VR46 MotoGP

moto vudu said:

You're right, you're not the subject of the thread. It's that you and p4p1 can't resist focusing on whatever Rossi did or does and attempt to condemn all of it even though what you're attempting to condemn him for is something Repsol/Marquez have already been doing!! But you think Rossi is worse because 15 years ago he chose to stop riding with tobacco sponsorship?!

P4p1 would never have made this thread to focus on Repsol's ties to Saudi oil money! The root of the issue is that even though Rossi hasn't been competitive, he's still more influential than Marquez and that bothers you! Marc damn near ended his career again in FP3, so you're looking for someone else to direct your negative energy toward. Don't worry about Marquez, he is getting plenty of Big Oil money to assist him!

Please define blood money! You're living in a country founded on crimes against humanity and likely typing on a computer built in a country currently committing atrocious acts against humanity while you display fake outrage about VR46 accepting a sponsorship from the SAME company Repsol does business with! Oh but you're not the subject of the thread so you don't want anyone to point out your own hypocrisy!

Just say you don't like Rossi and leave it at that. Your fake humanitarian act is pathetic. Rossi has done more positive for the sport than any other rider and this deal with Aramco isn't harming anyone.

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Show me where and when Marquez publicized himself as a righteous guy who wouldn’t take money from a corporation that makes billions of dollars from people who profit from a product that kills and maims hundreds of thousands of people every year. You can’t. Never happened.

You say Rossi would not ride with tobacco sponsorship. Did you stop watching the sport all the years when he was on the Ducati???

Let’s be clear: I’m not outraged. Clearly, it’s yourself who is outraged, at the way mere mortals dare to expose the great god Rossi as just another opportunistic guy, willing to take money for the purposes of creating good publicity for slimy people who murder journalists for the sin of speaking their mind. The same slime who make women walk around in giant black garbage bags 110 degree weather. The same ........ who locked up workers in the pandemic, with no medical care so the could die by the dozens in an airless room thousands of miles from home. Anyone who so directly aids and abets this stuff for the sake having the #46 on a glamorous race team deserves to be exposed for what he is.

If you want to give your seal of approval on practices such as torture, murder of journalists and oppression of women, that’s your right. That’s one of the great things about the free world; the right to express a opinion. If however you were to go to Saudi Arabia and walk around with your wife or girlfriend in a short sleeved shirt and one of you mentioned that the king looked a little peaked today, you might spend the next two decades in a dungeon eating bread and water, if that is... you weren’t beheaded. And while you were lying there in the dungeon sitting in your own filth, ....... Valentino Rossi would be out there promoting the wonderfulness of the guys who put you in prison.

Keshav said:

Show me where and when Marquez publicized himself as a righteous guy who wouldn’t take money from a corporation that makes billions of dollars from people who profit from a product that kills and maims hundreds of thousands of people every year. You can’t. Never happened.

You say Rossi would not ride with tobacco sponsorship. Did you stop watching the sport all the years when he was on the Ducati???

Let’s be clear: I’m not outraged. Clearly, it’s yourself who is outraged, at the way mere mortals dare to expose the great god Rossi as just another opportunistic guy, willing to take money for the purposes of creating good publicity for slimy people who murder journalists for the sin of speaking their mind. The same slime who make women walk around in giant black garbage bags 110 degree weather. The same ........ who locked up workers in the pandemic, with no medical care so the could die by the dozens in an airless room thousands of miles from home. Anyone who so directly aids and abets this stuff for the sake having the #46 on a glamorous race team deserves to be exposed for what he is.

If you want to give your seal of approval on practices such as torture, murder of journalists and oppression of women, that’s your right. That’s one of the great things about the free world; the right to express a opinion. If however you were to go to Saudi Arabia and walk around with your wife or girlfriend in a short sleeved shirt and one of you mentioned that the king looked a little peaked today, you might spend the next two decades in a dungeon eating bread and water, if that is... you weren’t beheaded. And while you were lying there in the dungeon sitting in your own filth, ....... Valentino Rossi would be out there promoting the wonderfulness of the guys who put you in prison.

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You do seem outraged I have to say. The loss of perspective comes with it. I do think you have Rossi's purpose wrong and furthermore, I do think you know it. But only an angry mind would draw such a conclusion from VR46 taking sponsorship funding from the Saudis. You could call it selfish, shortsighted or whatever. However, your stated purpose is way out of line..

misfit said:

You do seem outraged I have to say. The loss of perspective comes with it. I do think you have Rossi's purpose wrong and furthermore, I do think you know it. But only an angry mind would draw such a conclusion from VR46 taking sponsorship funding from the Saudis. You could call it selfish, shortsighted or whatever. However, your stated purpose is way out of line..

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Again, not outraged at Rossi. Outraged at what the Saudis do. I’ve never had sufficient regard for Rossi as a human being, to fuel a degree of disappointment that would amount to “outrage”.

The best spin one could apply would be that Rossi is so naive of culture and world politics that he is without a clue to the practices of the people whose money he proposes to accept. Is that what you’re saying? If not, then the only other conclusion is that he is fully aware and chooses to accept money from scummy people, with the full knowledge of the benefits of high profile sponsorship. I don’t think it’s a giant leap of logic to say, that after decades in the business, that Valentino Rossi fully comprehends why people give him millions of dollars to have their name plastered on his leathers and his bikes and all over his garage. It’s promotion is it not? This is not a question of analogy. It’s clear and concise. One gets paid money to promote the sponsor. You can’t promote the Saudi brand and somehow surgically remove the political and cultural connections. Human rights violations are not a tiny tumor in the body of the Saudi power structure, it’s the brain and nervous system that runs the show.

Keshav said:

Show me where and when Marquez publicized himself as a righteous guy who wouldn’t take money from a corporation that makes billions of dollars from people who profit from a product that kills and maims hundreds of thousands of people every year. You can’t. Never happened.

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You made Marquez look like a real POS.

moto vudu said:

You made Marquez look like a real POS.

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LOL - Entertain us please with the logic you’ll use to come to that conclusion. I can tell, this is going to be golden.

Keshav said:

LOL - Entertain us please with the logic you’ll use to come to that conclusion. I can tell, this is going to be golden.

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Read your own post! You chose to highlight that Marquez never said he wouldn't take money from sources associated with human rights violations. You've backfired p4p1's thread since you've made Marquez look worse than Rossi.

Keshav said:

Again, not outraged at Rossi. Outraged at what the Saudis do. I’ve never had sufficient regard for Rossi as a human being, to fuel a degree of disappointment that would amount to “outrage”.

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I don't get it.... you have sufficient regard for the Saudis then?

Keshav said:

The best spin one could apply would be that Rossi is so naive of culture and world politics that he is without a clue to the practices of the people whose money he proposes to accept. Is that what you’re saying?

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I do feel he has a clue.

Keshav said:

If not, then the only other conclusion is that he is fully aware and chooses to accept money from scummy people, with the full knowledge of the benefits of high profile sponsorship. I don’t think it’s a giant leap of logic to say, that after decades in the business, that Valentino Rossi fully comprehends why people give him millions of dollars to have their name plastered on his leathers and his bikes and all over his garage.

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I'm saying that it amounts to cognitive dissonance. If you're doing something you know isn't right, it brings up a conflict. One way to deal with it, is to somehow justify what it is you're doing by rationalising it. You could also deny or downplay it in the smokescreen of arguments such as:
- well it's for a good cause
- well, so many others are doing it
- well, it's nowhere near as bad as what that person or that group over there is doing.
- well, I'm not directly responsible for the decision or the behaviour of others, all while supporting it indirectly or even more insidiously, benefiting from it.

Those who benefit from, but do not directly support, the shady works of others will always play innocent, but are they really?

This is where michaelm's 'pot calling kettle' argument comes into play.
One final important work of the dissonant mind is to call out others for their bad deeds as a distraction. The more you're aware of your own shady conduct or how much you have and continue to benefit from and are complicit with the shady behaviour of others, the less outrage there is.

Afterall, this sort of outrage and conflict is at the root of the problem, isn't it?

Keshav said:

It’s promotion is it not?

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Rossi cares about his team's financial viability. That's what he's promoting. To what expense? Well, we could ask Dorna, FIM, the US government etc. etc. etc. the very same question.

Keshav said:

This is not a question of analogy.

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...but comparison is appropriate. This is the only way to call the 'pot' out for calling the 'kettle' black.

Keshav said:

It’s clear and concise.

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Conveniently so. That is the paradoxical smokescreen. This is about condemnation and taking the moral high ground. Let's not make this about Rossi.

Keshav said:

One gets paid money to promote the sponsor. You can’t promote the Saudi brand and somehow surgically remove the political and cultural connections. Human rights violations are not a tiny tumor in the body of the Saudi power structure, it’s the brain and nervous system that runs the show.

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What are YOU doing about it? How are YOU benefiting from it?? How have YOU benefited, been complicit, continue to benefit, continue to be complicit in such shady behaviour. Promoters have no interest in promoting, if they don't have customers/consumers!! You have a responsibility as well and not only Rossi. Until Rossi starts directly perpetrating crimes against humanity, he is no different from us.

moto vudu said:

Read your own post! You chose to highlight that Marquez never said he wouldn't take money from sources associated with human rights violations. You've backfired p4p1's thread since you've made Marquez look worse than Rossi.

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Still talking in riddles. In what way does Marquez look worse?

misfit said:

I don't get it.... you have sufficient regard for the Saudis then?

I haven’t made that sufficiently clear?

I do feel he has a clue.

A clue? Anyone who’s read a newspaper in the last 40 years has more than “a clue”. Anyone who’s spent as much time at the center of an international sport for decades knows the ins and out of the politics that affect the sport0.


I'm saying that it amounts to cognitive dissonance. If you're doing something you know isn't right, it brings up a conflict. One way to deal with it, is to somehow justify what it is you're doing by rationalising it. You could also deny or downplay it in the smokescreen of arguments such as:
- well it's for a good cause
- well, so many others are doing it
- well, it's nowhere near as bad as what that person or that group over there is doing.
- well, I'm not directly responsible for the decision or the behaviour of others, all while supporting it indirectly or even more insidiously, benefiting from it.

Those who benefit from, but do not directly support, the shady works of others will always play innocent, but are they really?

So... you’re saying Rossi has a cognitive dissonance and therefore is not responsible for his actions???

This is where michaelm's 'pot calling kettle' argument comes into play.
One final important work of the dissonant mind is to call out others for their bad deeds as a distraction. The more you're aware of your own shady conduct or how much you have and continue to benefit from and are complicit with the shady behaviour of others, the less outrage there is.

It does rather sound like you are conflating my bias toward compassionate human values with “dissonance”.

Afterall, this sort of outrage and conflict is at the root of the problem, isn't it?

Depends on which problem you are talking about I suppose. My “problem” is that Rossi, who is hero to many, is in reality, a very ordinary horse trader, readily willing to sacrifice his alleged humanitarian values for the sake of gelt for purposes of further promoting his own name on the side of motorcycles. I suspect BTW - that what you frame as outrage, is what we over here think of as passion.

Again, no “outrage” on my re: Rossi per se. I am simply pointing to the dishwater-dull reality of the of a rather ordinary, flawed human that the Rossi fanatics so witlessly venerate.

Rossi cares about his team's financial viability. That's what he's promoting. To what expense? Well, we could ask Dorna, FIM, the US government etc. etc. etc. the very same question.


...but comparison is appropriate. This is the only way to call the 'pot' out for calling the 'kettle' black.



Conveniently so. That is the paradoxical smokescreen. This is about condemnation and taking the moral high ground. Let's not make this about Rossi.

Mate, have you perchance taken a gander at the title of the thread?


What are YOU doing about it? How are YOU benefiting from it?? How have YOU benefited, been complicit, continue to benefit, continue to be complicit in such shady behaviour. Promoters have no interest in promoting, if they don't have customers/consumers!! You have a responsibility as well and not only Rossi. Until Rossi starts directly perpetrating crimes against humanity, he is no different from us.

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Fair question. As a person who through hard work, perhaps some guile, grace and a helping of good luck, I have become quite comfortable to the point that I regularly donate to organizations whose mission is to ameliorate the after effects of big business and governmental corruption. I’ve been involved, on and off for years in various volunteer organizations. One does what one can.

As to Rossi, I would point out again, that as mega-wealthy celebrity, he is in a position to affect positive change. Not saying he should do public service announcement for recycling or whatever, just maybe not take blood money. That would suffice.

Y'know, it occurs to me just now that maybe folks in the medical profession over round your way might also be familiar with concept of primum non nocere. Mayhaps Rossi should be acquainted with the concept, after all, he is known as The Doctor.

Keshav said:

Still talking in riddles. In what way does Marquez look worse?

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Just accept that you've backed yourself into a corner, take your "L" and have a seat. You've implied that Marquez is morally bankrupt which is why he has never said he wouldn't accept "blood money". Contrast that to your claimed issue with Rossi being that he once morally objected tobacco sponsorship, but now has accepted sponsorship from the same Saudi oil company Repsol is partnered with. Like someone already mentioned, if you want to go down the road of questioning all the sponsors and where MotoGP & F1 gets funding, you might as well shut down both championships.

moto vudu said:

P4p1 found the article and brought it here because it fits his agenda. Like I said, he would've ignored the article if it was about Repsol and Saudi.

It's definitely poor journalism to focus on a Rossi/Aramco partnership while not letting the readers know (or not even bothering to research) about the Repsol/Aramco partnership. But that's what journalism is today, it's about trying to tell people what they should think and how they should feel about something by omitting a lot of relevant facts.

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According to their site: Repsol refineries are in Peru and the USA. Not the Middle-East.

Keshav said:

According to their site: Repsol refineries are in Peru and the USA. Not the Middle-East.

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I don't think anyone was referring to where Repsol's refineries are located. I posted an article talking about Repsol's partnership with Saudi's Aramco. In fact, Aramco is currently assisting Repsol with building a synthetic fuel plant in Northern Spain.

MADRID (Reuters) - Spain’s Repsol is bidding for European pandemic recovery funds to support projects including new biofuel plants and ‘green’ hydrogen production made from renewable sources in a pivot away from oil and gas to supplying low-carbon energy.

Spain and Italy, due the biggest chunks of Europe’s 750 billion euro ($884 billion) lifeline in recognition of the damage the pandemic caused their economies, have invited companies to propose projects that could help wean their economies off carbon.

Repsol responded by putting forward 30 projects which it calculates will need total investment of 5.96 billion euros, the company said on Friday.

They include a plant Repsol has agreed in partnership with oil giant Saudi Aramco to build in northern Spain, which will produce synthetic fuel for cars, trucks and aircraft using carbon dioxide captured from a nearby refinery, and hydrogen produced from electricity generated from renewables.

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-energy-eu-repsol-idUSKBN2BI2BL

How does that make you feel inside?

moto vudu said:

I don't think anyone was referring to where Repsol's refineries are located. I posted an article talking about Repsol's partnership with Saudi's Aramco. In fact, Aramco is currently assisting Repsol with building a synthetic fuel plant in Northern Spain.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-energy-eu-repsol-idUSKBN2BI2BL

How does that make you feel inside?

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Synthetic fuel? Hard to say. First I've hear of it. If it's non-polluting, I expect it'll make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

BTW - you still haven's explained about the whole making Marquez look bad thing. You've left us hanging with no explanation.

That Saudis are partnering with Repsol isn't much of a concern. Firstly - Saudi involvement is at a remove. Marquez is not employed by the Saudis and does not promote their brand.

More importantly, Marquez has never pledged to his fans to do anything but win races. As opposed to Rossi who claimed to hold himself to a higher standard.

Keshav said:

Synthetic fuel? Hard to say. First I've hear of it. If it's non-polluting, I expect it'll make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

BTW - you still haven's explained about the whole making Marquez look bad thing. You've left us hanging with no explanation.

That Saudis are partnering with Repsol isn't much of a concern. Firstly - Saudi involvement is at a remove. Marquez is not employed by the Saudis and does not promote their brand.

More importantly, Marquez has never pledged to his fans to do anything but win races. As opposed to Rossi who claimed to hold himself to a higher standard.

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Saudi's Armaco is Repsol's partner so as long as Marquez is flashing Repsol on his bike and leathers he is promoting Saudi (even if indirectly).

You keep pointing out how Marquez doesn't care where his money comes from as long as he gets to race then acting like you don't understand why that makes him look like a POS. So if Repsol was also involved in human trafficking, Marc wouldn't give a damn as long as his checks arrived on time and his bike is fueled and ready to go on race day.

Accepting sponsorship from Saudi Arabia is different from accepting sponsorship from a company (Repsol) that does very minor business with Saudi Arabia.

Very different.

As everyone knows, I really admire what Rossi has brought to the sport, but this decision merits severe criticism.

RCV600RR said:

Accepting sponsorship from Saudi Arabia is different from accepting sponsorship from a company (Repsol) that does very minor business with Saudi Arabia.

Very different.

As everyone knows, I really admire what Rossi has brought to the sport, but this decision merits severe criticism.

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Repsol's partnership with Saudi isn't exactly what I'd call minor since without Saudi's help it's not likely Repsol would be able to sustain it's projects or start new ones.

I highly doubt VR46 sponsor deal comes with Abdulaziz Al Saud's picture on the bike and leathers, burqa wearing umbrella girls, and camels to replace paddock scooters. Casual fans will be completely clueless to the partnership just like they have no idea that Repsol is involved with Saudi.

moto vudu said:

Repsol's partnership with Saudi isn't exactly what I'd call minor since without Saudi's help it's not likely Repsol would be able to sustain it's projects or start new ones.

I highly doubt VR46 sponsor deal comes with Abdulaziz Al Saud's picture on the bike and leathers, burqa wearing umbrella girls, and camels to replace paddock scooters. Casual fans will be completely clueless to the partnership just like they have no idea that Repsol is involved with Saudi.

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You are once again conjuring up false equivalences. There is as 600 points out, a world of difference between being employed by a company that has peripheral relationship to the Saudis, and actually making a conscious decision to court known human rights violators for money. It’s pointless to conflate the action of Rossi with that of Marquez.

Here’s why:

Rossi pledged his opposition to taking money from corporations that harm people.
Marquez - did not.

Can you spot the difference?

It’s like the Sesame Street song, they use to teach small children the basics of discernment and critical thinking.

One of these things is not like the other...:band1:

Rossi has now twice gone back on his pledge.
Marquez - did not.

If you follow me this far, (and I believe you do) please refute the two above statements.

Also - whether the less informed fans won’t ever know is of no consequence.
If someone kills a cop and gets away with it, it’s still murder.

The point is if Rossi is allowed to get away with this, it further encourages other bad actors to do the same or worse. When you are a leader in your field, it is incumbent upon you to see beyond your own
personal needs, and set a good example.

moto vudu said:

Repsol's partnership with Saudi isn't exactly what I'd call minor since without Saudi's help it's not likely Repsol would be able to sustain it's projects or start new ones.

I highly doubt VR46 sponsor deal comes with Abdulaziz Al Saud's picture on the bike and leathers, burqa wearing umbrella girls, and camels to replace paddock scooters. Casual fans will be completely clueless to the partnership just like they have no idea that Repsol is involved with Saudi.

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A rather long bow with Repsol and Marquez, who have sponsored Honda for decades and with whom MM himself likely signed up in advance of the joint venture you mention. He doesn’t own HRC either.

I take your general point though, perhaps the country or countries VR pays tax to could be required to give up ties with the Saudis before he is, and followers of many teams or riders are not in a good position to cast the first stone in this context, certainly not me given I supported Casey Stoner and Ducati despite despising Phillip Morris.

moto vudu said:

Repsol's partnership with Saudi isn't exactly what I'd call minor since without Saudi's help it's not likely Repsol would be able to sustain it's projects or start new ones.

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You just made that up. Repsol has minor partnerships with Saudi Aramco. It isn't reliant on Saudi Arabia to "sustain it's (sic) projects or start new ones".