VR46 MotoGP

moto vudu said:

The general sentiment in this thread is that all other riders are good and Rossi is bad.

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Absurd reductionist argument.

People have written at length as to why Rossi is bad for the sport of MotoGP. You have never agreed because I think I've seen you trot out in bygone years the argument that he made MotoGP bigger than it ever was as justification for any of his less than savory behaviors on or off track.

I subscribe to the philosophy that no one rider/athlete is bigger than the sport that they perform in. Although in the case of Rossi, this belief is quite prominent, and comes out in full-force when you see his cult defending his still having a ride on the grid while conveniently ignoring that any other rider would have long ago been culled from the grid based on what he's been doing in recent memory.

Here's the other thing, the other riders on the grid haven't tried to hold the sport or teams hostage to get their way. Remember Rossi threatening to quit GP if he didn't get Bridgestone tires for 2008? And then he suddenly had them while his teammate had to continue riding a Michelin-shod M1.

Rossi's successes on-track are well-documented; pole positions, race wins, fastest laps, and world titles.

But his unsavory behaviors have also been well-documented, and I'd hold the same distaste for any rider that's conducted a now 2 decades long assault on the entire sport in so many different ways, that all of it collectively was horrible for the sport as a whole. Some of it unfortunately was made possible by the fact that those charged with enforcing rules and regulations chose not to do so because of who he was. He was allowed to operate by a different set of standards that had the net effect of moving the goalposts to such a length, that it normalized all of that behavior. Even worse is that many of the on-track moves he made in his prime pushed the boundaries of fair play, yet are now considered perfectly normal racing maneuvers because no one wanted to be an adult and say no to it. Sepang 2015 was the culmination of everything bad that Rossi brought to grand prix motorcycle racing's top class since he showed up in 2000. Any other rider would have been black-flagged over what happened that day. He wasn't. He should have been kicked out of the world championship at that point and banned from the season ender at Valencia. He wasn't.

This is the end result of building a sport's marketing campaign around one personality and being so consumed with the pursuit of revenue generation, that one man is given near carte blanche to do whatever he pleases even if it comes at the expense of the sport collectively.

JPSLotus said:

Absurd reductionist argument.

People have written at length as to why Rossi is bad for the sport of MotoGP. You have never agreed because I think I've seen you trot out in bygone years the argument that he made MotoGP bigger than it ever was as justification for any of his less than savory behaviors on or off track.

I subscribe to the philosophy that no one rider/athlete is bigger than the sport that they perform in. Although in the case of Rossi, this belief is quite prominent, and comes out in full-force when you see his cult defending his still having a ride on the grid while conveniently ignoring that any other rider would have long ago been culled from the grid based on what he's been doing in recent memory.

Here's the other thing, the other riders on the grid haven't tried to hold the sport or teams hostage to get their way. Remember Rossi threatening to quit GP if he didn't get Bridgestone tires for 2008? And then he suddenly had them while his teammate had to continue riding a Michelin-shod M1.

Rossi's successes on-track are well-documented; pole positions, race wins, fastest laps, and world titles.

But his unsavory behaviors have also been well-documented, and I'd hold the same distaste for any rider that's conducted a now 2 decades long assault on the entire sport in so many different ways, that all of it collectively was horrible for the sport as a whole. Some of it unfortunately was made possible by the fact that those charged with enforcing rules and regulations chose not to do so because of who he was. He was allowed to operate by a different set of standards that had the net effect of moving the goalposts to such a length, that it normalized all of that behavior. Even worse is that many of the on-track moves he made in his prime pushed the boundaries of fair play, yet are now considered perfectly normal racing maneuvers because no one wanted to be an adult and say no to it. Sepang 2015 was the culmination of everything bad that Rossi brought to grand prix motorcycle racing's top class since he showed up in 2000. Any other rider would have been black-flagged over what happened that day. He wasn't. He should have been kicked out of the world championship at that point and banned from the season ender at Valencia. He wasn't.

This is the end result of building a sport's marketing campaign around one personality and being so consumed with the pursuit of revenue generation, that one man is given near carte blanche to do whatever he pleases even if it comes at the expense of the sport collectively.

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Bad for the sport? If it weren't for Rossi, MotoGP would have ratings on par with WSBK or BSB. Like him or hate him, many people started watching the races because of him. Even those who are fans of Rossi's rivals, they tune in to see them win. Rossi popularity brought MotoGP into the living rooms of people would've never shown interest in the sport and that helped the sport grow.

This forum is full of diehard fans who take issue with Rossi's off-track antics, yet STILL can't help but center the majority of threads around him. Why can't Miller have a 10 page thread about his progress in GP? Fabio? Mir? Again, nobody cares to talk about any of the other riders as much as Rossi. ....... Tito Rabat could win the next race but if Rossi ...... up under braking and took out another rider, he would be the primary post-race talking point. Nobody would give a .... about Rabat's miraculous accomplishment.

Hate Rossi all you want, but to say he has hurt MotoGP is ridiculous. He has provided all the drama over the years and brought money and fans the sport needed.

Started following the sport when Kenny Roberts went to Europe when it was still called Formula One. Even then it had crowds ten times the size of any race in AMA Superbike, including the Daytona 200 and ever since world-wide live broadcasts became a thing, it’s following has continued to expand, all without the assistance of Rossi. People who were in diapers back then, seem to believe that MotoGp was just some roadside carnival exhibition before Rossi showed his face. Sure Rossi has attracted fans, but more importantly, what made the sport grow was television and the internet, the combination of which made the sport much more attractive to corporate sponsors, the funding from whom, made possible huge budgets for PR and advertising.

And if you want to talk “personality” you can’t discount the amount of attention the racing world paid, when American, California red neck Roberts came and out of the box, started beating the European riders at tracks they’d been riding at for decades. And that excitement didn’t die with Roberts’ retirement. Big-... excitement as one American rider after another came to European tracks and whooped ..., pretty much right up till the end of 2006. Attendance at the Transatlantic Match races were ....... HUGE! As were Jeff Duke’s sales of videos of those races. Having avidly followed the sport through all this time, seriously puts Rossi’s influence into perspective.

moto vudu said:

Bad for the sport? If it weren't for Rossi, MotoGP would have ratings on par with WSBK or BSB. Like him or hate him, many people started watching the races because of him. Even those who are fans of Rossi's rivals, they tune in to see them win. Rossi popularity brought MotoGP into the living rooms of people would've never shown interest in the sport and that helped the sport grow.

This forum is full of diehard fans who take issue with Rossi's off-track antics, yet STILL can't help but center the majority of threads around him. Why can't Miller have a 10 page thread about his progress in GP? Fabio? Mir? Again, nobody cares to talk about any of the other riders as much as Rossi. ....... Tito Rabat could win the next race but if Rossi ...... up under braking and took out another rider, he would be the primary post-race talking point. Nobody would give a .... about Rabat's miraculous accomplishment.

Hate Rossi all you want, but to say he has hurt MotoGP is ridiculous. He has provided all the drama over the years and brought money and fans the sport needed.

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It's good to see you picked up right where you left off, as Saint Valentino's Defender.

Did you ever think a lot of fans got sick of Rossi being shoved down their throats for years as the greatest motorcycle rider to ever ride and being told grand prix motorcycle racing history apparently on starts with Valentino's arrival in the premier class?

This pushback was a long time in the making, and after being gone after by Rossi's fanbase for years for not supporting their cult leader, people had enough.

You still haven't figured out MotoGP/grand prix motorcycle racing would be here even if Rossi never existed. And to say it wouldn't have turned into what it is without him is an unprovable statement that serves no purpose. And really...why do I give a .... about how much money he made or makes Dorna? I have no money invested in Dorna, therefore the amount of ..... I can give about their financial bottom line is zero.

p4p1 said:

This is the point, some of his fans, obviously not you as this thread highlights are contorting themselves to rationalise the decision and say it OK when by any measurement it certainly isn't OK.

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That's why we call them the Valeban.

JPSLotus said:

It's good to see you picked up right where you left off, as Saint Valentino's Defender.

Did you ever think a lot of fans got sick of Rossi being shoved down their throats for years as the greatest motorcycle rider to ever ride and being told grand prix motorcycle racing history apparently on starts with Valentino's arrival in the premier class?

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You've picked up right where you left off as well. Still obsessed with Rossi but think that as long as what you post is negative, you're somehow better than someone who likes him. You're the opposite side of the same "bopper" coin.

During his prime he was the greatest rider and you can't control what fans say. Were Michael Jordan fans not telling everyone he was the greatest to ever touch a basketball? It is what it is.

This pushback was a long time in the making, and after being gone after by Rossi's fanbase for years for not supporting their cult leader, people had enough.

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This pushback is limited to small corners of the internet. Rossi still receives a great deal of positive support.

You still haven't figured out MotoGP/grand prix motorcycle racing would be here even if Rossi never existed. And to say it wouldn't have turned into what it is without him is an unprovable statement that serves no purpose. And really...why do I give a .... about how much money he made or makes Dorna? I have no money invested in Dorna, therefore the amount of ..... I can give about their financial bottom line is zero.

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Motorcycle racing began long before Rossi came into the sport, but when Rossi arrived he brought something more. He brought drama & entertainment and the masses loved him for it. That's why he is the most popular motorcycle racer to have ever lived. He did more than just win, he made the sport more entertaining. He has even entertained you which is why you don't mind spending some free time talking about him/racing on this forum.

Keshav said:

Started following the sport when Kenny Roberts went to Europe when it was still called Formula One. Even then it had crowds ten times the size of any race in AMA Superbike, including the Daytona 200 and ever since world-wide live broadcasts became a thing, it’s following has continued to expand, all without the assistance of Rossi. People who were in diapers back then, seem to believe that MotoGp was just some roadside carnival exhibition before Rossi showed his face. Sure Rossi has attracted fans, but more importantly, what made the sport grow was television and the internet, the combination of which made the sport much more attractive to corporate sponsors, the funding from whom, made possible huge budgets for PR and advertising.

And if you want to talk “personality” you can’t discount the amount of attention the racing world paid, when American, California red neck Roberts came and out of the box, started beating the European riders at tracks they’d been riding at for decades. And that excitement didn’t die with Roberts’ retirement. Big-... excitement as one American rider after another came to European tracks and whooped ..., pretty much right up till the end of 2006. Attendance at the Transatlantic Match races were ....... HUGE! As were Jeff Duke’s sales of videos of those races. Having avidly followed the sport through all this time, seriously puts Rossi’s influence into perspective.

Click to expand...

To put Rossi's influence into perspective. Roberts, Schwantz, Rainey, etc., are respected, but no where near as recognized around the world as Rossi and they're relatively unknown to anyone who doesn't follow racing. Many non-racing fans know of Valentino, Schumacher, and Hamilton.

Sure, other racers have been popular and generated excitement, but no where near what Rossi accomplished. His races, rival battles, and off-track shenanigans were recognized and applauded by more than just motorcycle racing diehards.

birdman said:

Rossi is doing this for money and power, or to save Saudi Arabian’s and the world at large with a theme park devoted to him.

Occam’s razor vs cognitive dissonance.

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Congnitive dissonance is a well established human psychologic defence mechanism. We all indulge in the practice in one way or the other. The thing is the one engaged in it will not be aware unless willing to see it for what it is. Anyway....

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/dirty-money-in-motogp-its-nothing-new

That article nicely sums up the point that I'm making. Rossi's latest sponsor partnership is business as usual... a dirty business that needs to be called out for what it is. Otherwise, it will continue as in politics where it's not about whether or not you do it, but whether or not you get caught.

Rossi became anti-tobacco when tobacco sponsorship was banned in the EU and the writing was on the wall that staying dependent on tobacco sponsorship would not at all be wise. I seriously doubt it was a moral decision on his part, whether or not he chose to frame his reasoning to the public, 'to look good'. I don't know if he did this or if fans of the sport reading more into his statements than intended/meant.

Sponsorship opportunities are at an all-time low with the COVID pandemic. Saudi sponsorship of sports, especially motorsport, is on the rise. Rossi, as with the tobacco days prior to its being banned, is now taking sponsorship wherever he can get it. Rossi isn't the only one that will do this and the motorsport tradition has been to engage in obtaining sponsorship from shady sources. This is likely why they have been quiet about it.

BTW, there are serious human rights issues in Bahrain and FIM was taken to task for holding a GP event in the country especially during a period of protests against human rights. FIM's statement was that they are a sporting body and not a political body. It's not for them to get involved in such matters but the governments of countries opposing the human rights problems. Qatar has its problems as well.

When you look closer, if you're willing to, there's a much bigger picture to see and Rossi is simply a pawn in it, hungry for sponsorship money and survival, as any other. He will not dip in his own pocket either (and if so, not very deeply), that's for sure.

So to your statement on
'Occam’s razor vs cognitive dissonance.'
I'd say that it is Occam's razor with cognitive dissonance at play in the minds of Dorna, Motorsport and its fans alike. Many years of denial in order to enjoy racing or watching racing.

No point in singling out Rossi.... it's just another dissonant move and nice fodder for Rossi haters. A more rounded article would have been to indicate what he has done and criticise the governing body for endorsing it through their complicity and also that the practice of shady sponsorship dealing needs to end.

moto vudu said:

To put Rossi's influence into perspective. Roberts, Schwantz, Rainey, etc., are respected, but no where near as recognized around the world as Rossi and they're relatively unknown to anyone who doesn't follow racing. Many non-racing fans know of Valentino, Schumacher, and Hamilton.

Sure, other racers have been popular and generated excitement, but no where near what Rossi accomplished. His races, rival battles, and off-track shenanigans were recognized and applauded by more than just motorcycle racing diehards.

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I don’t think anyone denies he is popular, and no-one should deny his greatness as a rider during his very long prime.

This doesn’t excuse the vilification of most of his rivals, and riders like Stoner and Lorenzo didn’t deserve to be made miserable by means other than being beaten on the track, only imo of course, and whatever 2015 may have proved to you it proved to me that it wasn’t just an extreme element among his fans which is where I placed the blame previously, but that Rossi was fully complicit if not orchestrating the campaigns against his rivals. I guess some of them have made more money than they otherwise would have done though.

moto vudu said:

To put Rossi's influence into perspective. Roberts, Schwantz, Rainey, etc., are respected, but no where near as recognized around the world as Rossi and they're relatively unknown to anyone who doesn't follow racing. Many non-racing fans know of Valentino, Schumacher, and Hamilton.

Sure, other racers have been popular and generated excitement, but no where near what Rossi accomplished. His races, rival battles, and off-track shenanigans were recognized and applauded by more than just motorcycle racing diehards.

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And there you go, right to the heart of what makes the Valeban tick. Celebrity. His popularity has less to do with his accomplishments and more to do with being famous for being famous. There has been and always will be in the world, people who become obsessively invested in celebrities for a variety of reasons:

Some are socially maladept and have no real friends

Some live in abject poverty and fantasize about some celebrity Prince Charming lifting up their sad lives

Some have no self-esteem and come to believe that their imagined connection to a celebrity somehow raises them up in the eyes of the world

Some suffer from erotomania believing that the celebrity with whom they are obsessed with is utilizing the media as a way to communicate with them by sending special messages or signals.

Some are housewives leading lives of boredom and drudgery, relieved only by escapist fantasies about famous people.

Essentially - the encompassing equation amounts to: Unhappy people living vicariously through the lives and accomplishments of a person who doesn't know they exist.

As to your assertion re: Rossi having many people who continues to venerate him, the same can be said of Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler and Bugs Bunny.

misfit said:

Congnitive dissonance is a well established human psychologic defence mechanism. We all indulge in the practice in one way or the other. The thing is the one engaged in it will not be aware unless willing to see it for what it is. Anyway....

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/dirty-money-in-motogp-its-nothing-new

That article nicely sums up the point that I'm making. Rossi's latest sponsor partnership is business as usual... a dirty business that needs to be called out for what it is. Otherwise, it will continue as in politics where it's not about whether or not you do it, but whether or not you get caught.

Rossi became anti-tobacco when tobacco sponsorship was banned in the EU and the writing was on the wall that staying dependent on tobacco sponsorship would not at all be wise. I seriously doubt it was a moral decision on his part, whether or not he chose to frame his reasoning to the public, 'to look good'. I don't know if he did this or if fans of the sport reading more into his statements than intended/meant.

Sponsorship opportunities are at an all-time low with the COVID pandemic. Saudi sponsorship of sports, especially motorsport, is on the rise. Rossi, as with the tobacco days prior to its being banned, is now taking sponsorship wherever he can get it. Rossi isn't the only one that will do this and the motorsport tradition has been to engage in obtaining sponsorship from shady sources. This is likely why they have been quiet about it.

BTW, there are serious human rights issues in Bahrain and FIM was taken to task for holding a GP event in the country especially during a period of protests against human rights. FIM's statement was that they are a sporting body and not a political body. It's not for them to get involved in such matters but the governments of countries opposing the human rights problems. Qatar has its problems as well.

When you look closer, if you're willing to, there's a much bigger picture to see and Rossi is simply a pawn in it, hungry for sponsorship money and survival, as any other. He will not dip in his own pocket either (and if so, not very deeply), that's for sure.

So to your statement on
'Occam’s razor vs cognitive dissonance.'
I'd say that it is Occam's razor with cognitive dissonance at play in the minds of Dorna, Motorsport and its fans alike. Many years of denial in order to enjoy racing or watching racing.

No point in singling out Rossi.... it's just another dissonant move and nice fodder for Rossi haters. A more rounded article would have been to indicate what he has done and criticise the governing body for endorsing it through their complicity and also that the practice of shady sponsorship dealing needs to end.

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Well of course Rossi did it for good publicity. Totally a cynical bid to gain public goodwill.

I absolutely do find fault with the FIM for having races on Saudi land. They say it's not for them to make a case against human rights violations. Well of course not. After all they're not human beings - are they??? Where did anyone get that idea?

As to Rossi being a pawn: Mate, THAT, is a bridge too far. He's the single-most influential guy in the paddock. Hi survival is assured. If he can't start up a team without taking blood money, he should go home and spend his days diving into a swimming pool filled with the millions of Euros he's earned over the course of his career.

Keshav said:

And there you go, right to the heart of what makes the Valeban tick. Celebrity. His popularity has little to do with his accomplishments. He's famous for being famous. There has been and always will be in the world, people become obsessively invested in celebrities for a variety of reasons:

Some are socially maladept and have no real friends

Some live in abject poverty and fantasize about some celebrity Prince Charming lifting up their sad lives

Some have no self-esteem and come to believe that their imagined connection to a celebrity somehow raises them up in the eyes of the world

Some suffer from erotomania believing that the celebrity with whom they are obsessed with is utilizing the media as a way to communicate with them by sending special messages or signals.

Some are housewives leading lives of boredom and drudgery, relieved only by fantasies about famous people.

Essentially - the encompassing equation amounts to: Unhappy people living vicariously through the lives and accomplishments of a person who doesn't know they exist.

As to your assertion re: Rossi having many people who continues to venerate him, the same can be said of Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler and Popeye.

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Perhaps getting into Godwin's law territory.

All three of Stoner, Lorenzo and MM are perhaps somewhat prickly characters, so not being absolute fan favourites is perhaps somewhat understandable if not justifying the belittlement of the former two, MM being such that not much can be said except for disliking him.

The bigger thing for me is Nicky Hayden, as sterling a character/as thoroughly decent a human being as could be found by an extensive search for months or years, and he was still belittled after winning his title.

Keshav said:

Essentially - the encompassing equation amounts to: Unhappy people hating the life and accomplishments of a person who doesn't know they exist.

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Edited to represent you on this forum.

moto vudu said:

Edited to represent you on this forum.

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Again with the personal attacks. Again with no substantive rebuttal.

Keshav said:

Again with the personal attacks. Again with no substantive rebuttal.

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You haven't been personally attacked. I just flipped your assessment around to represent your stance on this forum. I guess you can dish it out, but can't take it.

moto vudu said:

You haven't been personally attacked. I just flipped your assessment around to represent your stance on this forum. I guess you can dish it out, but can't take it.

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Stuff like this just makes you another custard clad, MAGA hat wearing Texan.

Don't worry bud, everyone on this forum stopped taking you seriously years ago.

JPSLotus said:

Stuff like this just makes you another custard clad, MAGA hat wearing Texan.

Don't worry bud, everyone on this forum stopped taking you seriously years ago.

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Funny you're attempting to personally attack me when the last time you did that I made you go crying to Duc. But enough of that, why do you hate me? I'm not even Texan and I haven't lived there in a long time. MAGA hat? I guess I would wear one if Make America Great Again referred to the time period before English settlers in 1607. :whistling:

moto vudu said:

You haven't been personally attacked. I just flipped your assessment around to represent your stance on this forum. I guess you can dish it out, but can't take it.

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It’s really not a question of being able to take it. I am not a thin skinned person. I enjoy these dialogs, but don’t seriously expect to change anyone’s mind. I don’t as you think, hate Rossi, I just dislike his behavior. And I don’t respect people who have great power and influence, when they only use it for their own personal gain without regards to the greater good.

I am not a hater or a hateful person. I don’t hate you. I have a great group of friends, and this may surprise you, but not all my friends think exactly like me. I actually have friends who are Republicans. Intelligent Republicans, with whom I can dialogue and strongly disagree, without having a discussion devolve into tribal hatreds. From where I stand, it doesn’t seem like this discussion has any further potential. I don’t want this to devolve into a flame war, where you and I constantly snipe at each other over the course of other threads. It’s pointless and and bores everybody to death.

Keshav said:

It’s really not a question of being able to take it. I am not a thin skinned person. I enjoy these dialogs, but don’t seriously expect to change anyone’s mind. I don’t as you think, hate Rossi, I just dislike his behavior. And I don’t respect people who have great power and influence, when they only use it for their own personal gain without regards to the greater good.

I am not a hater or a hateful person. I don’t hate you. I have a great group of friends, and this may surprise you, but not all my friends think exactly like me. I actually have friends who are Republicans. Intelligent Republicans, with whom I can dialogue and strongly disagree, without having a discussion devolve into tribal hatreds. From where I stand, it doesn’t seem like this discussion has any further potential. I don’t want this to devolve into a flame war, where you and I constantly snipe at each other over the course of other threads. It’s pointless and and bores everybody to death.

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I don't expect everyone to like Rossi and I don't expect to change the minds of those that don't like him. That said, if I constantly made threads and posts criticizing Marquez, I would expect some opposing views and even welcome them.

What I notice here is when there is a string of anti-Rossi threads or posts, if anyone has a different opinion or defends Rossi it causes a lot of anger from certain people. Some people here have more PTSD from Rossi than his past rivals such as Biaggi or Gibernau.

JPSLotus said:

Stuff like this just makes you another custard clad, MAGA hat wearing Texan.

Don't worry bud, everyone on this forum stopped taking you seriously years ago.

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Not all for sure. I've not been here for many years (only 2), and do take Moto Vudu's comments as seriously as all the others I care to read.