Valencia Test

Hey Mick, I "like" a lot of posts, I don't do it to build up MA's self validation. People on here are very funny, witty, clever, perceptive and so on and so forth, hell, I've "liked" a lot of your posts as well.



I do it because I'm sitting here reading this, like all of us, we are genuinely enthralled with motorcycle racing. If you get a burst of laughter from me (easy really) or beat me in an argument (easy really) you get liked.



Liking a post is because it makes you laugh, or think and we all do too much or too little of that in turns. It isn't homoerotic or a sycophantic exercise. I don't count my likes but I know I'd be gutted if it was zero. And if I am a girly I'm about to announce a world wide shortage on razors, nair and veet, I am one ugly ugly girl and my bikini line is a disgrace.







On a totally different note its raining here and one of the local burnout teenagers has just binned his car on my corner and is trying to drive it away with wheels all cross eyed and ..... He ...... off with another mate in a WRX. I am going to print out a huge "like" symbol and put on his windscreen

Frizzle said:

Marquez is very talented. Of this there is no doubt. But one days testing is tough to analyze in detail.

It's too hard to measure one way or the other. I mean Marquez finished just 1 second behind Pedrosa in his first test. Great effort.

But does Pirro finishing just 2 tenths further back on a satellite Ducati carry more weight than that? I think it does.

I think Marquez is too talented not to be a future motogp champion. But we wont know that for sure based on one test in mixed conditions.

He will be given time to learn & he will need it. Not only hasn't he raced a motogp bike before, but he is up against opposition riders substantially better than any he has ever faced before.

Will be fun to watch his progress.

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We already knew who MM is based on what he has done so far in the 'lower' classes. The Valencia test in itself is not especially revelatory about his value. The other rookie to watch is definitely Iannone, although he will have to sweat more then MM to get a factory MotoGP saddle.

BJ.C said:

Whatever.



As I said, calling it 'taking points' was a clumsy way to put it. But there you go.



Enjoy arguing with yourself about it, it was my opinion, I wasn't asking for a critique.

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Fair enough, and apologies, I read your second post quickly and obviously misinterpreted your meaning. Sure an extra 5 points from both assen and laguna seca would have been rather handy for dani going into PI and would perhaps have made him less desperate ( EDIT although stoner finishing third and dani second at laguna seca would have given dani only 4 extra points, and would also have given jorge 5 extra points, which is what was playing at the edge of my mind). As it transpired second at PI would have won dani the championship, although jorge would likely have ridden very differently at valencia, despite which anything could still have happened in what would still have been a wet race.



As we all know team orders are the way to go for maximum efficiency in terms of winning championships, and were pretty much the norm in many forms of motorsport in my youth. It is perhaps not necessarily to australia's credit that team orders in F1 were abolished, after an australian grand prix where they were in place, because of official local concern that it had interfered with betting on the race.



I tend to give the dastardly big H some credit for team orders apparently not being in place at assen and sachsenring this year. We will never know what might have happened had dani stayed in the race at PI; I have to say I rather doubt stoner would have given way.

No worries.

Kropotkin said:

Your post has been reinstated. I checked it on my phone, and wanted to take a look to make sure it didn't contravene my editorial guidelines (aka "do I like the tone of it").



Might I suggest you start your own MotoGP site? You seem to know exactly how the entire world works, and it would be a strong counterpoint to my own "Dorna ....-sucking" site. Hell, if you post anything interesting, I might even link to it.

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Just curious, why was it taken down to start with. Had he used the phrase "Dorna ....-sucking" i could MAYBE see why, but it appears you were throttling dissent.

povol said:

Just curious, why was it taken down to start with. Had he used the phrase "Dorna ....-sucking" i could MAYBE see why, but it appears you were throttling dissent.

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I have a massively hypersensitive definition of trolling, which encompasses what everyone would accept as trolling, but also includes posts which I think may see the debate descend into recrimination and abuse (e.g. "well, maybe once he has nine titles," or "we see his real talent on the Ducati"). I read MA's post on my phone, late at night, and did not have time to judge it properly, and know whether to delete it for trolling, edit the unnecessarily offensive parts or leave it as it stood. So I unpublished it (to avoid responses and a possible flame war), then took a look at it in the morning, and found it wasn't quite as bad as I feared. So I put it back.



This is something I do commonly. It is not so much that I am trying to throttle dissent - though I might add that it's MY ............. SITE AND I'LL DO AS I ............. WELL PLEASE - as trying to avoid the comments on the site looking like Crash or MCN. That really is very, very, very boring. I would also add that by removing posts from my site (which I do a lot) I am not killing free speech, there is a great big internet out there for people to post their thoughts. I am just trying to keep the trolls and childish arguments at bay.



One thing, though. I welcome dissent on my site. I do not welcome insults. There is a fine line between the two sometimes.

Mental Anarchist said:

We are all wrong from time to time just as we are all uninteresting at times too. In this case your readers tend to agree with my comments and from the general tone of comments many of them are just as vocal and negative the histeria surrounding Marquez.

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To be honest i often agree with mental and this time i agree as well,MM in my opinion is the real thing and as i have stated a few times on here he will win in his first year but the hype at the moment is not justified,he has done nothing in MGP but is allready the goat,if other rookies are going quicker then that is the headline.

Kropotkin said:

I have a massively hypersensitive definition of trolling, which encompasses what everyone would accept as trolling, but also includes posts which I think may see the debate descend into recrimination and abuse (e.g. "well, maybe once he has nine titles," or "we see his real talent on the Ducati"). I read MA's post on my phone, late at night, and did not have time to judge it properly, and know whether to delete it for trolling, edit the unnecessarily offensive parts or leave it as it stood. So I unpublished it (to avoid responses and a possible flame war), then took a look at it in the morning, and found it wasn't quite as bad as I feared. So I put it back.



This is something I do commonly. It is not so much that I am trying to throttle dissent - though I might add that it's MY ............. SITE AND I'LL DO AS I ............. WELL PLEASE - as trying to avoid the comments on the site looking like Crash or MCN. That really is very, very, very boring. I would also add that by removing posts from my site (which I do a lot) I am not killing free speech, there is a great big internet out there for people to post their thoughts. I am just trying to keep the trolls and childish arguments at bay.



One thing, though. I welcome dissent on my site. I do not welcome insults. There is a fine line between the two sometimes.

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One thing you dont know about me Krop is i have two forums that have nothing to do with MGP and even though i am founder of both i leave moderating to three balanced people who have no axe to grind and MODERATE and i only step in on certain issues when its realy nessasary, ive found that ITS MY MOTHER ....... SITE AND ILL DO WHAT I WANT does not lend it self to a very balanced forum.

thedeal said:

One thing you dont know about me Krop is i have two forums that have nothing to do with MGP and even though i am founder of both i leave moderating to three balanced people who have no axe to grind and MODERATE and i only step in on certain issues when its realy nessasary, ive found that ITS MY MOTHER ....... SITE AND ILL DO WHAT I WANT does not lend it self to a very balanced forum.

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The forum is different. The comments section of a site is a very different animal. Forums are a place where you have conversations, the main site is a place where I lecture my readers, and they are free to make polite comments. Forums are a democracy, the main site is China, if you like.

Mental Anarchist said:

I haven't done the research but I certainly don't recall that being overwhelmingly the case. I think that in Stoners case on the Ducati that could be argued.



In this case we are not waiting for future sessions. Marquez's brilliance is being shouted from the roof tops immediately with everyone else's efforts being ignored as well as the quality of equipment they are producing very similar results on.



But none of this is new. Rossi was reported as a god whilst winning on best quality equipment without any credit going to the equipment yet riders like Stoner only won because of equipment advantage despite that equipment being a POS. now we have Marquez doing well on best quality equipment and being praised whilst Iannone is circulating nearly on the same pace on a bike that is more than triple the gap slower.



That is the argument. In my opinion the last thing MotoGP needs is 99% of the media output being focused on one rider. As I have argued repeatedly, this is the reason there is no revenue in MotoGP.



What will improve MotoGP is a broader focus which will lead to a broader revenue distribution and ultimately a more competitive grid.



I believe that journalist like David should be thinking about these things because ultimately his success is tied to the success of MotoGP. David will probably argue though that he can make more from pandering to the sheep who just believe the narrative that they are feed. In the short term he is no doubt correct.

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I do think Iannone is impressive on the Ducati. He has tested it before though and conditions were dicey at the Valencia test meaning that noone got the opportunity to really get comfortable. You could say that Iannone had a head start.



Having said that, my view is that the test was inconclusive to really draw anything much about anyone's performance. I'm not going to throne anyone at this stage.



I know what you are saying about the media beating up one rider and that not being desirable. People are keen to see riders challenge Pedrosa and Lorenzo for the wins, to know that someone else might be able to perform at that level. I hope that MM does as that will be more interesting than having wins split between 2 riders. I think Iannone has the speed to but I'm not sure about the consistency. I also think he's got a tough job to get there on the Ducati. I can't see him getting there in 2013 unless they have a breakthrough with that bike.

woody996 said:

I do think Iannone is impressive on the Ducati. He has tested it before though and conditions were dicey at the Valencia test meaning that noone got the opportunity to really get comfortable. You could say that Iannone had a head start.



Having said that, my view is that the test was inconclusive to really draw anything much about anyone's performance. I'm not going to throne anyone at this stage.



I know what you are saying about the media beating up one rider and that not being desirable. People are keen to see riders challenge Pedrosa and Lorenzo for the wins, to know that someone else might be able to perform at that level. I hope that MM does as that will be more interesting than having wins split between 2 riders. I think Iannone has the speed to but I'm not sure about the consistency. I also think he's got a tough job to get there on the Ducati. I can't see him getting there in 2013 unless they have a breakthrough with that bike.

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Nice response.



It could be argued that giving Iannone a 2 year head start would still not be enough as I don't recall any time in the last 2 years Rossi getting with in 0.43 of Pedrosa or Stoner on a dry track.



I think MotoGP needs guys who can inconsistently put it on the podium or in the back of the grid. Predictability is not something we should be hoping for. An inconsistent guy is perfect for a satellite team because if a satellite rider was consistently taking points off the factory riders then we would no doubt quickly see their bike hobbled and a return to predictable racing.



In my opinion the likes of Iannone bring far more value to the game than someone like Marquez.

Mental Anarchist said:

Nice response.



It could be argued that giving Iannone a 2 year head start would still not be enough as I don't recall any time in the last 2 years Rossi getting with in 0.43 of Pedrosa or Stoner on a dry track.



I think MotoGP needs guys who can inconsistently put it on the podium or in the back of the grid. Predictability is not something we should be hoping for. An inconsistent guy is perfect for a satellite team because if a satellite rider was consistently taking points off the factory riders then we would no doubt quickly see their bike hobbled and a return to predictable racing.



In my opinion the likes of Iannone bring far more value to the game than someone like Marquez.

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That's a really good point. One of the biggest losses with the loss of qualifiers was the ability of a rider with a brain-out QP ability (Nicky Hayden, I'm looking at you) to put a bike much further up the order than it had any business being, making riders with a faster race set up work harder to get past them. Tire competition also promotes this, with different tire concepts working differently throughout the race.

woody996 said:

No tears. I'm a fan. He needs to pull his head in at times on the track but at least he doesn't whine in every interview.

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Well, one thing I won't miss about Stoner is the way he can win a race and still go to the interviewers and talk about how he was 'struggling' and how bitching about chatter and low grip on the left side of the rear tire and arm pump and his nipples were too cold and all the bs he comes up with, meanwhile he just won the race with a 9 second gap to Lorenzo who says everything on the bike was perfect but he couldn't keep up.

elitemafia said:

......... talk about how he was 'struggling' and how bitching about chatter and low grip on the left side of the rear tire ....

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maybe he is a perfectionist

Jesus. A few thoughts, Krops, ur running ur site fine, i've accepted the mild dictatorship for the benefit of keeping things moving along. I go there to read what i need to know, i come here to offer my opinion (much more fun). Again, its the beauty of this site, PS, to allow everybody to speak their mind (its not that hard to skip over all the ....).



Regarding the series. What is frustrating is peeps talking about results, and more importantly, the championship as if its a real competition between all the capable riders that would challenge for the title. Ducati is a piece of .... compared to Jap factories; speaking of them in terms of championship makes as much sense as comparing them to CRTs. Its a 4 bike championship, period. The other god Jap satellites are there for filler, and test platform. The rest, a farce to appear its a full grid, starting with DuCRTs.



Marc is on one of four competitive bikes. U want to get an idea if he is an "alien" as many are declaring, put the kid on a Ducati. Then we can talk about how he stacks up to Crazy J, Pirro, Valentino. Im not fooled, but im amazed by those who are. Again, there are 4 championship bikes, 4 other fillers to that championship (making their riders 'seem' better than everybody else behind them). The rest of the riders, some are truly front runner worthy and just as good but on .... machines (u fuckers will see will Valentinos contrived league move to M1). The new string of rookies (last year and next) will be as good as the seat they've acquired, Marc got the best and will be the only one of consequence for our "expert" media to write about, and like Dorna, shove down our throat (well, Bradley will get lots of space too, for the same reason Cal did year one)...

gekko1ro said:

maybe he is a perfectionist

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Yeah, I agree with this assessment. It did sound like he was always bitching about something (even when he was winning). But, I think he was always striving to get everything perfect or looking for ways to improve...

Jumkie said:

................



Regarding the series. What is frustrating is peeps talking about results, and more importantly, the championship as if its a real competition between all the capable riders that would challenge for the title. Ducati is a piece of .... compared to Jap factories; speaking of them in terms of championship makes as much sense as comparing them to CRTs. Its a 4 bike championship, period. The other god Jap satellites are there for filler, and test platform. The rest, a farce to appear its a full grid, starting with DuCRTs.



Marc is on one of four competitive bikes. U want to get an idea if he is an "alien" as many are declaring, put the kid on a Ducati. Then we can talk about how he stacks up to Crazy J, Pirro, Valentino. Im not fooled, but im amazed by those who are. Again, there are 4 championship bikes, 4 other fillers to that championship (making their riders 'seem' better than everybody else behind them). The rest of the riders, some are truly front runner worthy and just as good but on .... machines (u fuckers will see will Valentinos contrived league move to M1). The new string of rookies (last year and next) will be as good as the seat they've acquired, Marc got the best and will be the only one of consequence for our "expert" media to write about, and like Dorna, shove down our throat (well, Bradley will get lots of space too, for the same reason Cal did year one)...

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Jum you have to be more careful with the inevitable pitfalls in your flawed vision.

The best factory bikes are always given to first-tier riders, but even then for some of these riders it's difficult or impossible to win a title (Pedro has yet to win one; Dovi didn't win much on the Repsol Honda; Spies didn't win much either on the works Yamaha). We have more examples of that. So it is NOT sufficient to get the first tier equipment and be a first tier rider to become a serious title contender. That "something more" is needed. Marquez is getting the best of everything, but he is one of the best riders around and almost certainly has that something more. At his age only Valentino had won as much as him. He's the new Rossi (so you'll hate him as well), what we need now is the new Stoner (that will be more difficult to come about).



Then regarding Ducati, they are doing worse than Honda and Yamaha but certainly better than two other Japanese manufacturers that gave up after arriving behind Ducati for several seasons.

With his wild style, single mindedness, speed and raw aggression marquez will surpass casey's reputation. He ain't gonna be a Rossi clone; but he is the golden boy.

I think MM will be okay but the test didn't mean anything. It's just like the Duc looking good when the track conditions are ..... It isn't great in poor conditions, the other bikes simply can't exploit there supiority. You put Pedro or CS on the RC in good conditions and they destroy those test lap times.