Valencia Tests 8-9 November 2011

mylexicon said:

Fuel economy is an integral part of prototype sprint racing? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were part of Green Peace or ELF or something.

Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with anything. The rules were layed out, and one group of engineers created an engine that not only created winning power, it created winning fuel economy, and winning realiability. That is a feat of engineering . I dont have to like the rules to give credit to the ones who overcame them to build an incredible piece of machinery.

During my hiatus I spent time analysing the practice strategy of Stoner. One of my main conclusions was that Stoner's strategy afforded his pit crew additional time between runs to analysis the feedback and make the changes. It may not seem much but an extra 2min per stint over a practice session equates to about 8-10min extra or between 17 - 22% extra time in a 45min session depending on the number of stints, that his crew has to make adjustments to his bike. When he was at Ducati I think this extra time was critical. With Honda probably not quite as much. The results though, are that Stoner almost always starts the race on a perfect set up for him.

hawkdriver said:

They're all doing it now, it's to prevent engine braking. When you down shift the revs go up and cause the rear wheel to slow down(engine braking),the ecu is tracking wheel speeds and adds in a little throttle to help keep the rear wheel spinning at the same rate as the front wheel while not giving it so much throttle that it wants to accelerate. Honda is no doubt doing the same as Yamaha as they poached a few Yamaha electronics technicians last year when they made the switch to the magneti electronics.

This same technology has found it's way onto the 1199 Ducati.

Click to expand...

It is to 'control' engine braking, prevent is not really a good choice of word. Different riders will have their own preferences depending on their cornering technique. There are mechanical ways of doing this, like slipper clutches at a basic level and the use of air bleed pipes and vacuums like Honda used in the early V5 and will soon be using on the moto3 engine. Apparently this season Honda have been saving fuel by using a more mechanical/more crude system than Yamaha. That is why Yamahas are so silky smooth into the turns relative to the Honda, and also is related to the trouble Honda riders had getting bump starts when they crashed at Jerez

Jumkie said:

Take a look again buddy, all of them listed above in my post are on an 800. Apple to Apples.

Click to expand...

My mistake - thought I caught my error and deleted it before anyone could see it.

Tom said:

In our Valencia coverage Toby Moody said that Casey was only on engine number 5 at the final round!

Click to expand...

Dang!

Mental Anarchist said:

During my hiatus I spent time analysing the practice strategy of Stoner. One of my main conclusions was that Stoner's strategy afforded his pit crew additional time between runs to analysis the feedback and make the changes. It may not seem much but an extra 2min per stint over a practice session equates to about 8-10min extra or between 17 - 22% extra time in a 45min session depending on the number of stints, that his crew has to make adjustments to his bike. When he was at Ducati I think this extra time was critical. With Honda probably not quite as much. The results though, are that Stoner almost always starts the race on a perfect set up for him.

Click to expand...

I don't think there was a perfect set-up for the 2010 ducati which is why he did so many short runs searching for a set-up on that bike, for which he was much criticised at the time, and even called lazy by some. Some attributed his crashes in 2010 to him not doing long stints/race simulations in practice, but not doing this on the honda does not seem to have hampered him this year.

mylexicon said:

Fuel economy is an integral part of prototype sprint racing? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were part of Green Peace or ELF or something.

Click to expand...

If they want to save the world, rather than going for fuel efficiency, I would like to see them developing prototypes for low octane fuel. Apparently outboard two strokes can run as low as 70 octane. Motogp 1000cc has more than enough power with whatever fuel they are currently using. Low octane would make finding power relevent again, lower revs due to pinging and knocking, and ultimately result in engines suitable for countries with limited fuel resources.

My time stuck working in a oil refinery opened my eyes to fuel production. Its a complicated process to get from crude oil to 92 octane pump fuel. Required 3 stages of refining and chemical processing. To get to 70 octane was simple distillation and would make fuel cheap.

povol said:

Final Test Times





1. Dani Pedrosa ESP Repsol Honda 1m 31.807s (45 laps)

2. Casey Stoner AUS Repsol Honda 1m 31.968s (33)

3. Ben Spies USA Yamaha Factory 1m 32.338s (75)

4. Cal Crutchlow GBR Monster Yamaha Tech 3 1m 32.550s (67)

5. Andrea Dovizioso ITA Monster Yamaha Tech 3 1m 33.256s (69)

6. Valentino Rossi ITA Ducati Marlboro 1m 33.332s (62)

7. Karel Abraham CZE Cardion AB Motoracing 1m 33.433s (72)

8. Hector Barbera ESP Pramac Racing 1m 33.648s (41)

9. Alvaro Bautista ESP San Carlo Honda Gresini (800cc) 1m 33.814s (55)

10. Stefan Bradl GER LCR Honda (800cc) 1m 34.142s (61)

11. Kousuke Akiyoshi JPN Repsol Honda 1m 34.546s (32)

12. Franco Battaini ITA Ducati Marlboro 1m 34.840s (74)

13. Carmelo Morales ESP Team Laglisse Suter-BMW (CRT) 1m 35.911s (67)

14. Ivan Silva ESP BQR Inmotec (CRT) 1m 36.695s (52)

15. Yonny Hernandez COL BQR FTR Kawasaki (CRT) 1m 37.279s (30)

16. Federico Sandi ITA Grillini Team Gapam (CRT) 1m 38.680s (26)

With Spies being within a 1/2 second, its assumable that Lorenzo would be right in the mix with the Honda's at the top of the sheet. Hopefully now, everyone can be a little more objective instead of moaning about Honda being on another planet, next year is going to be boring, Honda is evil etc etc . If Honda is dominant next year, it will be for the same reason they were dominant this year, the rider. I see 2012 coming down to the 2 best riders in the sport CS and JL, and if you believe what Spies says, it will not be decided for lack of power.

Click to expand...

Repsol doing some extra testing. I thought these tests where exclusively for riders contesting the championship?

barbedwirebiker said:

Repsol doing some extra testing. I thought these tests where exclusively for riders contesting the championship?

Click to expand...

Look at the other factory Ducati rider for the day

birdman said:

If they want to save the world, rather than going for fuel efficiency, I would like to see them developing prototypes for low octane fuel. Apparently outboard two strokes can run as low as 70 octane. Motogp 1000cc has more than enough power with whatever fuel they are currently using. Low octane would make finding power relevent again, lower revs due to pinging and knocking, and ultimately result in engines suitable for countries with limited fuel resources.

My time stuck working in a oil refinery opened my eyes to fuel production. Its a complicated process to get from crude oil to 92 octane pump fuel. Required 3 stages of refining and chemical processing. To get to 70 octane was simple distillation and would make fuel cheap.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree. I would prefer an octane rating more suitable to the developed world, but lower octane fuel would make more sense from a production standpoint.



I'm not certain, but I think the fuel rules are part of the barriers to entry. FIM competition is 96 AKI (IIRC). High compression makes higher heat, microscopic valve clearance, etc etc. The guys with deep pockets have an advantage. They'd still have an advantage at 87AKI, but I'm not sure they are willing to test it. It's like a rev limit or a bore limit, Honda will still kick ..., but they don't want to do anyone a favor even if it improves the sport.

Tom said:

It is to 'control' engine braking, prevent is not really a good choice of word. Different riders will have their own preferences depending on their cornering technique. There are mechanical ways of doing this, like slipper clutches at a basic level and the use of air bleed pipes and vacuums like Honda used in the early V5 and will soon be using on the moto3 engine. Apparently this season Honda have been saving fuel by using a more mechanical/more crude system than Yamaha. That is why Yamahas are so silky smooth into the turns relative to the Honda, and also is related to the trouble Honda riders had getting bump starts when they crashed at Jerez

Click to expand...

Yeah, you're right control is much better. I think Honda might have reverted back to the electronics or switched to an electronically controlled clutch like the one Ducati were testing. Keeping the revs high is important for the Honda transmission in keeping the next gear engaged.

Tom said:

It is to 'control' engine braking, prevent is not really a good choice of word. Different riders will have their own preferences depending on their cornering technique. There are mechanical ways of doing this, like slipper clutches at a basic level and the use of air bleed pipes and vacuums like Honda used in the early V5 and will soon be using on the moto3 engine. Apparently this season Honda have been saving fuel by using a more mechanical/more crude system than Yamaha. That is why Yamahas are so silky smooth into the turns relative to the Honda, and also is related to the trouble Honda riders had getting bump starts when they crashed at Jerez

Click to expand...

Agreed. The new transmission/clutch is designed to reduce shift time, but it is also designed to reduce fuel-usage during corner entry. The mechanical systems are said to be quite harsh (complaints started last season), but it saves so much fuel that Honda can out horsepower and out accelerate the rest of the field quite handily. Since Honda also have the fastest rider, the races become processional at times.

On the subject of number of laps, Stoner has mentioned a number of times that he doesn't understand why other riders need to be out for so many laps in each stint (see link below for a recent example). The only time he stays out for a longer stint seems to be when he's doing a race simulation to see how the bike changes as the tyres wear and the tank empties. Remember though, that this season Stoner had no setup info for any track (except for Valencia and Sepang from pre-season testing). That possibly meant a lot more going in an out of the pits.



Lorenzo, on the other hand, loves his race simulations and often runs more than one over the course of a weekend. Differences like that over the course of 3 FPs, QP and warmup add up to a lot of kms, and could be a factor in engine life.



For those that haven't seen it, this online issue has some great interviews and photos, well worth a read: http://ontrackoffroad.com/magazine/otor-november-8th-17/

corinthian said:

On the subject of number of laps, Stoner has mentioned a number of times that he doesn't understand why other riders need to be out for so many laps in each stint (see link below for a recent example). The only time he stays out for a longer stint seems to be when he's doing a race simulation to see how the bike changes as the tyres wear and the tank empties. Remember though, that this season Stoner had no setup info for any track (except for Valencia and Sepang from pre-season testing). That possibly meant a lot more going in an out of the pits.



Lorenzo, on the other hand, loves his race simulations and often runs more than one over the course of a weekend. Differences like that over the course of 3 FPs, QP and warmup add up to a lot of kms, and could be a factor in engine life.



For those that haven't seen it, this online issue has some great interviews and photos, well worth a read: http://ontrackoffroa...ovember-8th-17/

Click to expand...

Dude! Thanks for the link, that's a bad ... mag. Roadracing & SX/MX is exactly my to passions, with the hot Monster girl pics to boot. Is that something I can subscribe too? I mean, like an actual paper magazine not just digital?



Btw, to answer Stoner's question, which is rather obvious, its because everybody processes information differently. I don't think he's got the market cornered on best use of practice time, its just he has his own method and other have theirs.

povol said:

A feat of engineering, what prototype racing is supposed to be.

Click to expand...

I thought it was a competition to make the best racing bike, not a competition between who could make the most complicated (at a cost of millions) mousetrap. If the racing itself does not benefit from all the money thrown at the project - it's just billions of yen spent in a contest to see can make the most sophisticated gizmo. Giant egos of engineers with giant companies run by more execs with giant egos, who have lost site of what who's competing and at what.

povol said:

A feat of engineering, what prototype racing is supposed to be.

Click to expand...

Not quite.





I disagree. It’s a point that I think you haven't quite grasped, that is, the rules drive the creation. We have a situation where the fuel limits dictate the need to create a very complicated electronics system. If they lowered that to 18 liters, then another set of solutions would have to be created, would you still be saying, that's “prototype” racing at its best? You think 800s on 21 liters is the perfect parameter for your belief that this is prototype innovation at its highest level? What if they gave unlimited fuel, might we see new innovations in suspension? The solutions you see today are driven by the need to stay within the rules, not quite the spirit of innovation that you think is MotoGP; that is, its counter to the spirit of "prototype" technology that employs originality in engineering and exploration of different solutions. This in turn effects the solutions of other systems on the bike, do you see this connection?



Ducati, for example, had perhaps the most innovative bike on the grid, but they were penalized by the rules, you know, that thing that you insist is in the spirit of "prototype" racing. The man made rules created a situation where they couldn't develop innovative solutions to solve their problems because the rules had an engine rule. That engine rule has forced all the factories to stay with conventional solutions to build a race bike in MotoGP, hardly the spirit of prototype innovation. Do you understand that the rules have created something like a spec solution for chassis development? Read that previous sentence and let it sink in a bit. It’s no different now with the CRTs that you are so adamantly opposed to. It’s just another formula, just like the one that existed with 800s. The rules are made and the teams must create within those parameters, and this actually sometimes hinders innovation and is counter to the spirit of "prototype" racing. Not to mention we have a spec tire in which bikes now have to be designed around its characteristic. But I suppose you will ignore all this, and sing the praises of "prototype" racing. Its no different from the 990 formula to the 800 formula, that is to say, the only thing that changed were the rules, as it is now with the CRTs.

Jumkie said:

Dude! Thanks for the link, that's a bad ... mag. Roadracing & SX/MX is exactly my to passions, with the hot Monster girl pics to boot. Is that something I can subscribe too? I mean, like an actual paper magazine not just digital?



Btw, to answer Stoner's question, which is rather obvious, its because everybody processes information differently. I don't think he's got the market cornered on best use of practice time, its just he has his own method and other have theirs.

Click to expand...

And a fair amount of the articles are penned by none other than our own Kropo.

Keshav said:

I thought it was a competition to make the best racing bike, not a competition between who could make the most complicated (at a cost of millions) mousetrap. If the racing itself does not benefit from all the money thrown at the project - it's just billions of yen spent in a contest to see can make the most sophisticated gizmo. Giant egos of engineers with giant companies run by more execs with giant egos, who have lost site of what who's competing and at what.

Click to expand...

It is, and they did!

povol said:

It is, and they did!

Click to expand...

In what way does the fuel limitation make anything better for purposes of racing? It's wholly irrelevant and counter to the spirit of racing. Making a hideously expense provoking fuel rule no more improves the bike or the racing than painting your toothbrush gold makes your teeth any healthier.

Keshav said:

In what way does the fuel limitation make anything better for purposes of racing? It's wholly irrelevant and counter to the spirit of racing. Making a hideously expense provoking fuel rule no more improves the bike or the racing than painting your toothbrush gold makes your teeth any healthier.

Click to expand...

I asked him the same thing without the confusing analogy. He's still pondering a way to make his beliefs and the reality of "prototype" racing coexist in a logical post. It can't be done. Hence our wait. I'll save my esteemed colleague from Tennessee the trouble and just post for him...



[Stoner's] Honda is the greatest prototype bike ever, because Stoner rode it to a title win.



Btw Kesh, not just fuel limits, but engine rule (defacto rev limit), testing limits, spec tire, emissions, displacement limit, etc. etc. It reminds me of these reality shows that test the contestant on being a chef, fashion designer, carpenter, etc. The first thing they do is give them two twigs and say, build us a cake, dress, deck, (respectively), and you have three hours to do it. Uhm, WTF does that have to do with their trade? Absolutely nothing.