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Valencia Tests.

Exactly.



Read the posts to Kropotkins article on day 2 testing on his site, regarding the unique Ducati L shaped engine and the fact that it is used as a stressed member part of the frame construct. Perhaps the fundamental design of the bike IS , and always has been flawed; limiting tuning of the chassis for front end feel and grip. Only Stoners good results have disguised the fundamental design fault of the bike and made ducati complacent. A total redesign will be necessary for Rossi to get a podium next year. Does Ducati have the money or willpower to do all that for only one more year of 800s? I doubt it. Changes will be made; radical by previous years standards , but still not enough for a good 2011. I suspect that the 2012 Ducati design has already been penned in, but now Ducati may have to swallow their pride; ditch the L shaped engine, ditch the stressed member engine concept and copy the the Yamaha/ Honda design features. It will mean swallowing a lot of pride, but may be essential to be competitive??



http://motomatters.com/news/2010/11/10/motogp_valencia_day_2_notes.html

I agree with what j4rno said early on when rossi to ducati became a done deal, that everything will be up for grabs (with the 2012 bike anyway), including engine configuration and chassis design. I think yamaha made major engine changes at his behest. I also agree with whoever said it is ducati who is under the most pressure.



I think casey came up with a unique way of getting the 800cc ducati through the corners that didn't involve the conventional corner speed approach, which relied heavily on the properties of the unrestricted bridgestone tyre of 2007 , and perhaps involved a synergy with tc that pre-tc era riders did not have, or at least being prepared to push the limits further than most of these riders. I strongly doubt as you and kropotkin do that the current ducati design elements can be used to make a clone of the current yamaha.
 
Exactly.



Read the posts to Kropotkins article on day 2 testing on his site, regarding the unique Ducati L shaped engine and the fact that it is used as a stressed member part of the frame construct. Perhaps the fundamental design of the bike IS , and always has been flawed; limiting tuning of the chassis for front end feel and grip. Only Stoners good results have disguised the fundamental design fault of the bike and made ducati complacent. A total redesign will be necessary for Rossi to get a podium next year. Does Ducati have the money or willpower to do all that for only one more year of 800s? I doubt it. Changes will be made; radical by previous years standards , but still not enough for a good 2011. I suspect that the 2012 Ducati design has already been penned in, but now Ducati may have to swallow their pride; ditch the L shaped engine, ditch the stressed member engine concept and copy the the Yamaha/ Honda design features. It will mean swallowing a lot of pride, but may be essential to be competitive??



http://motomatters.c...ay_2_notes.html



The Ducati Desmosedici 990cc also had an L-shaped engine that was a stressed member etc. Same design. It had no front-end issues, won races and in 2006 was a title contender. It was a big bang engine, btw.



I tend to believe the front-end issues depend on the present generation of tires, to which Ducati has not adapted well (or that were better suited to other bikes, like Yamaha and Honda). The modifications they are going to implement now may address that.



Saying the whole design concept is flawed is a long shot. What should we say of Suzuki, then?



Certainly the Ducati will never be a Hondati or a Yamacati. They will stick to their design ideas, which does not mean they will not be able to win.



In prototype racing it is also good to have different concepts fighting it out. Ducati should be appreciated for not making Japanese bikes.
<
 
The Ducati Desmosedici 990cc also had an L-shaped engine that was a stressed member etc. Same design. It had no front-end issues, won races and in 2006 was a title contender. It was a big bang engine, btw.



I tend to believe the front-end issues depend on the present generation of tires, to which Ducati has not adapted well (or that were better suited to other bikes, like Yamaha and Honda). The modifications they are going to implement now may address that.



Saying the whole design concept is flawed is a long shot. What should we say of Suzuki, then?



Certainly the Ducati will never be a Hondati or a Yamacati. They will stick to their design ideas, which does not mean they will not be able to win.



In prototype racing it is also good to have different concepts fighting it out. Ducati should be appreciated for not making Japanese bikes.
<




Admirable as that may be, it may just mean a bleak future for Ducati because it may not be the best configuration?
 
Saying the whole design concept is flawed is a long shot. What should we say of Suzuki, then?



Certainly the Ducati will never be a Hondati or a Yamacati. They will stick to their design ideas, which does not mean they will not be able to win.



In prototype racing it is also good to have different concepts fighting it out. Ducati should be appreciated for not making Japanese bikes.
<

Sure, I have always loved ducatis, and it was a considerable technical triumph for them to produce a championship winning bike against the engineering might/financial and other resources of the japanese, and as you say the 2006 bike was quite possibly championship capable too. I still have not quite come to terms with the necessity of supporting hrc in 2011; no longer being in the marlboro camp will present less problems for me though
<
.
 
I don't think he is a top 4 rider in the current field (would make him an alien) but I'm happy to be proven wrong. I hope he does well.



Jumkie is talking about status within his team, as he is a promotor of the conspiracy theory that HRC were out to sabotage Nicky's career
 
Let us not sling mud on poor Ducati.
smile.gif




The street Ducatis of the 60s and 70s were some of the best sport bikes you could buy

at the time.



Better brakes and better handling than the Jap bikes (very poor in those areas at the time,

and even extremely dangerous when ridden fast like the notorious Kawa 500 Mach III);

weak points of the Ducks were comfort (nonexistent) the poor electrics and the low

quality of the finish in general. The old 750 and 900 L-twins were good engines, but

you needed well-trained mechanics doing regular maintenance.



In the late 70s and 80s the Ducatis progressed in some areas but meanwhile the

Jap bikes fixed chassis and brakes issues and became better (and cheaper)

street bikes than the Ducatis. This is the period that has generated most of the

opinions that you are echoing.



In the 90s the best Ducatis were, again, better sport bikes than most of the

Japanese competition but were way too expensive, and needed more maintenance

than Japanese bikes.



The situation kept evolving in the last few years. In recent years Ducati have made

a quantum leap in reliability (new high-precision machinery has been installed

at the factory) and now their maintenance intervals are even better than those of the

Japanese bikes. Latest models like the new Multistrada are as reliable

as any BMW or Honda.



Speaking of Ducati race bikes, they have always been extremely good in all the

stock-derived categories. No need to speak of that.



They entered prototype grand prix with the advent of MotoGP and 4-stroke engines.

In two years, they were winning races against all the best Japanese bikes and

in 2006 they were already title contenders.

So the design philosophy wasn't that bad, was it.
tongue.gif




In 2007 they won, big surprise, taking advantage also of new silly rules, of Bridgestone

tires they had helped in developing, and of the talent of Casey Stoner.



In the following years, however, it became more and more evident that Ducati was

Stoner-dependent. It is in these last few years of the 800cc era that Ducati has

grown a reputation as a peculiar and difficult bike; note however that while the

800cc is certainly a difficult beast, the 990 wasn't considered so difficult -- so it's not the

fault of the design philosophy (that has not changed much from the 990), but it is

the 800cc model that was born problematic.



Overall, in GP, Ducati can be considered third behind Yamaha and Honda, but in

front of Suzuki (and late Kawasaki). That are both representatives of the "Japanese brilliance".

So it's not really that bad after all.
biggrin.gif




Just for the sake of objectivity
<



Maybe what you say re: Ducati street bikes was true for those sold in Europe - but the versions arriving here in the States

during the '70s and '80s were crap. They all had awful ergonomics, rock-hard suspension with insufficient adjustability

and .... brakes.



In the '80s other than a few bikes fielded by Fast By Ferracchi - no-one in American racing was getting podium results on Ducatis. As to reliability - that's still the core issue to this day. I know so many former Ducati owners and when asked why they are no longer ride them the answer is always the same, too unreliable - I was going broke just trying to keep it running. To most Jap bike owners they belong to that same breed as the Harleys. Owners who who have an irrational loyalty (fetish) to the brand - put them in trailers every year and cart them down to Daytona for bike week so they can parade around town on their jewel-like status symbol bike - putting around from bar to bar. And afterwards... they put 'em back in the trailer and cart them home. Whereas riders on bikes made by the big-4 actually ride across America covering thousands of miles in all kinds of weather, arriving in Florida and then 10 days later returning on them.
 
<
.... ALL ya'll!....Bunch of sniveling little ..... fuckers... There's only one way to settle this!
<


















































[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hncudrWXpX0&feature=player_embedded[/media]









come get some of xx CURVE xx
<
 
<
.... ALL ya'll!....Bunch of sniveling little ..... fuckers... There's only one way to settle this!
<






















[media]http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded[/media]









come get some of xx CURVE xx
<







^^ winner there



and if your not sure moaning ..... ask Hitler



Hitler finds out they dragged knee before him

Who the .... does he think he is = Valenrtino Rossi

go get some Leathers and learn how to ride
<
<
mothers



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ5ovBq7YR8[/media]
 
Good point, but

All 3 of them have beaten Rossi in points

Gibbers, Capirossi, and Biaggi never did. Thats why i say it will be harder, not impossible, but harder



Of cource, it will become harder and harder, it's the nature, finally they will/should beat him, that will have a bit to do with how long Rossi keeps his high performance, and also how far he is going to continue with racing in motogp.
 
Sup Shupe, haven't seen you post in a while....

I think Nicky's goal in 2011 is to be fighting in the top 5 which I think he's capable of doing if the bike suites him? Lets see the top 5 is getting really crowded now with Lorenzo, Spies, Simmocelli, Pedrosa, Dovisio, and Rossi....ok....yea maybe your right top 8...damn!
<



Yeah it's going to be real hard next year. While I think Nicky can handle Simoncelli, the two Yamaha factory guys, three Honda riders, and Rossi makes six (am I forgetting anybody?). Dovizioso isn't quite an "alien," but he seems to be a step above Nicky, just a little. He actually strikes me as a slightly quicker version of Nicky.
<
 
Maybe what you say re: Ducati street bikes was true for those sold in Europe - but the versions arriving here in the States

during the '70s and '80s were crap. They all had awful ergonomics, rock-hard suspension with insufficient adjustability

and .... brakes.



In the '80s other than a few bikes fielded by Fast By Ferracchi - no-one in American racing was getting podium results on Ducatis. As to reliability - that's still the core issue to this day. I know so many former Ducati owners and when asked why they are no longer ride them the answer is always the same, too unreliable - I was going broke just trying to keep it running. To most Jap bike owners they belong to that same breed as the Harleys. Owners who who have an irrational loyalty (fetish) to the brand - put them in trailers every year and cart them down to Daytona for bike week so they can parade around town on their jewel-like status symbol bike - putting around from bar to bar. And afterwards... they put 'em back in the trailer and cart them home. Whereas riders on bikes made by the big-4 actually ride across America covering thousands of miles in all kinds of weather, arriving in Florida and then 10 days later returning on them.









Ducatis have got that kind of reputation in some markets and I can see that it is hard to die. Why? Not because the units sold in Italy or Europe were any different, but because here it is easier to get the proper maintenance. Ducatis have always needed specifically trained technicians to do the maintenance properly, at the scheduled intervals. Failing that, they can become a maintenance nightmare.

The recent models have maintenance scheduled every 6500-7000 miles, if I'm not wrong in the km/mile conversion. A big leap forward, as good as any Japanese or German bike. And scheduled maintenance aside, their are quality bikes in all details. But now it's an uphill race to change that old perception -- you never get a second chance to give a first good impression...
<
 
Let us not sling mud on poor Ducati.
smile.gif




The street Ducatis of the 60s and 70s were some of the best sport bikes you could buy

at the time.



Better brakes and better handling than the Jap bikes (very poor in those areas at the time,

and even extremely dangerous when ridden fast like the notorious Kawa 500 Mach III);

weak points of the Ducks were comfort (nonexistent) the poor electrics and the low

quality of the finish in general. The old 750 and 900 L-twins were good engines, but

you needed well-trained mechanics doing regular maintenance.



In the late 70s and 80s the Ducatis progressed in some areas but meanwhile the

Jap bikes fixed chassis and brakes issues and became better (and cheaper)

street bikes than the Ducatis. This is the period that has generated most of the

opinions that you are echoing.



In the 90s the best Ducatis were, again, better sport bikes than most of the

Japanese competition but were way too expensive, and needed more maintenance

than Japanese bikes.



The situation kept evolving in the last few years. In recent years Ducati have made

a quantum leap in reliability (new high-precision machinery has been installed

at the factory) and now their maintenance intervals are even better than those of the

Japanese bikes. Latest models like the new Multistrada are as reliable

as any BMW or Honda.




Speaking of Ducati race bikes, they have always been extremely good in all the

stock-derived categories. No need to speak of that.



They entered prototype grand prix with the advent of MotoGP and 4-stroke engines.

In two years, they were winning races against all the best Japanese bikes and

in 2006 they were already title contenders.

So the design philosophy wasn't that bad, was it.
tongue.gif




In 2007 they won, big surprise, taking advantage also of new silly rules, of Bridgestone

tires they had helped in developing, and of the talent of Casey Stoner.



In the following years, however, it became more and more evident that Ducati was

Stoner-dependent. It is in these last few years of the 800cc era that Ducati has

grown a reputation as a peculiar and difficult bike; note however that while the

800cc is certainly a difficult beast, the 990 wasn't considered so difficult -- so it's not the

fault of the design philosophy (that has not changed much from the 990), but it is

the 800cc model that was born problematic.



Overall, in GP, Ducati can be considered third behind Yamaha and Honda, but in

front of Suzuki (and late Kawasaki). That are both representatives of the "Japanese brilliance".

So it's not really that bad after all.
biggrin.gif




Just for the sake of objectivity
<







Maybe the BMW! But Ducati has not, surpassed any Japanese brand in terms of reliablity or maintenance intervals. They have gotten close with the current model Multistrada. Let's see if they can apply that to next years 1198 & 848.

































.
 
Ducatis have got that kind of reputation in some markets and I can see that it is hard to die. Why? Not because the units sold in Italy or Europe were any different, but because here it is easier to get the proper maintenance. Ducatis have always needed specifically trained technicians to do the maintenance properly, at the scheduled intervals. Failing that, they can become a maintenance nightmare.

The recent models have maintenance scheduled every 6500-7000 miles, if I'm not wrong in the km/mile conversion. A big leap forward, as good as any Japanese or German bike. And scheduled maintenance aside, their are quality bikes in all details. But now it's an uphill race to change that old perception -- you never get a second chance to give a first good impression...
<



Hate to tell you this but, Most Hondas & yamaha sport bikes valve adjustemnt range is 18000 to 24000 miles!













.
 
and if your not sure moaning ..... ask Hitler



Hitler finds out they dragged knee before him

Who the .... does he think he is = Valenrtino Rossi

go get some Leathers and learn how to ride
<
<
mothers



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ5ovBq7YR8[/media]



HOLY ....! I have never seen that, I think I just lost a few brain cells laughing my ....... ... completely off. Good ....!
 
Ducatis have got that kind of reputation in some markets and I can see that it is hard to die. Why? Not because the units sold in Italy or Europe were any different, but because here it is easier to get the proper maintenance. Ducatis have always needed specifically trained technicians to do the maintenance properly, at the scheduled intervals. Failing that, they can become a maintenance nightmare.



This is quite true to a very large extent. Ducati almost design in service methids that almost exclude not only non trained personel working on them but also they almost require you to have access to very dedicted service eqipment ( eg. checkout the Mathesis Unit )

But there are ways around it too, eg the timing belts, on one model ( must have been the 749? I think ) required the belts to be tensioned such that they resonated at 110hz ......... the mathesis unit has a built in module for this which works very simillar to a guitar tuner, so just use a mic and a guitar tune or even a guitar tuned to A or there are many oscilloscope or guitar tuner prog.s out there for PC's that dothe jobevery well. .........



get the picture .......



<
<
<




My frst thought was WTF! why would you do that as a belt tensioning method, but really about 2 seconds after the fact I am of the oppinion it is brilliant ....... and works the best of any method I have ever done in the end
<




Still you can actually do most of the required service stuff .......... except remove the little spanner icon from the dash witout a code
<
<


<




But hey even if you do do the services yourself, the parts are ................
<
<
<
<
<
<
<
<
...... unbelieveably not cheap. Matter of fact this is what really turns off most folk I think.



Oh ..... and don't get me started on those idiotic Bael type "in-cap coil" plug leads !! #@$% ....... they are actually quite stupid!, and possibly dangerous .... allways carry a spare but mostly ..... get rid of them!! ....... @%$#ing P'sOS !!
<
<
 
^^ winner there



and if your not sure moaning ..... ask Hitler



Hitler finds out they dragged knee before him

Who the .... does he think he is = Valenrtino Rossi

go get some Leathers and learn how to ride
<
<
mothers



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ5ovBq7YR8[/media]







Oh damm!!!
<
<
I remember posting this version elsewhere years gone by. This one would apply to supershinya, pinky & and a few others.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfgn2lOSx6M&feature=player_embedded





















.
 
This is quite true to a very large extent. Ducati almost design in service methids that almost exclude not only non trained personel working on them but also they almost require you to have access to very dedicted service eqipment ( eg. checkout the Mathesis Unit )

But there are ways around it too, eg the timing belts, on one model ( must have been the 749? I think ) required the belts to be tensioned such that they resonated at 110hz ......... the mathesis unit has a built in module for this which works very simillar to a guitar tuner, so just use a mic and a guitar tune or even a guitar tuned to A or there are many oscilloscope or guitar tuner prog.s out there for PC's that dothe jobevery well. .........



get the picture .......



<
<
<




My frst thought was WTF! why would you do that as a belt tensioning method, but really about 2 seconds after the fact I am of the oppinion it is brilliant ....... and works the best of any method I have ever done in the end
<




Still you can actually do most of the required service stuff .......... except remove the little spanner icon from the dash witout a code
<
<


<




But hey even if you do do the services yourself, the parts are ................
<
<
<
<
<
<
<
<
...... unbelieveably not cheap. Matter of fact this is what really turns off most folk I think.



Oh ..... and don't get me started on those idiotic Bael type "in-cap coil" plug leads !! #@$% ....... they are actually quite stupid!, and possibly dangerous .... allways carry a spare but mostly ..... get rid of them!! ....... @%$#ing P'sOS !!
<
<



Nice to know there are still people doing the maintenance themselves on their bikes, working around the need of special tools etc. etc.





My last Ducati, bought secondhand 6 years old, did not have belts yet btw (which started only in the mid '80s with the Pantah series).



Ah, the beauty of that engine...
rolleyes.gif












No Jap bike of its time (leave alone the clunky BMWs) could keep up with it going from Imola to Mugello.



Afterwards I switched to Japanese bikes myself though
laugh.gif
 
Nice to know there are still people doing the maintenance themselves on their bikes, working around the need of special tools etc. etc.





My last Ducati, bought secondhand 6 years old, did not have belts yet btw (which started only in the mid '80s with the Pantah series).



Ah, the beauty of that engine...
rolleyes.gif












No Jap bike of its time (leave alone the clunky BMWs) could keep up with it going from Imola to Mugello.



Afterwards I switched to Japanese bikes myself though
laugh.gif



That bike is pure ....
 

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