly, I doubt any one used the most controlled/most calculatedly as criteria for the corck screw move. What's the best move: The surgical pricise move where the oponent didn't have a chance, or attempting the impossible and get a way with it, even if it's not a awan dance?

Otherwise I agree that both the other moves were worthy mentioning.
Yup. stoner touched rossi on the approach to the corkscrew also no body forced stoner to try and pass the out of control rossi on the outside through the corkscrew, something schwantz pointed out. It was 6 of 1 and half dozen of the other. Geez is there no end the the rossi haters whining ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 14 2009, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner did touch Rossi
and rossi didnt touch stoner?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 14 2009, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Was just good brain out hard and close racing imo. not dirty racing as some may see it (jumkie) because no malace was intended.
I think a lot of peeps just got used to parade racing and when we finally got some real excitement it was a shock to some peeps systems Give us more of the same i say
I agree with this, no malice was intended. But a mistake is a MISTAKE (NOT to be confused with an actual PASS made by benefit of racecraft). Sometimes they have consequences and sometimes they are near misses. When Carlos Checa torpedoed Max Neukirchner on the last turn, it was pretty clear that was a big mistake. Was it done by "malice", perhaps not, was it 'desperation'? --I think so.

Remind me what the Rossi fans said about Elias when he crashed Rossi in the first race of the season? Did they call that a "PASS"? Lets just suppose for a moment that Rossi would had gone down but just off the track and rejoined the race, would we be voting for that as a "GREAT MOVE"? No way right? I think its a simply a reflection of his fans. For me, like Jazkat said, there were actually 'real passes' in that race that were PRAISEWORTH! (The mistake into the corkscrew was NOT one of them).

I'm just not king on roundly congratulating Vale, for what the unbiased spectator recognizes as a mistake that just didn't end in a crash. That's all I'm saying.

As far as the "dirty racing", you know I was talking about what looked like a brakecheck. Racers do it, they are very hard to detect, but it does exist. Whether Rossi did it or not, we will never know, unless we wire tap Rossi's phone and he admits to it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 14 2009, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with this, no malice was intended. But a mistake is a MISTAKE (NOT to be confused with an actual PASS made by benefit of racecraft). Sometimes they have consequences and sometimes they are near misses. When Carlos Checa torpedoed Max Neukirchner on the last turn, it was pretty clear that was a big mistake. Was it done by "malice", perhaps not, was it 'desperation'? --I think so.

Remind me what the Rossi fans said about Elias when he crashed Rossi in the first race of the season? Did they call that a "PASS"? Lets just suppose for a moment that Rossi would had gone down but just off the track and rejoined the race, would we be voting for that as a "GREAT MOVE"? No way right? I think its a simply a reflection of his fans. For me, like Jazkat said, there were actually 'real passes' in that race that were PRAISEWORTH! (The mistake into the corkscrew was NOT one of them).

I'm just not king on roundly congratulating Vale, for what the unbiased spectator recognizes as a mistake that just didn't end in a crash. That's all I'm saying.

As far as the "dirty racing", you know I was talking about what looked like a brakecheck. Racers do it, they are very hard to detect, but it does exist. Whether Rossi did it or not, we will never know, unless we wire tap Rossi's phone and he admits to it.
i was just punking you on that compa. Remember when we were watching it on the tv round your place That was the first time we actually got to see the corkscrew pass and your dirty brake check (your opinion not mine) manover that saw casey in the kitty litter good times

Dirty or not, i want more of the same please. The sounds of half a dozen blokes shouting at your tv then at each other said said what an epic race it was.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Feb 14 2009, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi took a serious gamble and forced his competitor to back off or crash. Well that happens in racing but as soon as someone hits the grass or dirt because of it I call foul. It seemed unnecessary unless it was just Rossi making it damn clear that he would pass and take the lead or next time it would be worse. I'm sure that is what Stoner was thinking. The only thing worse was a full on intentional T-bone and Rossi has done it before to Gibbers without regret so the possibility was there. It was clear that this kind of maneuver was the next step in the game clearly indicated by the brake check that ...... up Stoner's timing for the last corner causing him to rapidly bail out of the corner and subsequent fall (which was his own fault he continually was too close before the straight). The race between the two of them was intense but I got the feeling more was coming and one of them would get seriously injured. One guy cared and the other didn't.

So I disagree no malice was intended. If the race had continued I expect it wouldn't have been pretty.

Post of the month. I totally agree with everything EXCEPT: I do NOT think it was "malice" but rather race intimidation, and that is acceptable. I think Rossi is smart and good enough to intimidate and pressure without crossing the line, which is why I fully believe the corkscrew move was a MISTAKE (not intended).

Rossi has told us plenty of times that he intends to pressure a rider into a mistake. This is fact, he's said it plenty of times. But "malice" seems a bit harsh, since I think Ross's intention is to force a mistake, not force a crash.

As far as the "brakesheck", haha, man you just brought back a great memory. Roger and I had a proper argument about it here at my house. Hahahaha, great times. At would you know, just like the forum, we didn't agree. The lesson: even having a video and super slow motion, it was inconclusive, but he thought one thing and I still think another. Still, we had a blast arguing about it and went out for a drink.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 14 2009, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i was just punking you on that compa. Remember when we were watching it on the tv round your place That was the first time we actually got to see the corkscrew pass and your dirty brake check (your opinion not mine) manover that saw casey in the kitty litter good times

Dirty or not, i want more of the same please. The sounds of half a dozen blokes shouting at your tv then at each other said said what an epic race it was.

Dude, I was just writing it as you were. ^

Hahaha, ....... eh brotha. Got to make it to UK next year. Sucks there will be no Donny, but who cares, good times with good friends was the whole point, and an epic race to boot.

WFT, may as well join in.

IMO, I agree fully that the 'supposed pass' at the Corkscrew was a mistake that worked out and I put that down to the skillso f both riders to firtly remain cool/calm and in control of the situation even though it was out of control. Yes, I believe now as I did then that the re-entry by VR was extremely dangerous but also I recognise that he validly had no option and do believe that CS realised this and therefore was ready.

A mistake yes, IMO a pass no (and I agree that a pass is more clinincal, surgical and calculated).







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 14 2009, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just to get the record straight, Stoner did touch Rossi when going around the outside. Something Rossi made a point of after the race when stoner started to whine.

Secondly, I doubt any one used the most controlled/most calculatedly as criteria for the corck screw move. What's the best move: The surgical pricise move where the oponent didn't have a chance, or attempting the impossible and get a way with it, even if it's not a awan dance?

Otherwise I agree that both the other moves were worthy mentioning.

I agree that the criteria is not all about perfect control, but babel, do you really think it was Rossi's intention to go off track or was that a 'mistake'??? If you look at the vid, Rossi does try to outbrake Stoner coming up to the corkscrew, but he braked so late that he ran wide--that is the mistake in my opinion. He then corrected and came back into the track. Twice he crossed Stoner's line. 1. When Vale attempted to outbrake, and 2. when he rejoined the track. Is that what you call a "move"? Even accepting that it was intentional to outbrake, which is a racing "move", but when you make a mistake in that "move" it no longer can be said it was praiseworthy simply because it didn't end in a crash. This happens plenty of times in a race, a rider will run wide because they don't scrub enough speed on late braking. Simply because nobody was there for them to crash into doesn't make this a praiseworthy "move". I call that a mistake that didn't have dire consequences.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Feb 14 2009, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i can see your point and yes it will be a remebered race but if it was stoner that made that move on the corkscrew would that still be "worth" remembering? or would you have said stoner was out of control?

i will still remember casey going around the outside of rossi i remember flying out my chair and almost busting the tv remote in my hand cos it was a view from on the bike and to me it felt as if he was going to lose it, it felt like i was riding the bike, it was very on the edge and exciting for me even tho im a rossi fan.

if stoner did these things instead of rossi then i'd be a fan of his.. i think only lorenzo or dovi would try a pass like this apart from rossi. i can't really answer your question because i don't remember any "questionable" move from stoner these two years. and i think the best race of the 800s was catalunya 07. don't think of me that because i am a fan of rossi means i am not seeing what everyone else is doing. at least i think i try. i do admire stoner for being the fastest man and for giving rossi a hard time.. plus you have to lose too in order to know how to win and that is what stoner did to rossi at 07. anyway.. an action is judged by its result and the result was the best 2008 moment so i can't say that it was a mistake..

also, because it has happened to me, sometimes while being in the racetrack you start thinking that i wont let my opponent win no matter what and i will do whatever it takes to pass him.. this logic might lead to both of you crashing but it also can lead yourself to victory.. and the difference is that whoever thinks more defensively and waits, may as well settle for second or third or whatever.. in order to win first of all you must want to win more than everyone else! i don't know if i got off topic sorry.. and i try to use my english as good as i can..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Feb 14 2009, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>WFT, may as well join in.

IMO, I agree fully that the 'supposed pass' at the Corkscrew was a mistake that worked out and I put that down to the skillso f both riders to firtly remain cool/calm and in control of the situation even though it was out of control. Yes, I believe now as I did then that the re-entry by VR was extremely dangerous but also I recognise that he validly had no option and do believe that CS realised this and therefore was ready.

A mistake yes, IMO a pass no (and I agree that a pass is more clinincal, surgical and calculated).

Gary, I think Rossi did have a choice but he stubbornly rejoined after he had ran off and wide. It’s a basic attitude he is known for, which has served him well his whole career. It’s a bit of aggressive/man up/bullying. Its his track and everybody else be damned, a killer instinct. I admire some of it actually, but if you have two sharks like that, then you have a crash. Up until now, I can't think of another rider that has that killer instinct. And if they do bump, as Elias did in Turkey, what happens? Everybody jumps on the guy for being too dangerous, right? Stoner didn't back down, which I admire about him, notwithstanding, I also think Casey has a slight more preservation of life and limb mentality than Rossi. I admire them both.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Feb 15 2009, 01:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gary, I think Rossi did have a choice but he stubbornly rejoined after he had ran off and wide. It’s a basic attitude he is known for, which has served him well his whole career. It’s a bit of aggressive/man up/bullying. Its his track and everybody else be damned, a killer instinct. I admire some of it actually, but if you have two sharks like that, then you have a crash. Up until now, I can't think of another rider that has that killer instinct. And if they do bump, as Elias did in Turkey, what happens? Everybody jumps on the guy for being too dangerous, right? Stoner didn't back down, which I admire about him, notwithstanding, I also think Casey has a slight more preservation of life and limb mentality than Rossi. I admire them both.


I agree with what you are saying in that VR did not necessarily have to re-enter that track at the point he did, but I also believe that once he had made teh decision to ride the line he did (once off-track) then he had no other option but to enter at the time and place he di. But (and I think I said this at the time), were it not for CS's ability and I suspect vision than he (CS) would definitely have been down whilst VR owuld likely have been down. But it did not happen and therefore is a mute point in terms of discussion, but yes IMO it was a 'bully boy' approach from VR and something that he does show from time to time.

With regards to CS's 'self preservation' I do believe that you are 100% right as IMO he does not have VR's ego as CS does not have the off-circuit distractions/opportunities (probably wrong wording but I do hope the meaning is understandable). As such I do think that CS will not place himself (or at least try not) in a situation that he considers dangerous and this is why he made the post race comments (leaving aside individual opinions of right vs wrong).

Both are incredibly good racers, both are incredibly good riders and IMO both are incredibly good for the sport as a whole both current and future and like you I have total respect for them both and just look forward to more battles, although I suspect we will see other players this year as well.





Gaz

Gee you guys! ...... it was probably the most dumbassed mistake I have ever seen ........ he just plain went in too hot at the top of the corkscrew, and was "f'ing" lucky it was Stoner beside him and not DePuniet ....... I dread to think what coukd have happened had that been the case.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 15 2009, 02:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gee you guys! ...... it was probably the most dumbassed mistake I have ever seen ........ he just plain went in too hot at the top of the corkscrew, and was "f'ing" lucky it was Stoner beside him and not DePuniet ....... I dread to think what coukd have happened had that been the case.


One only has to look at initial reaction wo the Rossi/DePuniet incident earlier in the year to find out.






Garry