The 'superbike' discussion is one with many avenues of discussion and not for here or now, but it goes without saying that production bike racers reaching the very top in GP racing seem to be the anomalies. Having said that Hayden (champ), Hopper (4th overall), Vermuellen (race win), Edwards (4th overall), Spies (race win) and Bayliss (race win) have all been notable GP riders in the modern era from production bike backgrounds.
The 'superbike' discussion is one with many avenues of discussion and not for here or now, but it goes without saying that production bike racers reaching the very top in GP racing seem to be the anomalies. Having said that Hayden (champ), Hopper (4th overall), Vermuellen (race win), Edwards (4th overall), Spies (race win) and Bayliss (race win) have all been notable GP riders in the modern era from production bike backgrounds.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
CRT is not for the purpose of artificially creating an even field - but because prototype bikes have become prohibitively expensive and the grid is shrinking. By your way of thinking it wouldn't matter if the field was reduced to one Honda and one Yamaha as long as they were prototype. MotoGP needs to grow. If it takes a few temporary steps "backwards" in order to evolve - then that's okay by me. CRT strikes me as being very close to the spirit of the early days of GP racing where there were a handful of factory bikes and shitload of privateers. Works for me.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
And therein lies the problem. I watch this sport to see how far engineer and rider can go. I want to see records broken, or at least have a realistic chance.of seeing it. I honestly do not care if someone gets it right and dominates, i actually prefer it. When someone dominates you in sports, it makes you better, or it makes you a quitter. When i go to a track i dont want to see Casey Stoner, Valentino Rossi, Jorge Lorenzo, and Dani Pedrosa riding around 2-3 seconds a lap behind their capabilities. I know exactly where the riders are coming from and i dont blame them. These guys live to push the limit, it what makes them who they are. Putting them on 2-3 second a lap slower bikes is like taking a tiger out of the jungle and plopping him in a zoo, sooner or later, they lose that spirit that made them what they were. But no worries, once you raise a generation of new tigers who have never been allowed to be what they can be, it will become the norm. Sounds kind of like life in general anymore.
What a load of rubbish. So the rules change a bit and the bikes get slower, that doesn't mean the engineering solutions are any less impressive. Some of the best egineering solutions in car racing are found in Formula student competion, yet they don't brake any records because the rules don't allow that level of performance.
You are trying to justify how you feel about CRT by claiming to be a purist sticking to a load of principles, but none of them are stand if you look at it objectively. I have no problem that you don't like the idea of CRT, you don't think it will excite you or you just don't have a good feeling about it, but objectively speaking you don't really have a leg to stand on so quit trying to justify it that way and just admit you are sulking
You are trying to justify how you feel about CRT by claiming to be a purist sticking to a load of principles, but none of them are stand if you look at it objectively. I have no problem that you don't like the idea of CRT, you don't think it will excite you or you just don't have a good feeling about it, but objectively speaking you don't really have a leg to stand on so quit trying to justify it that way and just admit you are sulking
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
GP is not bike racing for beginners, intermediate, or even your average pro. It is supposed to be the absolute best the planet has to offer in all phases, and if we are debating how long it will take for GP to surpass WSBK in performance, it ceases to be GP. I can slap a prancing stallion insignia on my Camry, but that doesnt make it a Ferrari. The writing is on the wall, WSBK will capitulate and become SS with SBK badging, while GP becomes SBK with GP badging.
Am i sulking, hell yes, one of my joys in life will cease to excite me. GP has got much bigger problems than fans like me though. They have got to figure out how to either retain, or find new fans once Rossi retires. There are literally millions of so called GP fans who tuned out entirely when Rossi was injured, and only came back when he returned. TV ratings in Italy dropped almost 50% while Rossi sat injured, and jumped back when he returned. Those are not fans of Moto GP. Dorna is looking down the barrel the prospect of losing the old die hard fan, and the relatively new band wagon fan. Could get interesting.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Hahahaha. You sound so emotional. Don't take it out on others when you stick your foot in mouth buddy. You are the one who was talking doom and gloom about the new formula, so I offered a wager to shut you up. You never qualified it, you simply said you won't be interested to see the new formula because its not longer "prototype" (that is your definition of 'prototype'). Your problem was with the machine, now you want to extend it to the riders. My point, which you missed, is that riders on the same "prototype" machine were drastically off the pace. You couldn't make the connection and naively pointed to the CRT lap times and made the conclusion that its .... without profound thought. But I'll even include Austin's suggestion (which is still irrelevant to your argument), notwithstanding, I will wager a CRT bike will surpass a MotoGP regular rider on a "prototype 800".
I propose the wage because it increased the profile of your lame stance on the CRTs buddy. You can talk all you want, but how much are you willing to stand behind your misplaced apprehension of the new formula? You say you would walk away, ore as you put it, never go watch another GP, ok, well then, lets make a bet that you will be wrong about the eventual performance of the CRT vs 800s in terms of lap times. Either way, we both know you will not stand by your empty threat of leaving the sport, even though you will still be watching, which begs the question, what kind of lame threat is that? You will watch because you'll want to know what is happening in the sport. Saying you won't physically step foot at a GP but watch on TV will still give the series value by your viewership. So this idea that you will be protesting is weak. hahahaha. Come on Pov, lets make a bet buddy. If its the money you have a problem with, I'll make the wager a bottle of premium tequila.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Pockets on shirts are so overrated.
I like the concept of CRT, but I don't like the production aspect. Ideally, I would like to see Honda, Yamaha, and Ducati leasing engines for such entries, but it sounds like those costs are still too high. I'll take the production engine route, it's not ideal, but I'll take it. I think the series needs an emphasis on chassis builders.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Hahahaha. You sound so emotional. Don't take it out on others when you stick your foot in mouth buddy. You are the one who was talking doom and gloom about the new formula, so I offered a wager to shut you up. You never qualified it, you simply said you won't be interested to see the new formula because its not longer "prototype" (that is your definition of 'prototype'). Your problem was with the machine, now you want to extend it to the riders. My point, which you missed, is that riders on the same "prototype" machine were drastically off the pace. You couldn't make the connection and naively pointed to the CRT lap times and made the conclusion that its .... without profound thought. But I'll even include Austin's suggestion (which is still irrelevant to your argument), notwithstanding, I will wager a CRT bike will surpass a MotoGP regular rider on a "prototype 800".
I propose the wage because it increased the profile of your lame stance on the CRTs buddy. You can talk all you want, but how much are you willing to stand behind your misplaced apprehension of the new formula? You say you would walk away, ore as you put it, never go watch another GP, ok, well then, lets make a bet that you will be wrong about the eventual performance of the CRT vs 800s in terms of lap times. Either way, we both know you will not stand by your empty threat of leaving the sport, even though you will still be watching, which begs the question, what kind of lame threat is that? You will watch because you'll want to know what is happening in the sport. Saying you won't physically step foot at a GP but watch on TV will still give the series value by your viewership. So this idea that you will be protesting is weak. hahahaha. Come on Pov, lets make a bet buddy. If its the money you have a problem with, I'll make the wager a bottle of premium tequila.
And i offered you a bet that required you to seek professional advice from Krop, which resulted in you having to admit i was right, and turning down said bet. Like i said, its easy to tell when your losing, you tell everyone who will listen you are winning. Why in the hell would i care if a CRT bike matched times with a 15th place satellite bike, unless i wanted a hole grid of 15th place bikes. You love playing devils advocate, singing the praises of CRT on one thread, while musing on another your hope Bridgestone will produce a tire that will allow GP to at least match WSBK, so there can at least be a perception of GP being the pinnacle of bike racing. Its really quite funny watching you struggle with yourself.
Same. The production aspect of CRT is unappealing. The MSMA is obviously the problem in MotoGP. They have the funds, the personnel, the revenue generating brands, and the technical know-how to make GP a great show; instead, they embrace failure. However, I don't think Dorna are far behind.
Though I support Dorna in this row, I generally see them as impotent and unimaginative. They once created the 990cc formula, and they got the manufacturers to participate. Within 2 years, the formula had already fallen apart. After the judicially-induced sale of MotoGP to Bridgepoint, Dorna spend 90% of their time inventing new ways to raise profit margins. Dorna are capable of contracting with a company like Ilmor to build a "Cosworth DFV" for MotoGP. They refuse. Instead they daydream about maximizing profits and satisfying their imperialist leanings by making their formulas suitable for national series (diluting the GP brand at the national level should be on the back burner now that Bridgepoint own the commercial rights to SBK). The CRT concept could be more professional and more compelling if they commissioned prototype engines and made them available for a set price.
Dorna also need to learn how to go to war. Their objective should be to collapse market share for Honda and Yamaha by firing up the Dorna marketing machine. Ezpeleta should use his media coverage to devalue their brands, and he should be open about bringing war to their doorstep. Shareholders are cowards. If the numbers continue dipping or they fail to recover, they will replace the current MSMA officials with people who are capable of working with Dorna. Breakaway is not a legitimate concern. They can't even keep MotoGP running let alone start a new international series from scratch. Dorna need to turn up the heat, and show the manufacturers the power of marketing in the 21st century. Motorcycle manufacturers have never understood marketing. Just look at their ad campaigns. Look at the Japanese home market. The MSMA can't even sell bikes in their own country. Baby-booming Americans, who have a penchant for overpriced iron, are the only demographic keeping high displacement segment afloat. Dorna need to shape the industry that supports their series.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
However, Austin, i think people are making "production" into a toxic word as much as people are misusing the word "prototype". Not to mention, i dont think CRTs are required to take a production based engine. And i'll add, an engine pistons, valves, case, etc. What makes u think the engineering that took place back at a factory is any less an engineering solution than one produced by a factory while racing. Its hardly unique.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Time stamps dont lie. I offerred my wager well before Kropo enterred into this equation. U counter offerred a bet that i had already said was irrelavent, as year to year records havent gone automatically down from track to track. Otherwise, why have u been watching the sport when they went from 990 to 800. Ur clutching at straws Pov, and dont expect my pressure to decrease, as with every post, u keep showing ur desperation.
Again, u missed Kropos point, which is that tires have a great measure in dictating lap time.
And anyway, ur problem is with the new rules, which had they not changed, then by ur logic, u would hav been content with only satellite "prototypes" racing in GP given that factories can leave, as has Suzuki. U painted urself into a corner, and i've been badgering u because i like to see u weasel and sqwirm. I take joy in it.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Uh, maybe because the lap record for EVERY track on this years schedule has been set in the 800 era.
Pressure from a rabid chihuahua, oh my, im about to crack, someone please help me.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Uh, maybe because the lap record for EVERY track on this years schedule has been set in the 800 era.
Pressure from a rabid chihuahua, oh my, im about to crack, someone please help me.
Read what u highlighted again.
Were all 990 lap records broke year 1 of 800s?
Haha, see what u just did?
Pov - If we are to follow your rules on what makes this championchip a world beater tell me what the difference is -
3 riders fighting for the win covered by zilcho doing a vary fast but not record breaking 1:39 lap
OR
3 riders not fighting circulating 5 sec apart but lapping at record pace 1:38
You seem to have missed the entire point of the modern age - Money talks. Right now GP has no money & is sinking nearly as fast as the ...... titanic. I know which of the 2 formula's above i would pay to see.
The 500's we a lot slower at every track than the current breed, even though in my opionion we have probably some of the richest grids of all time in terms of talent, both era's riders were wrestling the beasts around so it has nothing at all to do with ultimate lap pace & technology - ITS ABOUT RACING!
3 riders fighting for the win covered by zilcho doing a vary fast but not record breaking 1:39 lap
OR
3 riders not fighting circulating 5 sec apart but lapping at record pace 1:38
You seem to have missed the entire point of the modern age - Money talks. Right now GP has no money & is sinking nearly as fast as the ...... titanic. I know which of the 2 formula's above i would pay to see.
The 500's we a lot slower at every track than the current breed, even though in my opionion we have probably some of the richest grids of all time in terms of talent, both era's riders were wrestling the beasts around so it has nothing at all to do with ultimate lap pace & technology - ITS ABOUT RACING!
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
dont forget calendars, not to mention, having to ask for charity from Lorenzo to go to Motegi.
However, Austin, i think people are making "production" into a toxic word as much as people are misusing the word "prototype". Not to mention, i dont think CRTs are required to take a production based engine. And i'll add, an engine pistons, valves, case, etc. What makes u think the engineering that took place back at a factory is any less an engineering solution than one produced by a factory while racing. Its hardly unique.
I understand what you're saying. From what I gather and have seen, there will be very little in common between a CRT and a WSBK, and I think that concept does get lost when you're using broad brushes such as "prototype" and "production" to describe the components of this new formula.
The chassis will continue to be as forward thinking as we see today, no step backwards there. The powerplants will start life as production, but it seems to me they will be so heavily modified that we could potentially be seeing figures considerably higher than WSBK spec. I'm not entirely dissatisfied with this idea, just that gone are the days of V5s and other seemingly crazy configurations. If these bikes will be limited to what manufacturers put out, and manufacturers are hesitant of releasing V4s, when we seemed destined for a field full of I4s. Finally, the electronics will be limited, but this is what the riders and fans alike have been asking for, for the past four years. I don't see how this is bad.
In hindsight, this seems to be little more than a rant for rant's sake on my part, so I apologize.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Austin, about the engine configurations, as u remember we talked about it, not everthing was on the table then, as they wer restricted by some rules formula for engine configurstions. Its NO different now. The rules prescribe the lump. Afterall, we dont see rotary engines, right?
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Perhaps buddy. After all, at one point they said u hav 'no choice' but to use a four-stroke engine. With that "greater choice" came a defacto electronics arms race that was rather singularly the make or break component thanks to that "little choice" in the liters u could put in the tank. Now, we have "increased choice" in the fuel, which i hope means "greater choice" in investment strategy and innovation for component hardware solutions.
Im starting to really get excited about what the future will bring.
