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Valencia Tests.

As regards Ducati's street bikes - they've been getting by primarily on stylishness and exclusivity

and high-price/snob appeal for decades. The Ducatis of the '70s and 80's were really awful bikes

but the same breed of rider who would buy incredibly unreliable old Brit bikes because they had

that whole cult-appeal, regardless of their poor electronics and .... brakes - made Ducati a

viable company. It's only in the last 15 years or so that they've been really producing street

bikes that were truly head to head with the much cheaper Jap bikes. And they're still friggin'

unreliable as hell. It has been I think, a painful and expensive realization for the Ducati engineers

to arrive at, ie: they have to truly match the technological brilliance of the Japanese. Doing this

using Ducati's long-standing design philosophy has been a major fail all in all. Stoner was a

brilliant band-aid for a while - but now they need to get down to some real surgery.

Completely agree. Plus, I have a hard time believing Ducati can, or will throw millions upon millions of dollars to redesign a bike just for 2011. They have what they have to play with next year, with minor upgrades. Next year imo, you can flip a coin between Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa for the title, with Rossi fighting it out with Spies for 4th
 
If i recall corectly one of the benefits of the carbon chassis is the control the designers have over its felxing properties and the repeatability of a particular specification in terms of manufacture. Once JB and Rossi give their feedback (renowned for its accuracy) the Ducati engineers should be able to produce a chassis to the necessary specification.

Sure, but their renowned accurate feedback has presumably previously been at least to an extent for components which can be adjusted as you go rather than contacting the manufacturing facility to bake a different batch of carbon fibre. The carbon fibre route may well allow them to make major changes more quickly, but tinkering with settings would seem likely to be more difficult, and adapting feedback to apply to carbon fibre flexibilty would seem likely to involve a steep learning curve in any case.



I am not saying valentino and jb can't do it though; on the contrary if it can be done they will do it. I also think that whilst the current bike has not looked consistently right for the whole season, last year's bike which was also carbon fibre looked pretty good once casey was physically ok, and he consistently said the problem was him not the gp09.
 
Firstly - it was a tongue and cheek remark. Secondly - because Rossi didn't do any of that stuff on a Ducati - which if you

were paying attention - you would know by now - is the reason why this topic has such long legs.





right tongue and cheek...

anyways i was watching and all i saw was Rossi being almost 2 seconds behind and Nicky being .5 thats it.. rossi made no statements saying he was on the limit or trying to go for lap times. But one thing i know from watching motogp all these years is that he will be there when it all starts... some of you are looking for something to drag the man down and this was it. I'm not saying it's you but some on this thread are. It's testing nothing more. In all honesty do you think Rossi is that slow?



 
right tongue and cheek...

anyways i was watching and all i saw was Rossi being almost 2 seconds behind and Nicky being .5 thats it.. rossi made no statements saying he was on the limit or trying to go for lap times. But one thing i know from watching motogp all these years is that he will be there when it all starts... some of you are looking for something to drag the man down and this was it. I'm not saying it's you but some on this thread are. It's testing nothing more. In all honesty do you think Rossi is that slow?



It has to do with Rossi being less able to ride around the idiosyncrasies of the Ducati

than Stoner. Rossi's real fast... on the right bike. It's not so much that some folks here

want to see Rossi do poorly, as it is that they are shall I say, licking their chops with

delight at the predicament Rossi has put himself in as a result of his tantrums

and his arrogant ultimatum to Yamaha for the firing of Lorenzo. The situation promises to

produce some pretty prime drama in the MGP world while everybody is waiting

to see if Rossi is capable of reenacting his triumphal switch from Honda to Yamaha.

If he doesn't the so called "haters" will have a field day. If he does... everybody wins.
 
Just guessing why Rossi was so slow compared to the others.

It could be the shoulderinjuy ofcourse,but there were still not one fast lap.(which i'm sure he would have liked)

Maybe he and Preziosi had agreed that he would be sure to find out every little thing that is worth changing/developing.

Be a testrider,nothing else.

Maybe they understood as the test continued that the bike he would test in Sepang would have to be almost a completely new frame.(Perhaps built to suit the forks he liked the best at the test.)

So,no need to push on a fast lap with bad confidence for a bike that won't be around anyway.



Before the test Preziosi said they won't change the GP11 that much but afterwards they seem to have agreed to change:stiffness in chassi,weight distribution and so on.To me that sounds like a new bike/chassi(maybe not carbon chassi at the front of the engine),or engine in a different position or something.



Preziosi said he had hoped for Rossi to be faster,maybe that is another way of saying:I had hoped that we didn't need to change too much on the bike.



On the other hand,if Rossi isn't fast the second day in Sepang i think there will be trouble.
 
It has to do with Rossi being less able to ride around the idiosyncrasies of the Ducati

than Stoner. Rossi's real fast... on the right bike. It's not so much that some folks here

want to see Rossi do poorly, as it is that they are shall I say, licking their chops with

delight at the predicament Rossi has put himself in as a result of his tantrums

and his arrogant ultimatum to Yamaha for the firing of Lorenzo. The situation promises to

produce some pretty prime drama in the MGP world while everybody is waiting

to see if Rossi is capable of reenacting his triumphal switch from Honda to Yamaha.

If he doesn't the so called "haters" will have a field day. If he does... everybody wins.



I hear ya... I think it's good that everyone made the switch. I was hoping for Lorenzo to go to ducati especially with all the money that was thrown at him but he just didn't want it for personal reasons I guess. But at least will see what vr can do with the bike.
 
Prepare to bid farewell to the glorious sound of the Desmo - 'cause it's about to be muffled and stifled over the winter. At least the M1's set to be restored to it's former sonic status, and resemble a real racing motorcycle again in the decibel department.



He may be the GOAT but he's a complete queen when it comes to a full on song exhaust system.
 
Prepare to bid farewell to the glorious sound of the Desmo - 'cause it's about to be muffled and stifled over the winter. At least the M1's set to be restored to it's former sonic status, and resemble a real racing motorcycle again in the decibel department.



He may be the GOAT but he's a complete queen when it comes to a full on song exhaust system.

Ah,you're probarbly right.Too bad.I still haven't seen one raceweekend live but i was hoping to do it next year.Wouldn't want to miss the noise.
<
 
I think hes been treated decent so far at Ducati. But the reality u point to is correct. Now imagine 10X worse at Honda post 05. Ive sAid this many times, perhaps seeing Rossi on Duc this reality may sink in. I contend Nicky has never been the #1 rider ever. If he had we'd no doubt see him in top 4 all the time.



I don't think he is a top 4 rider in the current field (would make him an alien) but I'm happy to be proven wrong. I hope he does well.
 
Prepare to bid farewell to the glorious sound of the Desmo - 'cause it's about to be muffled and stifled over the winter. At least the M1's set to be restored to it's former sonic status, and resemble a real racing motorcycle again in the decibel department.



He may be the GOAT but he's a complete queen when it comes to a full on song exhaust system.



If I'm not mistaken... the same is true about Pedrosa.
 
I think that is a fair assesment, if you take any one of those riders motogp careers and compare it to Rossi over the same timescale Rossi has been better and achieved more. However you can also see that his advantage is getting smaller, his most recent world title was his hardest and this season he was 3rd of those 4 riders. That's what makes this such an exciting and fascinating time.



Tom - finally a post that I agree with you on.
 
2. From all reports it is the physics and the characteristics of the Ducati that are the problem. For the past 12mths the front end of the bike has been wrong. A fact highlighted by the large number of front end losses that all Ducati riders have faced. This is also the feedback from Rossi.



I believe this is you talking about Rossi's imaginary feedback........



Ok so we take your word over the guy who owns the whole thing and those that are employed to pass professional comment on the sport. After all your qualifications speak for them self.



You did in fact say that Casey's comments couldn't be believed.



I did not say that Rossi had passed any opinion at all but it has been commented by those inside the garage that a front end redesign is required. But hey what does the mechanic who works on the bike know or the engineer who designed it. I will take your word over theirs from now on.



Please show me where I said that TC had anything to do with Stoner riding on the edge. I said that he is qualified to talk about his bike and MotoGP bikes in general because of this.



'I for one would tend to put more weight on a Stoner comment about his bike then just about anyone on the grid for 2 reasons: 1) he takes the bike to the edge and over it with more regularity than almost anyone and this is where you would expect TC to be in operation more than anywhere else, and 2) he is well known for his non PC responses to questions asked in comparison to the everything is beautiful PC correct responses from most other riders.'






You also said this, is this not referencing TC and Stoner riding on the edge? Short term memory loss?



So at what point do you wish to muddle yourself up even more? Or maybe some More Dr Phil Style Drivel as you can't back pedal around yourself anymore. Where is the top teams data I asked for? Which you base your opinions on?
 
As regards Ducati's street bikes - they've been getting by primarily on stylishness and exclusivity

and high-price/snob appeal for decades. The Ducatis of the '70s and 80's were really awful bikes

but the same breed of rider who would buy incredibly unreliable old Brit bikes because they had

that whole cult-appeal, regardless of their poor electronics and .... brakes - made Ducati a

viable company. It's only in the last 15 years or so that they've been really producing street

bikes that were truly head to head with the much cheaper Jap bikes. And they're still friggin'

unreliable as hell. It has been I think, a painful and expensive realization for the Ducati engineers

to arrive at, ie: they have to truly match the technological brilliance of the Japanese. Doing this

using Ducati's long-standing design philosophy has been a major fail all in all. Stoner was a

brilliant band-aid for a while - but now they need to get down to some real surgery.





Let us not sling mud on poor Ducati.
smile.gif




The street Ducatis of the 60s and 70s were some of the best sport bikes you could buy

at the time.



Better brakes and better handling than the Jap bikes (very poor in those areas at the time,

and even extremely dangerous when ridden fast like the notorious Kawa 500 Mach III);

weak points of the Ducks were comfort (nonexistent) the poor electrics and the low

quality of the finish in general. The old 750 and 900 L-twins were good engines, but

you needed well-trained mechanics doing regular maintenance.



In the late 70s and 80s the Ducatis progressed in some areas but meanwhile the

Jap bikes fixed chassis and brakes issues and became better (and cheaper)

street bikes than the Ducatis. This is the period that has generated most of the

opinions that you are echoing.



In the 90s the best Ducatis were, again, better sport bikes than most of the

Japanese competition but were way too expensive, and needed more maintenance

than Japanese bikes.



The situation kept evolving in the last few years. In recent years Ducati have made

a quantum leap in reliability (new high-precision machinery has been installed

at the factory) and now their maintenance intervals are even better than those of the

Japanese bikes. Latest models like the new Multistrada are as reliable

as any BMW or Honda.



Speaking of Ducati race bikes, they have always been extremely good in all the

stock-derived categories. No need to speak of that.



They entered prototype grand prix with the advent of MotoGP and 4-stroke engines.

In two years, they were winning races against all the best Japanese bikes and

in 2006 they were already title contenders.

So the design philosophy wasn't that bad, was it.
tongue.gif




In 2007 they won, big surprise, taking advantage also of new silly rules, of Bridgestone

tires they had helped in developing, and of the talent of Casey Stoner.



In the following years, however, it became more and more evident that Ducati was

Stoner-dependent. It is in these last few years of the 800cc era that Ducati has

grown a reputation as a peculiar and difficult bike; note however that while the

800cc is certainly a difficult beast, the 990 wasn't considered so difficult -- so it's not the

fault of the design philosophy (that has not changed much from the 990), but it is

the 800cc model that was born problematic.



Overall, in GP, Ducati can be considered third behind Yamaha and Honda, but in

front of Suzuki (and late Kawasaki). That are both representatives of the "Japanese brilliance".

So it's not really that bad after all.
biggrin.gif




Just for the sake of objectivity
<
 
Just guessing why Rossi was so slow compared to the others.

It could be the shoulderinjuy ofcourse,but there were still not one fast lap.(which i'm sure he would have liked)

Maybe he and Preziosi had agreed that he would be sure to find out every little thing that is worth changing/developing.

Be a testrider,nothing else.

Maybe they understood as the test continued that the bike he would test in Sepang would have to be almost a completely new frame.(Perhaps built to suit the forks he liked the best at the test.)

So,no need to push on a fast lap with bad confidence for a bike that won't be around anyway.



Before the test Preziosi said they won't change the GP11 that much but afterwards they seem to have agreed to change:stiffness in chassi,weight distribution and so on.To me that sounds like a new bike/chassi(maybe not carbon chassi at the front of the engine),or engine in a different position or something.



Preziosi said he had hoped for Rossi to be faster,maybe that is another way of saying:I had hoped that we didn't need to change too much on the bike.



On the other hand,if Rossi isn't fast the second day in Sepang i think there will be trouble.



Eeeehhhhh.
rolleyes.gif


If all Ducati needed was just a test rider, they already had Battaini or Guareschi himself.



In that kind of tests you need your top race rider to take the bike to the limit and then give the right feedback and indications on that basis.



It's not a matter of one fast lap time for the sake of pride -- many fast laps are needed. If the lap times are all slow, how are you supposed to choose between things like screamer and big bang? You can only choose them on the basis of faster lap times.

Not surprisingly, they left Valencia without a firm decision on that key point.



MotoGP racing is not a field governed by caution, safety, or slow, gradual and relaxed approaches. Rossi was not expected to go for the pole, sure, but a good number of fast laps were the only way to progress, to produce new ideas and find solutions.



So these Ducati tests were useful only to understand that Rossi and Duck do not gel. Now corrective measures will be taken to make the Ducati more palatable to Rossi, then Rossi will have to do the rest adapting his style quite a bit. Then maybe at Sepang the fast lap times will begin to come. Only then they'll begin really testing and finding ideas.



I know it is quite possible and even probable that Rossi & C will sort it out, but would I bet the house on that right now? No.
 
Eeeehhhhh.
rolleyes.gif


If all Ducati needed was just a test rider, they already had Battaini or Guareschi himself.



In that kind of tests you need your top race rider to take the bike to the limit and then give the right feedback and indications on that basis.



It's not a matter of one fast lap time for the sake of pride -- many fast laps are needed. If the lap times are all slow, how are you supposed to choose between things like screamer and big bang? You can only choose them on the basis of faster lap times.

Not surprisingly, they left Valencia without a firm decision on that key point.



MotoGP racing is not a field governed by caution, safety, or slow, gradual and relaxed approaches. Rossi was not expected to go for the pole, sure, but a good number of fast laps were the only way to progress, to produce new ideas and find solutions.



So these Ducati tests were useful only to understand that Rossi and Duck do not gel. Now corrective measures will be taken to make the Ducati more palatable to Rossi, then Rossi will have to do the rest adapting his style quite a bit. Then maybe at Sepang the fast lap times will begin to come. Only then they'll begin really testing and finding ideas.



I know it is quite possible and even probable that Rossi & C will sort it out, but would I bet the house on that right now? No.

Yes I guess you need many fast laps and not just one,and Rossi didn't do one single fast lap.But hopefully Rossi could tell what he needed even with those slower laptimes.

If not,then he would have just waisted the whole test and getting no information.

Preziosi said he got very precise information from Rossi ,so maybe Rossi went as fast as needed after all to get the information he needed.

So maybe they got the information needed when they compared the exitspeed from the initial turn of the throttle and everything in between that and the straights.As i understand Rossi only had problems going into the corners,perhaps the turning or change of direction too.And that caused the bad laptimes.

The exit of the corner maybe was enough for him to feel the difference between the Big bang and screamer.(Hopefully)
 
How will the distribution of the redesigned bike work?



Are the satellite riders currently just riding last years bikes to tide them over to perhaps the last test when the redesigned bike has been tested again by Rossi and Hayden and refined further?



Then at the last test 12 new bikes turn up all reasonably similar as per previous years so the satellite guys start the year with the new more rider friendly Ducati? Or do they get a new bike at some stage in the season?

All satellite Ducati's in the test was this years bikes i believe,Randy's bike even had the teamcolours,so maybe it was some spare part fairings,i have no idea.

I think they will all get the new bikes in Sepang hopefully.As Ducati seems to start the year with the same bike for everybody,and with likely more changes than usual over the winter,maybe they get it later this year.

Probarbly the same deal with Tech3.

The Honda teams i haven't got a clue.It seems to be different every year to different satellite teams.
 
As usual little respect for hayden. Little respect for him when he won the championship and little respect for him since he's joined ducati.Funny now that rossi is struggling with the bike everyone finally admits that the bike is junk. Well quess how bad it is if your the #2 rider and all the effort is being put into stoners bike leaving you with the leftovers. All year long i've been saying the engineers have done a bad job and now the rossi fans have jumped on the bandwagon.



I have faith in nicky and i think if he gets a decent bike he can run at the front. Hopefully he gets better treatment as a teamate with rossi than he did with stoner.

You're right about it taking Rossi's struggles with the bike to get anyone to admit that the bike is rubbish (and some even still deny it). But I think he gets loads of respect at Ducati. The development direction of the GP10 was very much following what Hayden was asking for, many believe to the detriment of Stoner. He'll still be important in development terms, but certainly not more important than the two most famous developers in grand prix history.



And Carmelo? WTF would he know about how much or how little TC the riders use, let alone how much the level from bike to bike and rider to rider differs, the man is heading up one of the worst governing bodies in world sport.....and commentators? Now there's a source you can bank on!
<
I suggest you obtain some data from all of the top teams to prove your theories based on Casey's quotes
<

So according to you, what is a reliable source? You don't trust the governing body, you don't trust the commentators, you don't trust Stoner, you don't trust Hayden, you don't trust Ducati. So who do you trust? What would make you change your mind on this issue? If Rossi or JB came out and said 'the traction control settings that we initially received were much less than we expected or ran previously,' would that be sufficient enough? Because they aren't going to say that. No one is going to say anything more about Stoner's traction control settings while at Ducati. So if you don't trust the governing body, the commentators, Stoner, Hayden, or Ducati, then you're clearly not going to listen to any reasonable discussion. That being the case, sod off. I'm so tired of you grandstanding and asking everyone here to give you all this data to prove themselves. Where's your data? And Rossi's titles don't count. What do YOU know? Because all you do is slag off everyone else who remotely questions The Almighty and your only response to those questions are either A. Ignore them, or B. Revert to the amount of titles Rossi has won. Everyone here can google how many titles the man's won, it doesn't make them geniuses, it makes them literate. Just like you. Barely.



Q.did casey take his engineers with him to honda?”



A.All except the electronics man.



could this be where some of Ducs problems lie ?

From what I read Rossi was happy with the electronics package. Simpler than that of the Yamaha, but effective.
 
Ducati had a bike that was for years "grip balanced" around a screamer engine. In going BigBang they don't seem to have been able to readjust the grip balance ( how much it wants to push the front before it will let go atthe back ).



But the real thing these tests answered was that Stoner is a more technically skiled rider than Rossi. That was the question on everyones lips since Stoner won in 07. The fact that the yellow army wanted Rossi on the Duc. so bad was just so he could get on the bike and show up Stoner. This has backfired ........ badly.



But its been great to learn:

Stoner is a freakily skilled rider ........ I believe that those in the paddock who said he's the "best/fastest/most technical rider of all time" now must feel pretty chuffed with themselves.



Rossi, needs a good bike, and very likely needs JB to get that. We are yet to have that latter part confirmed.
 
I understand that you are the forum lunatic but that does not excuse you from being completely hypocritical.



To start with Carmelo recently commented on Stoners lack of TC. As mentioned by another poster above several respected commentators have commented on it. An observation of even the most recent races would have highlighted it so the fact that you are still of the ignorant opinion that Stoner uses a heap of traction control is just straight out embarrassing for you.



Lets get back to the hypocrisy of your quoted comment above. It seems that Stoners comments on his bike or MotoGP bikes in general are not to be believed or used as evidence but yet you complain that Rossi has been gagged and therefore you can't use his lack of comments in your defence.



I for one would tend to put more weight on a Stoner comment about his bike then just about anyone on the grid for 2 reasons: 1) he takes the bike to the edge and over it with more regularity than almost anyone and this is where you would expect TC to be in operation more than anywhere else, and 2) he is well known for his non PC responses to questions asked in comparison to the everything is beautiful PC correct responses from most other riders.



GOLD!



A great assessment of young Talpa. Opinion is spouted without evidence and with excess fervour to compensate.
 
I've pondered that before. Between Stoner and all the people at Ducati they had four years to resolve any loss of

communication due to subtlety of language. My gut feeling is that the issue preventing Ducati from making a more user friendly machine, has more to do with their unwillingness to seriously create a Yama-cati precisely because it would devalue their whole

different-from-the-rest design philosophy. Look at the bike that BMW created for WSBK. It is basically a great Jap-Bike

clone and was competitive right out of the box - because they were willing to admit that nothing they'd built before using

the trademark BMW design philosophy would ever be truly competitive in a field of bikes that had be developed and

refined over a period of decades with an eye towards winning races. Ducati's uniqueness is their marque feature, what makes

them stand out from the pack. I speculate that down in the hole where the real core of engineers work to design the Duc

there is stubborn resistance to the idea of altering their design philosophy because egos are too tied up with technology

that the public identifies with; the one that defines the Ducati brand. That technology is their baby and I'm guessing the idea of

giving their scion the boot in favor of one with no epicantic fold (ie: one with slanty eyes) is a hard one to swallow. Half my family is from Naples and I can tell you... ....... Italians are nothing if not stubborn.



Exactly.



Read the posts to Kropotkins article on day 2 testing on his site, regarding the unique Ducati L shaped engine and the fact that it is used as a stressed member part of the frame construct. Perhaps the fundamental design of the bike IS , and always has been flawed; limiting tuning of the chassis for front end feel and grip. Only Stoners good results have disguised the fundamental design fault of the bike and made ducati complacent. A total redesign will be necessary for Rossi to get a podium next year. Does Ducati have the money or willpower to do all that for only one more year of 800s? I doubt it. Changes will be made; radical by previous years standards , but still not enough for a good 2011. I suspect that the 2012 Ducati design has already been penned in, but now Ducati may have to swallow their pride; ditch the L shaped engine, ditch the stressed member engine concept and copy the the Yamaha/ Honda design features. It will mean swallowing a lot of pride, but may be essential to be competitive??



http://motomatters.com/news/2010/11/10/motogp_valencia_day_2_notes.html
 

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