Valencia Tests.

Well then. I think i agree that Rossi wouldn't have been pushing nearly like he would on a race weekend in these tests, so to some extent his time is probably slower than his overall capability on the bike, but i still think he would have prefered to be a fair bit faster than he was. This puts an end to the myth that Casey's success was due to the bike more than him, and that a Rossi/Stoner bike swap would have put Rossi miles ahead. Rossi cannot ride the bike that Stoner has been riding, and i think that says a lot about Stoners ability, and his method. However none of that is altogether relevant anyore. The next test isn't until February and i'm sure Ducati will not rest until the revise the details of the bike to allow Rossi to get the best of it. Sepang will give us a much better idea of whats going on. It seems Burgess' recent comments about the bike were wrong and he now looks a bit arrogant at his own expense. Fortunately he and his crew are not afraid of hard work.

Jumkie said:

Did anybody see this picture from Valencia. It made me do a double take.

11019:Val Grid Girl.png]

Click to expand...

Is this Really what i think it is?



BTW, Jumkie, how long do you plan to keep that signature about chipin, you do know we both paid. or your trying to stimulate other's to join the chipin campaign?

Talpa said:

, Does anybody really think that VR is going to remain a second behind Nicky and 1.6 seconds down on the leaders?

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well out of the 8 or so riders who have had a go at the ducati since 2007, hayden probably has easily been the most successfull (outside of stoner) and has ridden about where he normally finishes, average 6th.... so i wouldnt be suprised if rossi wouldnt be able to even match hayden ... thats given that the ducati 2011 will be a similar bronco like it has been in 07-2010

gui22a said:

"could" means "fact"?

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"Preziosi asked Rossi not to run too fast. I'm not joking, it was like an order." Quote - Unquote.



Where the .... in that statement do you see the word "could"? There's virtually nothing ambiguous or equivocal about that statement.

J4rn0 said:

Let us not misquote Burgess. He said he would fix the wobble problem you see in some satellite Ducatis in 80 seconds -- he didn't say he would solve all of the Duck's problems in 80 seconds. Or even in 80 hours.

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Actually, it's you who is mis-quoting Burgess. He said that all the Ducati riders bar Stoner were in the wrong position on the bike, and that he could fix it in 80 seconds. And what do we hear now? That Rossi can't get into the position on the bike that he wants. It's pretty clear-cut.

Jumkie said:

However, this is NOT the dynamic that JB/VR will experience as you can bet the engineers will hang on every word uttered. Then they will present Hayden 5 different solutions to try, and then Rossi will have a crack at the best (again, my opinion). But I don't think I just dreamed up this dynamic, as Burgess alluded to this before he moved to Ducati. He said he would have the ear of every engineer. Something that was probably second guessed when Stoner or Hayden uttered such a request.

Click to expand...

I agree with everything except the bit about Hayden doing the donkey work. There is too little time to leave it all for one rider. Hayden is going to have his work cut out for him in testing, but Rossi is the man with the golden feedback. Rossi will be doing more testing than he's done since 2004, and possibly more than then.

woody996 said:

It doesn't impress me because I expected it. He was always going to be quicker on a better handling bike with a healthy wack of power.

Why would I or anyone think that he'd struggle on a better bike? He's fast in a shopping trolley remember.

Click to expand...

And that doesn't impress you? Just because it's not a surprise doesn't mean it's not impressive. That's like saying you're unimpressed with Rossi's championships from 2002 through 2005 (possible exception in 2004, but he was still a favorite) because you expected it.



I think Rossi's results speak very loudly to Stoner's developmental abilities. They aren't very good. He signed for Ducati and bang, was quick and it's been that way ever since. And ever since, there haven't been many advancements with that bike with the exception of the big bang, which was not what Stoner asked for. He rides what he is given extremely fast, regardless of how .... it might be (because the 2010 Ducati appears to be the strongest 800cc Ducati ever created. Don't kid yourselves, the GP07, GP08 and GP09 were rubbish). But that's it, that's the extent of his prowess. Which is why his move to Honda is a match made in heaven. Honda don't like riders pissing and moaning about wanting new bits or making the bike theirs, they want their riders to hop on and go fast. It makes Honda look better (remember the whole "it's the bike, not the rider" thing when Valentino was mopping up on the 211?). Stoner is exactly the rider they want. And whatever they churn out, he's going to go extremely fast with. Multiple world championships await Honda and Stoner in the next five years or so.

Austin said:

Multiple world championships await Honda and Stoner in the next five years or so.

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He has the potencial but he is not mentaly strong enough... imo.

Jumkie said:

We should also consider their native languages. I don't think Stoner speaks Italian very well and I don't think Prezi's childhood language was English. A bit lost in translation perhaps, something that when you speak the same language can have a whole new meaning to nuance.

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I've pondered that before. Between Stoner and all the people at Ducati they had four years to resolve any loss of

communication due to subtlety of language. My gut feeling is that the issue preventing Ducati from making a more user friendly machine, has more to do with their unwillingness to seriously create a Yama-cati precisely because it would devalue their whole

different-from-the-rest design philosophy. Look at the bike that BMW created for WSBK. It is basically a great Jap-Bike

clone and was competitive right out of the box - because they were willing to admit that nothing they'd built before using

the trademark BMW design philosophy would ever be truly competitive in a field of bikes that had be developed and

refined over a period of decades with an eye towards winning races. Ducati's uniqueness is their marque feature, what makes

them stand out from the pack. I speculate that down in the hole where the real core of engineers work to design the Duc

there is stubborn resistance to the idea of altering their design philosophy because egos are too tied up with technology

that the public identifies with; the one that defines the Ducati brand. That technology is their baby and I'm guessing the idea of

giving their scion the boot in favor of one with no epicantic fold (ie: one with slanty eyes) is a hard one to swallow. Half my family is from Naples and I can tell you... ....... Italians are nothing if not stubborn.

Stoner was just riding fast because he wanted to get the test over with and finally eat his whole sack of halloween candy

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Stoner was just riding fast because he wanted to get the test over with and finally eat his whole sack of halloween candy

Click to expand...

notabikerther4useless said:

Actually, it's you who is mis-quoting Burgess. He said that all the Ducati riders bar Stoner were in the wrong position on the bike, and that he could fix it in 80 seconds. And what do we hear now? That Rossi can't get into the position on the bike that he wants. It's pretty clear-cut.

Click to expand...

Speak of misquoting. The famous sentence of the 80 seconds is this one:

"[font="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, sans-serif"] I can watch some of these lesser riders on the Ducatis and you can see that the bikes are, in my opinion, unsuitably set for what they want to try and do with them. I'm not saying anybody's doing a bad job. I see these things wobbling around. When I think, clearly, if we had that issue with Valentino it'd be fixed in 80 seconds, but some riders don't like the hardness of the bike, because they don't get the feel. But then when they're riding around and it's too soft they're not going forward either...."[/font]

[font="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font]Rossi's Ducati wasn't wobbling around, was it? So they did fix that in 80 seconds. Unfortunately there seem to be other issues as well...

[font="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font]

J4rn0 said:

Speak of misquoting.

The famous sentence of the 80 seconds is this one:

"[font="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, sans-serif"] I can watch some of these lesser riders on the Ducatis and you can see that the bikes are, in my opinion, unsuitably set for what they want to try and do with them. I'm not saying anybody's doing a bad job. I see these things wobbling around. When I think, clearly, if we had that issue with Valentino it'd be fixed in 80 seconds, but some riders don't like the hardness of the bike, because they don't get the feel. But then when they're riding around and it's too soft they're not going forward either...."[/font]

[font="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font]Rossi's Ducati wasn't wobbling around, was it? So they did fix that in 80 seconds. Unfortunately there seem to be other issues as well...

[font="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font]

Click to expand...

You're right. At least, partially right. It seems my memory slightly failed me. But you're also partially wrong, too. Here's a snippet from Krop's write-up after day two:



"While the man who had left Ducati to ride for Honda was scorching around on day one, then setting the fastest time on day two, Valentino Rossi, who had taken Casey Stoner's place in Ducati, was wobbling around at the rear."

Jumkie said:

Absolutely bro! Spot on. And Stoner did not forget, and even then he went about being a professional and scored wins for them. Ducati naively became a negotiating chip for Lorenzo and Rossi who got suckered more than once. (This was like the 3rd time Rossi supposedly courted Ducati, and finally signed. But it was more about him hating his Yamaha situation rather than loving the possibility of moving to Ducati.) I can't remember now, but the money they offered Lorenzo, when we all knew Lorenzo was not really considering them, was a slap in Stoner's face. Stoner has been that high school kid who has been bullied by most of the peeps that make up the GP cloud of spectators and insiders because he was deemed unpopular. Whenever he has uttered a word, it’s been ridiculed, relegated to whining, etc. Now who looks like the .....? This whole thing reminds me of what Marco Melandri said after his experience with Ducati. He admitted after seeing Stoner win in 07 that he, like everybody else, though he would easily win too, since as everybody thought it was the bike that won the title. He was humbled by the experience. He is one of a very short list of people who know what Valentino now knows, that Stoner is a phenom! Every ....... hater that has said his bike was the tool that won him the title, or every ....... ignorant moron that has questioned his integrity about his illness, that includes the Marlboro man and Jerry Burgess and any other spectator or legend of the sport that thought he was faking it, or not pushing the Ducati, or crashing just because of brain fade, the last two days pointed to another reality. The "greatest" rider of all time could not ride Stoner's bike with the same efficiency. Recognizing Stoner's talent has been deem hating Rossi. What a sad state of mind for those peeps.

Click to expand...

what are you talking about?

Rossi is riding the ducati for the first time and your comparing it with Stoner who has been there 4 years, or with 5th place of Hayden who has ridden that bike for 2 years now?



who thought you hate Rossi because of your praise for Stoner?

do you mean you have been praising Casey when you were talking daily about unfair advantages that Rossi recieved from dorna, tire companies, ....?

i think those negative comments on Rossi have made people to think that, and not your support for Casey.

rossiofsky said:

what are you talking about?

Rossi is riding the ducati for the first time and your comparing it with Stoner who has been there 4 years, or with 5th place of Hayden who has ridden that bike for 2 years now?



who thought you hate Rossi because of your praise for Stoner?

do you mean you have been praising Casey when you were talking daily about unfair advantages that Rossi recieved from dorna, tire companies, ....?

i think those negative comments on Rossi have made people to think that, and not your support for Casey.

Click to expand...

How 'bout comparing it with Stoner's first time testing the Ducati?

Jumkie said:

Post of the thread!

Click to expand...

and what course has this thread taken now that Stoner is at p1, and Rossi is at p15? any better?

i dont think so, at that situation some of Rossi fans would have been caried away, now it's some of Stoner fans.

and let's not forget that based on the test times, we say/hear in every winter(even once i said it myself), this year will be Stoner's, and later it has turned out very different.



As much as Stoner's times show his good performance, and Rossi's time show a sign of problems, the 2011 championship isn't started and certainly not decided yet.

Keshav said:

How 'bout comparing it with Stoner's first time testing the Ducati?

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Does Rossi go full gas on a bike he doesn't know like stoner does? I don't think he was out there for times but will see what all you have to say after surgery and with some time and another 4 to 5 days on the bike allowing him to try and understand what's going on.

I don't think there's anyone like stoner out there he adapts faster then any other rider. But I think vr is right behind him and takes a very diff approach to it all.

I have seen mention 2-3 times about how Stoners past stint on the Honda somehow made this transition easier than Rossi to Ducati. About the only thing that is the same as now and 06, is the name on the bike.



Satelitte team 06



Factory team 2011

---------------------------------



2nd rate Michelin tires, no overnighters 06



Spec tire 2011

----------------------------------------------

990 V5-06



800 V4-2011

--------------------



Showa Suspension 06



Ohlins 2011

------------------------------------

Bike built for a human- 06



bike built for Asimo- 2011

------------------------------------



Different team, different tires, different suspension, totally different bike.

Somehow i dont think 2006 has any bearing whatsoever on Casey's transition

povol said:

About the only thing that is the same as now and 06, is the name on the bike.

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Stoner's bike didn't have the name on the tank... It was mostly white though.



Just a reminder, in the 07 pre-season Hopper was quickest and didn't win a race

Keshav said:

How 'bout comparing it with Stoner's first time testing the Ducati?

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Can it be that the rider's style, motives, talents have something to do with that?

I rather compare the times of Rossi with his first test on a Yamaha.



http://www.motorsm.com/motorsport/moto/gp/2004_testing_Feb.asp



and this:

http://www.motorsm.com/motorsport/moto/gp/2004_testing.asp



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



at his first test Rossi was 0.6s slower than Biaggi.

While Biaggi and all Honda's and Kawasaki's tested in the first 2 days, and Yamaha's tested in the 3th and 4th days alone.



JAN, 2004, SEPANG, MALAYSIA:



BIAGGI QUICKEST 2m 2.585s (his time of the second day)

Rossi's fastest came also at the second day: Rossi, Yamaha, 2m 3.17s



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





then in the next test, they were riding together at the same day.



Day 1



FEB 11, 2004, SEPANG, MALAYSIA



1 Biaggi , Honda, 2m 2.693s

2 Edwards , Honda, 2m 2.939

3 Rossi , Yamaha

4 Gibernau , Honda,

5 Capirossi , Ducati,

6 Hayden , Honda,

7 Tamada , Honda, 8 Bayliss , Ducati, 9 Roberts , Suzuki, 10 Checa , Yamaha



----



Day 2



FEB 12, 2004



1 Biaggi , Honda 2m 2.70s

2 Edwards , Honda 2m 2.845

3 Hayden , Honda 2m 2.855

4 Gibernau , Honda

5 Rossi , Yamaha

6 Checa , Yamaha



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Day 3



FEB 13, 2004



1 Hayden , Honda, 2m 1.94s quicker than 2003 pole

2 Biaggi , Honda

3 Gibernau , Honda

4 Edwards , Honda

5 Rossi , Yamaha

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If you look at the other test results in that link, you will see that Rossi wasn't the fastest, untill the final test.

So we May see again that he little by little improves himself. His times aren't good now, but no reason for any panic, i will wait and see after a few gp's.